THE DARK CITY
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.



 
HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityRegisterLog in

 

 Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar

Go down 
AuthorMessage
Eldritchwarmaster84
Kabalite Warrior
Eldritchwarmaster84

Posts : 111
Join date : 2013-07-19

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 02:00

After playing countless games with AI like Splinterborn venoms i believe jetbikes are top tier AI against infantry. Heres the reason why For example

9 Reaver Jetbikes with 3 Cluster caltrops

Thats 9D3 str 4 ap - hits on top of 3D6 str 6 ap - hits
On average i get 11 str 6 hits and 15 str 4 hits
Against Fire warriors Average: 23 saves
Against Space marines : 17 saves
Against T6 MC: 10 saves
Against orks, tyranid gaunts, IG: 21 saves

Now question would be would this unit excel best at top tier AI?
Or something else is better. Bring your opinions please lol! 
Back to top Go down
fuhrmaaj
Kabalite Warrior
fuhrmaaj

Posts : 149
Join date : 2013-08-07

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 07:13

In the future I should do stuff like this in a Google doc so people can check my math. What I've done was figured out the points cost of 3 Reavers with 1 Caltrop; 10 Warriors with 1 Splinter Cannon; and 5 Warriors in a Venom with an extra Splinter Cannon. Then I figured out how many kills each of them would get, divided by the cost to field them, then found the most efficient weapon and divided every value by that. The results are listed here:

Reavers with Cluster Caltrop

Efficiency no save6+ save5+ save4+ save3+ save2+ save
T3 0.730.610.480.360.240.12
T4 0.550.450.360.270.180.09
T5 0.360.300.240.180.120.06
T6+T7 0.180.150.120.090.060.03
T8+ 0.000.000.000.000.000.00
Warriors with Splinter Cannon and Warriors in Venom

WarriorsWarriors
Efficiency min max min max
5+ or worse0.54 1.00 0.64 0.83
4+ save0.27 0.50 0.32 0.42
3+ save0.18 0.33 0.21 0.28
2+ save0.09 0.17 0.11 0.14
Where Warrior "min" is moving and shooting at 24" and Warrior "max" is stationary and shooting at 12"; Venom "min" is shooting at 24" and Venom "max" is shooting at 12".

From the chart, we see that the most efficient AI fire comes from stationary Warriors shooting at a target with a 5+ save from 12" away. Everything else is a percentage of the efficiency of that shooting.

I don't know how to colour things with code, but Warriors are most efficient against: GEQ, Fire Warriors, Orks, MEQ, TEQ and probably a lot of other things too. Even if you compare Venoms to Reavers, the Venoms are consistently better as well.



I think the real advantage of Reavers is their versatility. I probably wouldn't upgrade the Cluster Caltrop and would instead get heat lances or blasters. In this way the Reavers can be AI with Bladevane, AT with weapon upgrades, survivability with good T and Jink, and can also go into assault in a pinch not to mention the board control they provide with their threat range.
Back to top Go down
Vasara
Incognito assault marine
Vasara

Posts : 1160
Join date : 2012-08-22
Location : Vantaa

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 07:26

@Eldritchwarmaster84 wrote:
After playing countless games with AI like Splinterborn venoms i believe jetbikes are top tier AI against infantry. Heres the reason why For example

9 Reaver Jetbikes with 3 Cluster caltrops

Thats 9D3 str 4 ap - hits on top of 3D6 str 6 ap - hits
On average i get 11 str 6 hits and 15 str 4 hits
Against Fire warriors Average: 23 saves
Against Space marines : 17 saves
Against T6 MC: 10 saves
Against orks, tyranid gaunts, IG: 21 saves

Now question would be would this unit excel best at top tier AI?
Or something else is better. Bring your opinions please lol! 
9 reavers with cluster caltrops get 6D3 S4 +3D6 S6. Caltrops change their bladevanes to stroger ones not add on top of the S4 ones.

_________________
New Dark Eldar in Tournaments: Wins: 17 Draws: 2 Losses: 8
ETC 2013 DE/Eldar player (4th)
ETC 2014 Coach (16th)
ETC 2015 Captain, Eldar/DE (10th)
Painting blog


Last edited by Vasara on Fri Aug 23 2013, 07:59; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Mushkilla
Arena Champion
Mushkilla

Posts : 4017
Join date : 2012-07-16
Location : Toroid Arena

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 07:53

@Eldritchwarmaster84 wrote:
Thats 9D3 str 4 ap - hits on top of 3D6 str 6 ap - hits
That's wrong caltrops replace Bladevanes. You would get 6D3 S4 hits and 3D6 S6 hits.

Reavers are about flexibility, caltrops just funnel them into bladevaning all the time, which is a waste in my opinion. Good opponents won't let you bladevane without consequence.

_________________
Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Pragmatic Realspace Raider Series


“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell
Back to top Go down
Malevolent-Storm
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 59
Join date : 2012-12-07
Location : Houston, TX

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 14:17

Not to be too technical - but all of you are mistaken.  The army list allows you to simply add caltrops; they do not replace.  However, the write-up on page 29 says that what adding caltrops does is change the damage done by the bladevanes (i.e. a weapon upgrade).  So it's more like replacement than an added weapon and it's 3d6 S6 hits just like Mush and Vasara said.

I think.

_________________
Dan

Kabal of the Malevolent Storm


Last edited by Malevolent-Storm on Fri Aug 23 2013, 16:29; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Fixed goofy italics screw-up)
Back to top Go down
http://malevolent-dice.blogspot.com
Vasara
Incognito assault marine
Vasara

Posts : 1160
Join date : 2012-08-22
Location : Vantaa

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 15:12

@Malevolent-Storm wrote:


...

I think.[/i][/i]
cheers

_________________
New Dark Eldar in Tournaments: Wins: 17 Draws: 2 Losses: 8
ETC 2013 DE/Eldar player (4th)
ETC 2014 Coach (16th)
ETC 2015 Captain, Eldar/DE (10th)
Painting blog
Back to top Go down
fuhrmaaj
Kabalite Warrior
fuhrmaaj

Posts : 149
Join date : 2013-08-07

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 18:05

@Malevolent-Storm wrote:
Not to be too technical - but all of you are mistaken.  The army list allows you to simply add caltrops; they do not replace.  However, the write-up on page 29 says that what adding caltrops does is change the damage done by the bladevanes (i.e. a weapon upgrade).  So it's more like replacement than an added weapon and it's 3d6 S6 hits just like Mush and Vasara said.

I think.
That's too technical for me. The description makes it sound like how psybolts work in the grey knight army. The damage the bladevanes do is changed from d3 to d6, weird thing to nitpick though.
Back to top Go down
Malevolent-Storm
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 59
Join date : 2012-12-07
Location : Houston, TX

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 18:16

I made the point because, if you're like me, you might have flipped to the unit list in the back of the book when you saw the O.P. and seen that the caltrops were an add-on and not a replacement. And you'd be thinking, "Great VECT! What if it does ADD a weapon! Have I been doing it wrong all this time?" If that's all you saw, you'd be right their with the O.P. It's only when you then turn to page 29 that you realize the add-on simply modifies the bladevanes.

Dan

_________________
Dan

Kabal of the Malevolent Storm
Back to top Go down
http://malevolent-dice.blogspot.com
MFive
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 139
Join date : 2013-01-23
Location : Inside You.

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 19:24

the unit of 9 reavers with 3 caltrops and 6 bladevanes but that is otherwise bare, would yield around 5-6 dead marines assuming you get 2 hits with the normal vanes and 4 with the caltrops and cost 258 pts

2 splinterborn squads(trueborn with 2x splinter cannon in venom with 2x splinter cannons) kills around 8 marines for 4 points less, not to mention at a longer range and the ability to take down MC with them.

the splinterborn have always been my go-to squad for AI, though reavers are fun to use


Last edited by MFive on Fri Aug 23 2013, 19:32; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
MFive
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 139
Join date : 2013-01-23
Location : Inside You.

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 19:27

@Malevolent-Storm wrote:

I think.
i tried this once, but i soon regretted it Smile 
Back to top Go down
Malevolent-Storm
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 59
Join date : 2012-12-07
Location : Houston, TX

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 19:38

@MFive wrote:
@Malevolent-Storm wrote:

I think.
i tried this once, but i soon regretted it Smile 
Indeed; it makes my head hurt when I do it. And then there is all the smoke and noise....

_________________
Dan

Kabal of the Malevolent Storm
Back to top Go down
http://malevolent-dice.blogspot.com
Eldritchwarmaster84
Kabalite Warrior
Eldritchwarmaster84

Posts : 111
Join date : 2013-07-19

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 23 2013, 21:23

Hmmmm never thought it would replace i thought it went on top with bladevanes so really i did everything wrong then my bad just wording is not cooperating with me
Back to top Go down
fuhrmaaj
Kabalite Warrior
fuhrmaaj

Posts : 149
Join date : 2013-08-07

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 24 2013, 02:14

@Malevolent-Storm wrote:
I made the point because, if you're like me, you might have flipped to the unit list in the back of the book when you saw the O.P. and seen that the caltrops were an add-on and not a replacement.  And you'd be thinking, "Great VECT!  What if it does ADD a weapon!  Have I been doing it wrong all this time?"  If that's all you saw, you'd be right their with the O.P.  It's only when you then turn to page 29 that you realize the add-on simply modifies the bladevanes.

Dan
Even if that were true, for 20 pts you get an average of another 3.5 hits versus an average of another 2 hits for 22 pts when you buy another reaver (and all that entails). I think I'd still rather have another Ravager in most circumstances.

I probably should have included the Splinterborn squad above, but I'm certain it's far and away the most cost-effective AI option in the book. Almost not worth comparing to the other options. It doesn't score though and is a boring, static option so it doesn't fit with every list.
Back to top Go down
HERO
Hekatrix
HERO

Posts : 1057
Join date : 2012-04-13

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 24 2013, 22:23

To me, it's not about the fact they're good at killing infantry... they just overlap too much with our units.

Almost ALL of our units excel at killing infantry.. that's what DE do best.

_________________
https://www.twitch.tv/lkhero
Back to top Go down
MFive
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 139
Join date : 2013-01-23
Location : Inside You.

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 25 2013, 03:56

one of the few exception to being good at AI in our dex, is mandrakes and MR.Skulls, which i really wish that they were good at something(anything), cause i love the models
Back to top Go down
fuhrmaaj
Kabalite Warrior
fuhrmaaj

Posts : 149
Join date : 2013-08-07

Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 25 2013, 17:58

@MFive wrote:
one of the few exception to being good at AI in our dex, is mandrakes and MR.Skulls, which i really wish that they were good at something(anything), cause i love the models
Egorey of DE fame has been experimenting with Mandrakes in his blog post here: https://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p80-lig-s-duckdrake-s-tdc-blog-tactics-unit-analysis-batreps-observations-nad-mandrakes-aug-25th

He says the key is to infiltrate them near a Haemy and in cover so you start with a Pain Token. Go bug him on his blog if you want to hear more!
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar Empty
PostSubject: Re: Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar   Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar I_icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Reaver Jetbike Cluster Caltrops: Best AI unit by far in dark Eldar
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
-
Jump to: