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Larndorn
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PostSubject: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 16 2013, 00:31

I have an upcoming Tournament that will have some of the best players from my local area, I have predominantly been playing Daemons recently but the Dark Kin were my first army and I wanted to bring them to this tournament.

The list I am planning to use is
Archon-Huskblade, Soultrap, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Phantasm Grenade Launcher-170
Haemonculus-50
5 Incubi-klaivex-125
Raider-Flickerfield, Aether Sails-75
5 Wracks-50
10 Warriors-Blaster, Splinter Cannon-115
Raider-Flickerfield, Splinter Racks-80
10 Warriors-Blaster, Splinter Cannon-115
Raider-Flickerfield, Splinter Racks-80
10 Warriors-Blaster, Splinter Cannon-115
Raider-Flickerfield, Splinter Racks-80
Ravager-Flickerfield, Night Shields-125
Ravager-Flickerfield, Night Shields-125
Void Raven-Flickerfield, Night Shields, 4 Shatterfield Missiles-205
5 Scourges-2 Haywire Blasters-130
Imperial Bastion-Icarus Lascannon-110

Xenos will be dominate the scene mostly Craftworld Eldar, Chaos, and Necrons, there will maybe be 2 Imperial Players.

Ideally I would like to have another squad of Scourges instead of the Bastion but I felt I needed the extra AA and with Wave Serpents about an extra piece of LOS blocking terrain certainly would be useful for keeping my Raiders up at least for the first turn.
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Larndorn
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 26 2013, 00:14

No comments at all on this list?
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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 26 2013, 22:33

It looks like a pretty good list, I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for but there are some things you can trim if you're interested in fielding more stuff.

Archon - I've been seeing more andmore people running just husk blade and shadow field, yours might be a lot of points spent for little gain but keep the PGL for the Incubi

Incubi - I would drop the Klaivex. For the cost you could almost get another Incubus. Another unit to consider (which I think better complements the HB Archon) is the Grotesques if you're able to trade them.

Wracks - I assume these are sitting on the Bastion? I would put the Haemy in the Archon's unit then and you could give him a Venom blade or something.

Warriors - My suggestion is to have either splinter racks or a splinter cannon because the splinter rack re-roll doesn't work on the Cannon. My current preference is to give them the cannon and deploy them in cover. Jump them in the Raider when you need to kite or score objectives.

I don't know if you need the Flickerfields when you can move your Ravager and get a 5+ cover save which means they usually only work on the first turn. Also I feel like Night Shields are an all or nothing upgrade, get them on the Raiders too or don't get them at all. Don't get them if you have splinter racks either because you'll be driving too close to the enemy.

Void Raven - Instead of this you could get a Razorwing which works almost as well but for at least 40 less points. If you prefer the Void Raven then I think you should drop the Missiles because I'm not sure if you'll live long enough to use them.

The Bastion's a cool idea to add some AA. I like the list overall and it should be fun to play!
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Malevolent-Storm
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 27 2013, 19:08

I'm going to devil's advocate a bit here.

@fuhrmaaj wrote:
It looks like a pretty good list, I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for but there are some things you can trim if you're interested in fielding more stuff.

Incubi - I would drop the Klaivex. For the cost you could almost get another Incubus. Another unit to consider (which I think better complements the HB Archon) is the Grotesques if you're able to trade them.
You might want the Klaivex for challenges depending on how you are putting all this together.

Quote :
Wracks - I assume these are sitting on the Bastion? I would put the Haemy in the Archon's unit then and you could give him a Venom blade or something.
You could also try to finagle another Venom for these guys, even if they never step foot in it.  If you went the Grot route or even if you just wanted to, you could then get a Raider for the Incubi (or someone else) giving you more AT.

Quote :
Don't get them (Night Shields) if you have splinter racks either because you'll be driving too close to the enemy.
This might depend on what you want to do with the Raiders, who you are fighting, and how they are deployed.  For example, if you are battling something with a 24" rapid fire weapon, then you could stay out of their range while shooting them.  They would have to move 6" forward to shoot back, thus allowing you to potentially force them to move.  In a game with objectives, cover, etc., that might be important.  It also might make it so that a heavy weapon has to move.  Night Shields also may mean you stay out of rapid fire range which may matter against bolters which could glance any AV10.  It also affects the ranges at which melta weapons get their benefit.  Against longer range stuff like TFCs, Railguns, etc. then the Night Shields won't help.  But in any game where you are fighting a weapon with an equal range, you have some advantage.

Also, the Void Raven is somewhat more survivable against massed bolter fire.

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Larndorn
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 27 2013, 20:28

The wracks were to sit in the bastion and the haemy was for the pain token in the incubi which have the klaivex for challenges, because I would rather my Archon not be tarpitted by things with Eternal Warrior when he could butcher the squad attached to that character and then try to take the eternal warrior out after he has a wound or 2 from the klaivex.

The reason I went flickerfields is because there will be a handful of Eldar players (with the completely balanced and not overpowerd at all, wave serpent shields) and probably a Tau player or 2. So with the ignore cover stuff floating about I wanted to guarantee at least the 5+.

The Soul Trap probably could be dropped, but I definatly would not want to drop the combat drugs because without them the huskblade feels inadequate against t5-6 stuff.

The Night Shields were partially for the melta but more importantly back to the Tau/Eldar thing with their 36" missile pods and lances and scatter lasers etc.

Once again Malevolent read my mind there is a lot less massed str 5 floating around then strength 4 which alone in my mind justifies the points, also the extra str on the lance is another reason for the Void Raven, I will consider dropping a couple missiles though to free up points for a venomblade/liquefier for the haemy.

Fuehr- you are right with regards to the Warriors I was sot of torn on the cannon+racks, and also the blaster in a squad like that 15pts seems a little steep and I should focus the squad all antitroop and go with a shredder or just keep the rifle.

Also thought on the scourges? I was thinking of swapping haywires for Splinter cannons and run a psuedovenom, or with the extra points upgrade to blasters.
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Obyiscus
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 27 2013, 20:34

I agree that you should drop the blasters in the warrior squads. I used to run them like this but realized it often ended up being a waste. I disagree about dropping the cannon (unless you really need points). While it doesn't get the re-roll it add an extra 4 shots at range and 6 when snap firing. the only annoying thing about it in my mind is that is makes rolling slightly more complicated Razz
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Larndorn
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 28 2013, 23:28

Archon-Huskblade, Soultrap, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Phantasm Grenade Launcher-170
Haemonculus-Liquifier gun, venomblade, Crucible of Malediction-85
5 Incubi-klaivex, Muderous Assault, Onslaught-150
Raider-Flickerfield, Aether Sails, Torment Grenade launchers-80
5 Wracks-50
10 Warriors-Splinter Cannon-100
Raider-Flickerfield, Splinter Racks-80
10 Warriors-Splinter Cannon-100
Raider-Flickerfield, Splinter Racks-80
10 Warriors-Splinter Cannon-100
Raider-Flickerfield, Splinter Racks-80
Ravager-Flickerfield, Night Shields-125
Ravager-Flickerfield, Night Shields-125
Void Raven-Flickerfield, Night Shields, 2 Shatterfield Missiles-185
5 Scourges-2 Haywire Blasters-130
Imperial Bastion-Icarus Lascannon-110
 
New potential list, Warriors and Void Raven got Leaner, Incubi and Haemy got meaner, with no blaster the Warriors are now all in AI, and can shoot and scoot with a better range than before.
 
Incubi I figured adding murderous assault would help in challenges and onslaught just because 2-3 extra attacks could help make a difference.
 
Now the unusual inclusion, the Crucible, I am just thinking about it for laughs but I also think that if the placement lines up right when it goes off it could be devastating to certain armies, ('Nids, GKs, Eldar, and especially Daemons) combined with the torment launcher Daemons testing on LD 8, Spiritseers I believe on a 7, I certainly feel I could get some amusement from it.
 
Side Question, is there anything prohibiting popping the Crucible after an Aethersails/Flat Out move? It isn't technically a shooting weapon, but giving up the ability to shoot seems to imply that it subsitutes as a shooting attack albeit a weird one.
 
Now I would never pull something like that in a casual game but since this is a championship tournament, would my case with RAW be strong enough to pull it off? I would like to hear some other opinions on this matter before I show up risk the Raider full of goodies, just to get it overruled. (I will of course want to run it by the TO but if it clearly won't work I don't want to poison the judge by trying to cheese something that has clearly been shut down)
 
Edit:Checked the DE and BYB FAQs no mention of using Items with Flat Out Moves (which I assume the Aethersail move would fall under any Flat Out rulings)

2nd Edit: Checked the minirulebook and no restriction on preforming actions (other than disembarking and shooting) So unless I'm missing something Aethersails+Flat Out on a raider and popping the Crucible looks like a go (Down Side is that it means getting the Incubi+Archon+Haemy in a very Vulnerable position just to pop it off on 2+ psykers turn one)


Last edited by Larndorn on Thu Aug 29 2013, 23:07; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : More information)
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Larndorn
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 31 2013, 20:27

Decided to switch the Scourges to Splinter Cannons instead of Haywire Blasters I felt giving them more range would be safer and the extra shots should be very useful for taking out Wraithknights/FMCs. (Not to mention I had a old Metal Squad of Scourges that were already Painted and equipped that way, never underestimate the benefit of one less unit to paint Smile )
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Malevolent-Storm
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 01 2013, 00:27

I am curious about your reasoning on this. Unless you stay immobile (which Scourges tend not to do) the SC only gives you one more shot for its points. Granted you have double the range, but if you stay out at the outer edge of your range, you have no use for the splinter carbines. Thus, you:

Stay immobile and get 6 more shots per five man group, going from 15 shots to 21 shots, although if you stay at the 36" range, you are trading your 15 shots for 12.

Stay mobile in which case you have 2 extra shots per five man group, and if you stay at 36", you trade 15 shots for 8.

I suppose you could view these just as a long range AT volume fire unit that is more mobile than splinterborn (without a venom), but you are paying for that mobility already. I'm not sure I'd be willing to not use it.

By contrast, the Haywire Blasters, usually have a different target so the range differential does not bother me as much. If I'm hunting tanks, I can shoot at 24" and the fact that my carbines can't shoot at that range doesn't matter against a tank. If I opt for AI fire, I'd close to 18", at least with the carbines. (I note that as long as the carbines are in range of some target in the unit, the extended 6" of the haywire blasters means the carbine wounds can be applied further into the target unit than the carbine's 18" bubble whereas if the whole unit was carbines, the 18" limit would be a hard limit. While the SC's would extend that further, I'm having a hard time envisioning a scenario where, if you closed the carbines to within 18" of one target model, you would need more than the extra 6" provided by the haywire blasters).

The only exception I can think I might make would be if I were working a WWP list and wanted the units coming out of the WWP to have the slightly higher mobility/threat bubble than other foot troops.

Anyway, I'm just curious about why you made the switch.


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Larndorn
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 01 2013, 03:20

Well apart is that I found 5 Metal Scourges set up this way from a while ago, so it would have time painting and assembling the box of new scourges.

The other thing is that with the FMCs in my area (Daemons are pretty popular, nids aren't unheard of either) when snapfiring at those it is +6 shots from the five man unit, which statistically comes out to one more hit. Also with the Daemons I would rather have a little extra range for things like the beasts and Cron Wraiths.

I also think that being able to open with a volley at 36" against some things before closing to the 18" range for a second salvo for the kill shot is the way to go. Also combining the cannons from the scourges + the cannons from the warriors (and maybe a squad worth of rifles at 24") should be able to drop a wraithknight turn 1 hopefully.
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Larndorn
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PostSubject: Re: 1750 list   1750 list I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 02 2013, 04:03

Tried it out against a couple of Mech Eldar (Wave Serpent Spam/Wraithknights) First game lost crusade 3-1, second game tabled turn 2 (I held 2 of the Warriors+Raiders in reserve) I went second,

Big Lesson Learned a lone Bastion is not enough LoS blocking terrain against Wave Serpents, and not being able to roll cover saves/flickerfield saves means time to pack up (I saved roughly 5-10% of my rolls overall this game)
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