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 Harlequin themed list for my Cult

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Wych
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PostSubject: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19 2013, 00:51

Alright so I love space clowns, and I love evil clowns, but unfortunately, I only get to choose one. Harlequins themselves don't have much synergy with the rest of our codex. (Or anyone's really). And after looking at their old Codices and ours I see, they have a very similar stat line to wyches and bloodbrides. So I started brainstorming. I can make a harlequin themed list... without the harlequins! Just paint them colofrul crack a few jokes. yadda yadda. But before I go buy like 30 more wyches I want to make sure this list is at least viable. I don't need it to impale helldrakes or any such thing, I just want the community to check it out, tell me I'm wrong, and then I can save money. So without further ado here is my list:

HQ (85pts)
Archite(Succubus)
Agonizer

Elites (247pts)
5x bloodbrides, 3x bloodbrides w/ shardnet impaler, 1x syren w/ agonizer
Raider w/ flickerfield + disintegrator cannon

Troops (865pts)
3 units of:
9x wyches, 1x hekatrix w/ venom blade w/ haywire grenades
raider w/ flicker field + disintegrator cannon

2 units of:
5x wyches w/ haywire grenades
venom w/ splinter cannon

Fast Attack (312)
2 units of:
6x Reaver jetbikes w/ 2x heat lance

Heavy Support (340)
2 units of:
2x Talos Pain Engines w/ twinlinked liquifier gun and twin link heat lance

1x cronos parasite engine with spirit vortex and spirit probe.

Now I understand this is a very assaulty army in a very shooty edition. Obviously I can't even care about objectives until like turn 4 otherwise I'll lose. I have about 150 points in wiggle room before I reach 2000 points. Everyone of my troops is AT, as can be the talos, and bikes. One weakness I saw aside from being so assault based is I cant deal with the one thing we DE take for granted, monstrous creatures. That's why I turned my bloodbrides into a hunting party. Another weakness is anything in the equivalent of terminator armor, that's why I kitted my raiders with cannons over lances. I like to think of the pain engine as an Ice Cream truck. Music and all. It's milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard. With the two talos and so many wyches he will have units for his pain tokes. Units that NEED them. On that note. with that last 150 points, how do three mandrakes in an aegis defense line with a quad gun sound? TERRIBLE I know, but hey, that's why I'm here, for ideas. But the cronos CAN get them their pain token.
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19 2013, 12:51

One other idea. with 150 points I could put a Haemonculus with a liquifier gun in each raider full of wyches.

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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19 2013, 13:42

I'm not confident assessing the viability of this list because I haven't seen anything similar in action so I'm just going to bounce some ideas off you and see what sticks.

I know you've got the cult thing going on, but a very minor tweak to consider might be to swap out the succubus for an archon with husk blade and soul trap which puts the fear of god into MCs and other characters/multi-wound models which is probably what you're going to have the most trouble with. The husk blade is AP 2 so it can take out TEQ in a pinch as well.

It might be better to have one or two more small units of wyches in venoms instead of paying for haywire grenades on those large squads. The large squads are probably going to be tarpitting something every turn and it would be a shame to have them assault a vehicle then get cleaned up in shooting. Also having more Venoms means more splinter fire and it will get to a point where you don't notice you don't have warriors if you get enough of them.

One thing to bear in mind is that splinter pistols are actually pretty good at forcing grounding tests. I would probably try to get one of the large wych squads near an MC and start forcing grounding tests. If you bring him to the ground then tarpit him in melee immediately so you can bring another unit over to deal with it.

I don't know where the Talos/Cronos fit in with the theme, but I worry that they might be too slow to have much effect. If you've already got an army, maybe try playing Ravagers in your HS slot first (either Dissies or Lances) because I imagine you'll benefit greatly from the extra shooting.

If I were to go with my gut on this, I think you could make it work but you'll have a lot of frustrating games until you figure out what works. I wouldn't buy this whole army in one go, but start with two Battleforce boxes because they have 10 Warriors, 10 Wyches, 3 Reavers and a Raider. At the prices in my country, you get the Warriors over 90% off if you plan on using everything else. If you've already got Warriors then you aren't too committed into Wyches that you can't turn back. If you find the Wyches aren't performing then you can shelf them or using them in those Venom squads you have as tank busters.

Good luck! Hopefully it works out!
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Irakunar Thrax
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19 2013, 13:45

You know what? I actually like it Smile
I don't see how you can have too much problems with termies with so many disintegrators...

The reavers are good for terrorizing your opponent.

It does however come up short on total shooting power.

I think that trueborn with splinter cannons in a venom with splinter cannons would be a great addition, it might stick out from your harlequin theme but it would help against mc's.

What's great about wyches and bloodbrides is their dodge in close combat which makes them quite sturdy in cc.

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Irakunar Thrax
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19 2013, 13:51

Sorry, for ghe double post, but if you play the mission and take out enemy troops, it could work out pretty well.

I'v hade 5wyches take out emtire strike squads in a couple turns so i try not to underestimate them.

I think the the talos are a bit weird in this list as well...

Cronos for tokens i understand but i am also a bit worried about it keeping up with wyches.
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Skyboard surfer
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19 2013, 14:36

Still not quite sure why you think you can't fit actual Harlequins into a 2000 point list - given the basic premise of the list and the fact that you can build it around them...

...apart from that the list looks kind of fun!

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Irakunar Thrax
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19 2013, 15:26

Personally think harlequins could replace the bloodbrides.
Grab kisses for most of them and a shadowseer. Maybe a troupe master for certain challenges and put an archon in there. Lots of room for it.

They have many attacks and has furious charge and hit and run.
The troupe master might as well have a power weapon for meq.

The archon could go with huskblade, shadow field, soul trap and drugs?

You would of course have one less raider with a dissie, but it seems stronger than a bloodbride squad to me.
And they can't be shot from longer than 24" away which is nice when marching over the table ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 20 2013, 00:02

@fuhrmaaj wrote:

I know you've got the cult thing going on, but a very minor tweak to consider might be to swap out the succubus for an archon with husk blade and soul trap which puts the fear of god into MCs and other characters/multi-wound models which is probably what you're going to have the most trouble with. The husk blade is AP 2 so it can take out TEQ in a pinch as well.
The succubus is really more an aesthetic choice. I'm not down on an archon, he's clearly a better choice, though kitted out the way you describe he's almost double the points. When you look at the old harlequin codex The great harlequin had a much higher weapon skill than ballistic skill. And if you look at the succubus it's the same. I thought about the archon and in the end I might take him, but for fluff and price the Succubus got the spot. At the end of the day though I might need the huskblade just to deal with MC's.

@fuhrmaaj wrote:

It might be better to have one or two more small units of wyches in venoms instead of paying for haywire grenades on those large squads. The large squads are probably going to be tarpitting something every turn and it would be a shame to have them assault a vehicle then get cleaned up in shooting. Also having more Venoms means more splinter fire and it will get to a point where you don't notice you don't have warriors if you get enough of them
My only concern with fielding five wyches in place of the 10 is kill power. 10 wyches in an assault are going to do a lot more damage than five. I can't imagine 5 squads of five wyches doing much against anything but tanks. The haywire grenades on the large units are insurance. I could field a few less to reduce their cost, but those squads are built to assault infantry. But in the case I come up against a lot of mech they have the grenades.

@Irakunar Thrax wrote:

I think the the talos are a bit weird in this list as well...

Cronos for tokens i understand but i am also a bit worried about it keeping up with wyches.
I know the talos seems weird but if you look at the old Harlie codex, their ONLY heavy support unit was a venom. A 7 man transport. fast skimmer. Eventually death jesters became heavy support, I can emulate those through trueborn. That's an elite unit though. Eventually in the newer codexes they added spirit walkers so the talos and cronos seemed like the closest unit to that. The idea isn't so much for the cronos to keep up with the wyches. He'll easily keep up with the talos. But with so many units with power from pain on the field I'm sure SOMETHING will be in 12" range. Also I find the talos to be more durable than the ravagers. Unless i come up against another dark eldar army or sternguard. I can definitely get rid of them if need be.

@Skyboard surfer wrote:

Still not quite sure why you think you can't fit actual Harlequins into a 2000 point list - given the basic premise of the list and the fact that you can build it around them...
Syngery. Harlequins just lack synergy. They can't use our transports. They don't get power from pain. They can use our webways portals, but they can't assault out of them. I can fit them in the list, what I can't fit them into is a venom or a raider. Funny huh? The venom was their original transport and they can't use it. If the harlequins in the codex were designed to work well with dark eldar, rather than just being a carbon copy from the Eldar codex, I'd use them in a heartbeat. So, Wyches are watered down harlies, and bloodbrides are an incredibly close match.

You've all given me some things to consider. An archon with a huskblade would be disgusting, but costs 60 more points which isn't bad at all. Not sure about reducing the size of the wych squads. Aside from having to buy more venoms(boo), I'm not sure 5 man squads can hold their own. Trueborn are a definite possibilty they even made it in the first cut. I look at them like death jesters. 3 man squads with heavy weapons. But they're an elite choice. Not heavy. But in retrospect, how many dudes are on a ravager? 3. And what are they shooting? Heavy weapons. So that might actually be a better and more fluffy fit. Two ravagers and a cronos?
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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 20 2013, 15:31

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@fuhrmaaj wrote:

I know you've got the cult thing going on, but a very minor tweak to consider might be to swap out the succubus for an archon with husk blade and soul trap which puts the fear of god into MCs and other characters/multi-wound models which is probably what you're going to have the most trouble with. The husk blade is AP 2 so it can take out TEQ in a pinch as well.
The succubus is really more an aesthetic choice. I'm not down on an archon, he's clearly a better choice, though kitted out the way you describe he's almost double the points. When you look at the old harlequin codex The great harlequin had a much higher weapon skill than ballistic skill. And if you look at the succubus it's the same. I thought about the archon and in the end I might take him, but for fluff and price the Succubus got the spot. At the end of the day though I might need the huskblade just to deal with MC's.
I've only got the 3rd edition minidex but the Great Harlequin is WS 7, just like the Archon. Also you could model the Husk Blade as Rive Blades for theme. Yeah he's expensive but I doubt that the succubus adds much to a list of wyches so it might be worth the investment just to cover your bases.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@fuhrmaaj wrote:

It might be better to have one or two more small units of wyches in venoms instead of paying for haywire grenades on those large squads. The large squads are probably going to be tarpitting something every turn and it would be a shame to have them assault a vehicle then get cleaned up in shooting. Also having more Venoms means more splinter fire and it will get to a point where you don't notice you don't have warriors if you get enough of them
My only concern with fielding five wyches in place of the 10 is kill power. 10 wyches in an assault are going to do a lot more damage than five. I can't imagine 5 squads of five wyches doing much against anything but tanks. The haywire grenades on the large units are insurance. I could field a few less to reduce their cost, but those squads are built to assault infantry. But in the case I come up against a lot of mech they have the grenades.
Sorry if I wan't clear, my specific suggestion is to drop one unit of 10 wyches in a raider for 2 units of 5 wyches in venoms and to drop the haywire grenades on the remaining 2 units of 10 wyches. If you talk to proponents of the haywire wyches on this board, they tend to say that just 2 squads is risky and you need to have more redundancy with them in order to get the job done. That looks like this:

Troops (870pts)
2 units of:
9x wyches, 1x hekatrix w/ venom blade
raider w/ flicker field + disintegrator cannon

4 units of:
5x wyches w/ haywire grenades
venom w/ splinter cannon

This only costs 5 more points and gives you a lot more splinter fire, the ability to kill an extra vehicle each turn (more units) and better scoring with more units. I don't know why you're worried about having 2 squads of 5 wyches in assault versus 1 of 10. You should charge both squads in if you want to do something to infantry in melee and you only miss out on the hekatrix and her venom blade. Good trade imo, just need to find 5 points somewhere.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@Skyboard surfer wrote:

Still not quite sure why you think you can't fit actual Harlequins into a 2000 point list - given the basic premise of the list and the fact that you can build it around them...
Syngery. Harlequins just lack synergy. They can't use our transports. They don't get power from pain. They can use our webways portals, but they can't assault out of them. I can fit them in the list, what I can't fit them into is a venom or a raider. Funny huh? The venom was their original transport and they can't use it. If the harlequins in the codex were designed to work well with dark eldar, rather than just being a carbon copy from the Eldar codex, I'd use them in a heartbeat. So, Wyches are watered down harlies, and bloodbrides are an incredibly close match.
Agreed. The issue isn't whether or not they "fit", the issue is that Harlequins aren't good.
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Skyboard surfer
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 20 2013, 16:27

@fuhrmaaj wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:



Syngery. Harlequins just lack synergy. They can't use our transports. They don't get power from pain. They can use our webways portals, but they can't assault out of them. I can fit them in the list, what I can't fit them into is a venom or a raider. Funny huh? The venom was their original transport and they can't use it. If the harlequins in the codex were designed to work well with dark eldar, rather than just being a carbon copy from the Eldar codex, I'd use them in a heartbeat. So, Wyches are watered down harlies, and bloodbrides are an incredibly close match.
Agreed. The issue isn't whether or not they "fit", the issue is that Harlequins aren't good.

Funny, they do alright for me when I play them.

Each to their own though. Vive la difference.

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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 20 2013, 23:10

@fuhrmaaj wrote:
Sorry if I wan't clear, my specific suggestion is to drop one unit of 10 wyches in a raider for 2 units of 5 wyches in venoms and to drop the haywire grenades on the remaining 2 units of 10 wyches. If you talk to proponents of the haywire wyches on this board, they tend to say that just 2 squads is risky and you need to have more redundancy with them in order to get the job done. That looks like this:

Troops (870pts)
2 units of:
9x wyches, 1x hekatrix w/ venom blade
raider w/ flicker field + disintegrator cannon

4 units of:
5x wyches w/ haywire grenades
venom w/ splinter cannon

This only costs 5 more points and gives you a lot more splinter fire, the ability to kill an extra vehicle each turn (more units) and better scoring with more units. I don't know why you're worried about having 2 squads of 5 wyches in assault versus 1 of 10. You should charge both squads in if you want to do something to infantry in melee and you only miss out on the hekatrix and her venom blade. Good trade imo, just need to find 5 points somewhere.
Brilliant. I'm glad you clarified this as this actually sounds much better. That's the whole point of listing these things. After a lot of playtesting I might have came to the same conclusion, but you saved me a lot of time. Kudos on that.

@Skyboard surfer wrote:
@fuhrmaaj wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:



Syngery. Harlequins just lack synergy. They can't use our transports. They don't get power from pain. They can use our webways portals, but they can't assault out of them. I can fit them in the list, what I can't fit them into is a venom or a raider. Funny huh? The venom was their original transport and they can't use it. If the harlequins in the codex were designed to work well with dark eldar, rather than just being a carbon copy from the Eldar codex, I'd use them in a heartbeat. So, Wyches are watered down harlies, and bloodbrides are an incredibly close match.
Agreed. The issue isn't whether or not they "fit", the issue is that Harlequins aren't good.
Funny, they do alright for me when I play them.

Each to their own though. Vive la difference.
I wouldn't say they're not good. They are good. But they either need to have some tailor made abilities for eldar and dark eldar forces or have their own codex. Because they're a good unit on their own, but incompatable with a lot of our stuff.
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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: Harlequin themed list for my Cult   Harlequin themed list for my Cult I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 21 2013, 04:24

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@fuhrmaaj wrote:
Sorry if I wan't clear, my specific suggestion is to drop one unit of 10 wyches in a raider for 2 units of 5 wyches in venoms and to drop the haywire grenades on the remaining 2 units of 10 wyches. If you talk to proponents of the haywire wyches on this board, they tend to say that just 2 squads is risky and you need to have more redundancy with them in order to get the job done. That looks like this:

Troops (870pts)
2 units of:
9x wyches, 1x hekatrix w/ venom blade
raider w/ flicker field + disintegrator cannon

4 units of:
5x wyches w/ haywire grenades
venom w/ splinter cannon

This only costs 5 more points and gives you a lot more splinter fire, the ability to kill an extra vehicle each turn (more units) and better scoring with more units. I don't know why you're worried about having 2 squads of 5 wyches in assault versus 1 of 10. You should charge both squads in if you want to do something to infantry in melee and you only miss out on the hekatrix and her venom blade. Good trade imo, just need to find 5 points somewhere.
Brilliant. I'm glad you clarified this as this actually sounds much better. That's the whole point of listing these things. After a lot of playtesting I might have came to the same conclusion, but you saved me a lot of time. Kudos on that.
Glad you like it, sorry I wasn't clear in the first place.

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@Skyboard surfer wrote:
@fuhrmaaj wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:



Syngery. Harlequins just lack synergy. They can't use our transports. They don't get power from pain. They can use our webways portals, but they can't assault out of them. I can fit them in the list, what I can't fit them into is a venom or a raider. Funny huh? The venom was their original transport and they can't use it. If the harlequins in the codex were designed to work well with dark eldar, rather than just being a carbon copy from the Eldar codex, I'd use them in a heartbeat. So, Wyches are watered down harlies, and bloodbrides are an incredibly close match.
Agreed. The issue isn't whether or not they "fit", the issue is that Harlequins aren't good.
Funny, they do alright for me when I play them.

Each to their own though. Vive la difference.
I wouldn't say they're not good. They are good. But they either need to have some tailor made abilities for eldar and dark eldar forces or have their own codex. Because they're a good unit on their own, but incompatable with a lot of our stuff.
I will say that a had a fair amount of success with them in 5th edition Eldar armies which seem to complement footsloggers better. I've washed my hands of them this edition though.
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