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 First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts

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TDF
Slave
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PostSubject: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 13:00

Hello everyone !

I'm new to the hobby and read the forum since some weeks, finally decided to play with a friend who will have chaos.

We are both kinda noobs.

I made a list, please feel free to tell me what you think it's worth

9 wyches   90
4*incubus with klaivex, bloodstone 184
raider with dark lance 60

haemonculus + liquifier run 60
Succubus, shardnet and impaler, haywire grenades 75

5 kabalists  45
venom + splinter canon+ nightshield 75


5 kabalists  45
venom + splinter canon+ nightshield 75

2 beastmaster 24
2 Razorwing flock 30
4 khymerae 48


total 493



I'm not sure about the beastmaster part, not sure also for the liquifier gun. I don't really have a plan anyhow...


Last edited by TDF on Sat Aug 24 2013, 00:36; edited 1 time in total
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ravenizer
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 14:10

First of all, DE has many specific names, that you need to get hang on Smile(like my opponent is always confused, which is which, when I'm talking about shadowfield, nightshield, and flickerfield). There is no such thing as shardcannon. You either mean Shardcarabine, or Splinter Cannon. Venoms with additional Splinter cannon and nightshields is realy standard. Liquifier on homonculus is also not bad pick. Raiders can't have either shardcarabines or splinter cannon ;)Only either Dark lance, or Dissie (3x str 5 ap 2). General consensus is that you need lances pretty much to deal with vehicles.

beasts without baron as HQ are meh. They loose juciy Hit & run, grenades, which will make them strike at Ini 1, and +1 to cover from his stealth. Also, I played with beast unit in 1k points, and from my experience, it's a bit costy counter-charge unit in this point range (often resulted in 1/4 cost of my army staying in the back doing nothing). So cheap beasts are good at 1k, but not under that. Instead, you could squeeze in a ravager or a unit of Reavers with Anti-tank weapons, becouse you're lacking in that part here.

If you're taking wyches as CC unit, don't realy bother :)They are meh in CC, especialy, if you will face CSM. If you equip them with haywire nades on the other hand, they fit perfect role of anti-tank.

Hope it helps Smile
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TDF
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 14:56

Thanks a lot for your answer !

Sorry for the names, my codex is in french and I have sometimes to make guesses when I'm not really sure.

So, by shardcanon I meant splinter canon, nightshield is the right word I believe.

I'll keep my venom+ kabalists warriors then !


For the raider, I meant dissie. I thought it was good versus high armored infantry, since I'm quite confident he will not take a vehicule. But since I'm not 100% sure, a dark lance may be a safer choice.

I will follow you on the beastmasters and will find something to replace them.

About the Wyches, my idea was to put them in the raider with the haemonculus to get FnP and to get throught the armor with a high number of A.
What makes them bad against CSM? Are they too resistant ? Is there a good assault unit that comes to mind to replace them ?

Thanks again for your advices Smile
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ravenizer
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 15:19

@TDF wrote:
About the Wyches, my idea was to put them in the raider with the haemonculus to get FnP and to get throught the armor with a high number of A.
What makes them bad against CSM? Are they too resistant ? Is there a good assault unit that comes to mind to replace them ?
If he takes cultists as only infantry (which I doubt I think) Wyches wouldn't be that bad. But generaly it's well... They have combat drugs, which can make them better obviously, but let's say you get the one that makes your run better. Than you're hitting on 4s, and wounding on 5s/6s depending if he takes bikes / plague marines / prince etc etc. Let's say your raider didn't blow up, and you survived the overwatch with 0 casualities (I hope you see number of problems wyches enounters here Razz) with 9 wyches, you'll get 27 attacks, statisticaly ~14 will get through, and vs regular CSM you can score like 4-5 wounds. This ammount of wounds isn't as easy to get through a 3+ as you might think it is. Beside, if you'll run them in a raider with sails, that wants to get as close as possible, he can blast it, and charge the inner guys w/o problem, making it even harder with less attacks. If he will stay inside cover however, you'll be hitting at I1, after his troops, and even regular CSM might just make it a bad day. So many situations, where wyches have an uphill battle.

Wyches are good for stalling the combat. Especialy for terminators and the like, since termies don't have much attacks, and constant 4+ inv is pesky for them.

There are different playstyles. Most common are 5 wyches in venoms with haywires, only to hunt vehicles, or just 5 warrior with/without blaster inside venoms. I'd just go with another venom with warriors / or some trueborn in a venom, like 3x blaster trueborn or 4x blaster trueborn if points allow. But thats me. If you want to use a raider, you could go with warriors inside, drop sail upgrade, and have a gunboat. Generaly I'm not a fan of such boats, mainly becouse I learned, that actualy, DE transports don't serve the transportation role Wink


Last edited by ravenizer on Fri Aug 23 2013, 20:28; edited 1 time in total
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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 17:57

Pretty good list! The Beastmasters are okay in small games but if you're going to replace them then I would recommend Reavers because mobility is very strong in small games.

Bonne chance!
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Obyiscus
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 19:07

[quote="ravenizer"]
@TDF wrote:
If he will stay inside cover however, you'll be hitting at I1, after his troops, and even regular CSM might just make it a bad day.
Wyches come standard with plasma grenades, so they don't have a problem charging in difficult terrain (initiative wise). The rest of your points are all valid
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ravenizer
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 20:22

@Obyiscus wrote:
@ravenizer wrote:
@TDF wrote:
If he will stay inside cover however, you'll be hitting at I1, after his troops, and even regular CSM might just make it a bad day.
Wyches come standard with plasma grenades, so they don't have a problem charging in difficult terrain (initiative wise). The rest of your points are all valid
My bad, somehow I still had those beasts in my mind. Mea culpa :X
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 24 2013, 00:40

I made some little changes, but I now have very few figs on the board !

4*incubus with klaivex, bloodstone 184
raider with dark lance 60

Succubus, shardnet and impaler, haywire grenades 75

5 kabalists  45
venom + splinter canon+ nightshield 75


5 kabalists  45
venom + splinter canon+ nightshield 75

total 493

Incubus seems really good against MEQ, and bloodstone seems nice too. The succubus adds a little AT to the incubus unit with haywire, and also plasma grenades. Shardnet and impaler is to face is commander, as he will be obliged to challenge me I believe ?

The drawback of this is a true lack of numbers. What do you think of it ?


I considered the reavers also but I feel like a little bit of hand to hand combat Razz

Thank you for the bonne chance Wink
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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 24 2013, 03:02

Do you own, or can you represent, a Ravager? It's got more reliable AT and even if your friend doesn't have any vehicles then the Ravager is still pretty good against Marines or high point models.

I would say that in a small game you probably don't need the night shields as much and you're already pretty tight on points.

Incubi are a hit or miss unit, especially in small games where it's hard to afford a Phantasm Grenade Launcher. I wouldn't give them any upgrades if you do include them (drop the Klaivex).

Low numbers won't be terrible at 500 pts, you just can't feed him easy Venoms. Stay out of his way and play for the long game.
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 24 2013, 10:02

Figs are (not really) an issue because I don't have any Razz

Just started DE, moved from necron (I didn't enjoy it) and I already have just a single squad of necron warriors. I play with whatever I can Very Happy Can't buy anything since I'm saving my money for a trip to Japan Smile So I can put every unit on the table Razz

For the ravager, I thought about it. But I thought it might be a little too overpowered ? That's the first thing that came to my mind, but maybe he will be angry after that Very Happy But yes, it's a good idea.

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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 24 2013, 10:21

Incubi are realy good vs CSM, but they can easily get expensive. Klaivex is good in higher points, to accept unwanted chalanges, but in 500 points, there is no need for that, so you can drop blood stone and klaivex for more points. Also in 500 points, if you want to run incubi, than they don't need realy CC HQ. You can go with homonculus without upgrades (will save you another 25 points) and it will grant them Feel no pain with first paintoken, making it at least a bit safer to run them.

As previous ppl said, nightshields are not realy required in this point format, so another 20 points save. With this you could afford 3 reaver bikes with a heatlance, to annoy your opponent and have a distraction unit. Venoms with kabalites + bikes + incubi seem a decent list to get a feel of DE flavor. But still I'd oppose for taking incubi in 500 point format :X

About ravagers: This is what DE are about. We want to be overpowered. We die easily, but we hit hard. Go and teach that your opponent !
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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 25 2013, 17:45

@TDF wrote:
For the ravager, I thought about it. But I thought it might be a little too overpowered ? That's the first thing that came to my mind, but maybe he will be angry after that :DBut yes, it's a good idea.
Generally there isn't too much that people consider "overpowered" so I wouldn't worry too much about it, especially if you're just starting out. Ravagers are one of our most solid units, so it's rare to see a list without them. The amount of damage they do isn't incredible, but they're inexpensive and fill a vital role.
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 26 2013, 14:38

Ok so I put a ravager on the table instead of raider+incubi+sucubus, and I take off the nightshields.

That leave me with some points (can't make the count right now but around 155 points), and I have to take an HQ with a unit with him.

I considered haemonculus with wracks, but with no transport I think it's quite useless ! I find it difficult to put the HQ somewhere in that case... What would you do ?
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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 26 2013, 22:42

If that's what you like, it sounds good to me. Haemonculus + 3 Wracks + Venom + extra Cannon = 145 pts. Can add Liquifier Gun for 10 pts. I'm not sure where that leaves you but that's 155 pts if that's what you're looking for!
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 27 2013, 09:30

If you will take those 2 venoms with kabalites and a ravager, you'll have spare 175 points.

For that, I'd go with 3x Trueborn, 2x Splinter cannon inside venom with Hamonculus, costing 171 points total. This grants you way more firepower, and homonuculus works just as a filler HQ with extra feel no pain for those trueborn.
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PostSubject: Re: First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts   First game as DE VS CSM 500 pts I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 28 2013, 08:45

Well thank you very much for all your advices everyone !

I'll keep you in touch for the debriefing of the battle which have been reported but it will probably be in one or two weeks Wink

Cheers !
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