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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Going second   Going second I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08 2011, 10:30

This is one of the things I hate - going second in a game. I automatically reserve everything but eventually get mauled....It has its advanages and disadvantages but our wet-paper planes just cannot with stand around of full-on fire.


How do you deal with this? Or what are some tactics I can concider. Are they opponent specfic too?



Thanks
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Going second   Going second I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08 2011, 11:35

Well, You can always pick Vect. 50% chance for siezing may be nasty if Your enemy deploys poorly. Kinda like trading baseball glove for bat, then hitting guy in the face and taking both.

As for countering going second... I guess proper deploying (LoS blocking + range), Night Shields can do well.
Also specific builds like WWP and "Duke Drop" don't care. Malys may be useful too.


I actually wouldn't mind going second, nor with Orks/DE, not with SM "Armored Fist" in most cases. IMHO this is cruicial only for Tau and IG to go first.

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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Going second   Going second I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08 2011, 14:05

I don't think going second automatically equals reserving everything. There are definitely certain opponents where they will have very little that can reach out and touch your skimmers that first turn. This also depends on board size and terrain. We normally play 4'x6' tables (which I think is the tournament norm) and at least 25% terrain (usually more around 30/40).

Most likely your opponent will space out his units with good firing lanes across the board. If he does this, there should be 1 side you can concentrate your deployment in that's farthest away from most of the AT he possess (including NS reduces his threat bubble drastically). There is no reason NOT to group your units as much as possible, providing everything with screening cover saves, unless your opponent is blast weapon heavy. If he does spread his deployment, this is awesome for you, as now your concentrated force can punish the closer board half, and roll down the rest after.

If your opponent groups to one side, simply pick the other side, with as much intervening terrain as possible.

Alternatively, your opponent may deploy centrally with the majority of his force. If this is the case I would consider splitting your force, placing concentrations in each corner. Most likely some of his AT will be out of range, and since his concentration is so centralized, you can converge on one target while he will have to decide what to split in each direction.

In the end, concentrating your deployment, as far as possible from his deployment, with as much intervening terrain is the best you can do. Again, DON'T do this if he can throw out a lot of high ST blast weapons.

Regardless I don't think reserving everything is the best option in this situation. It allows him to spread out and increase his threat bubble, while also minimizing the number of targets he must face at any one time.

There are only certain armies I would consider full reserving against, for example, drop pod/daemons/etc. These armies have a huge amount of initial mobility, being able to start anywhere, but then suffer from footing it the rest of the game, meaning that its easier to avoid some threats while neutralizing others. I also don't like Vect as an option. Generals tend to "count" on his ability and end up deploying things less defensively in order to get good firing "when" they seize. Then they fail their seize roll and the game just became that much easier for their opponent. If they deploy defensively not counting on the seize, they are now less likely to be in a position where their range will be effective and must now move into the enemy's threat bubble to attack with some units probably doing nothing.

Just curious, but what armies do you face, what do they consist of, etc? If you let us know we could probably help out more Very Happy
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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Going second   Going second I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08 2011, 20:21

Quote :
Just curious, but what armies do you face, what do they consist of, etc? If you let us know we could probably help out more
You can help me with deamons, since I have no exp with them and my friend who plays them is back in our club.

He usually fields:
Plauge bearers-5 x2
some blood crushers/seekers
DP with doom bolt
tzinch greater deamon

I know basics: dont cc with it....just mow down with splinters but my reserve rolls are so f* up I dont want to hold back my army.

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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Going second   Going second I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08 2011, 21:31

@GrenAcid wrote:
Quote :
Just curious, but what armies do you face, what do they consist of, etc? If you let us know we could probably help out more
You can help me with deamons, since I have no exp with them and my friend who plays them is back in our club.

He usually fields:
Plauge bearers-5 x2
some blood crushers/seekers
DP with doom bolt
tzinch greater deamon

I know basics: dont cc with it....just mow down with splinters but my reserve rolls are so f* up I dont want to hold back my army.

First, daemons only deploy half their force. My guess is that he would deploy his crushers/seekers, greater daemon, and prince first. dropping the plague bearers to objective grab later.

I really feel that daemons are one of those armies where reserving is a big bonus. What most people don't realize is that with a reserve army shouldn't commit an attack until the 3rd/4th turn. The mobility of our army makes up for the late attack, while the delay allows a more substantial force to enter the board. Moving flat-out, hugging board edges and using intervening terrain should allow you to avoid taking many (if any) casualties.

That said, if you really don't want to reserve, attempt to deploy in a location that limits the number of firing angles towards your units. Deploying in a corner with a piece of terrain blocking a good portion of the table is preferable. Daemons have very limited range with shooting, in this case only the DP and GD. Limiting what they can see/shoot at is always a bonus. Putting raiders in front of other units (hiding venoms/bikes/etc.) and giving them Night Shields creates the possibility of his Doom Bolters not even being able to hit them (24" range - 6" NSs for 18" range) due to reduced range, and deep-strike scattering. If supplied with only 2/3 possible lanes, he will most likely separate his units to ensure visibility. This is great, you can now use your mobility to swarm one lane, demolish it, and then focus on the next. If he deploys them together, not only is there a greater chance of misshap, but now you have room to maneuver and shoot at him from range. If he attempts to deep-strike closer for a next turn assault, simply flat-out and fly over him if you feel that there is too much to shoot. Buying 2 turns of shooting in the future for the cost of 1 turn shooting now.

Now, with everything starting on the table, you are basically guaranteeing that he has a target he will most likely destroy. He knows where you are and can deep-strike accordingly. Either he will be within range to shoot something down, or assault something that tries to flee over him. Feeding a unit to slow his approach is usually worth it in this instance.

Now full reserves allows you to take the initiative, by bring on units where you want. Daemons do not usually have enough models to cover the entire board edge, and with a 24" initial move (even aethersails might be considered, though obviously that would be tailoring for daemons Wink) you should clear, or avoid most return fire/combat. Combine your flat out units with what comes on turn 3, and you should be able to start destroying.

As for tactics vs daemons, definitely look at Hashmal's opponent thread:

http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t407-hashmal-takes-on-the-universe-a-compendium-for-the-aspiring-archon-to-destroy-every-army-in-the-game
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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Going second   Going second I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08 2011, 21:46

Thx that brings more light on, and I had read Hashmals thread.

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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Going second   Going second I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 09 2011, 03:01

@GrenAcid wrote:
Thx that brings more light on, and I had read Hashmals thread.

Yea, hes got some good stuff, best to learn from a player how to beat his own army, and no problem. For Dark Eldar deployment is pretty key. Having played daemons a lot (my best friends tournament ready army) that is how I usually deploy. Now, its not always the same for everyone and depends a lot on your tactics and ability to roll well for reserves. haha. At some point I will start a new topic detailing Dark Eldar deployment as I believe it is very important for our army, thats if I ever find time...haha
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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Going second   Going second I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 09 2011, 03:16

I've never played Daemons but when I do I know know what to expect.
My friends play Tau, Blood Angels, GK, Orks, Eldar - its really only when I'm up against my friends Mech Tau that going 2nd really sucks. Or enough hardcore shooty army (Guard, etc)

@ 1K he brings 2 Hammerheads w/ Railguns, Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon and 3 suits, with plas/missile. He's got full range and enough to bring down all my heavies on Turn 1.

Against BA, GK going 2nd I'm OK with, because I can turbo everything up the flanks turn 1. I normally split my force and take both flanks, to force deepstrikers/drop-pods to land in the centre of the table. I try to keep my Warrior Raiders and Trueborn Venoms about 18" outside the centre, so I can move then shoot on Turn 2. After then, it all comes down to the dice gods Wink
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SinisterPlank
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PostSubject: Re: Going second   Going second I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 16 2011, 09:25

If the game is objectives, I always aim for second player. I think it's very important for a Dark Eldar player to have the second turn, in order to snatch objectives late in the game. For killpoints, the benefit is that you can respond to your opponents deployment, wich I enjoy, but other than that, no real benefit.

As for deployment, it's all about hiding as most models in or behind cover as possible. You've already seen where his anti-tank stuff are starting out, make sure there are LoS blocker between you and them. Nightshields will take out alot of the first turn fire aswell.

Dark Eldar is all about playing the board as much as your opponent. Where as a marines player can pretty much just carve a straight path to the nearest enemy unit and kill it, Dark Eldar needs to play the terrain, and move around the enemy in a much more extensive fashion. Learn that, and you've learnt Dark Eldar.
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