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 Some tactics help

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Silverglade
Wych
Silverglade

Posts : 519
Join date : 2012-12-30

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PostSubject: Some tactics help   Some tactics help I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 12 2013, 02:25

Okay, so I have posted a number of topics in the army list section for combatting my main opponent being a grey knights player.

His general tactic is to set up a gun line with dreadnaughts and tanks.  Then he advances with a few of the tanks with troops in them, and on turn two zooms in with some flyers into my deployment zone (generally a vendetta and a stormraven).

I could use some ideas of something to catch him off guard a bit.   The army list I can then tailor to fit, but interested in your guys thoughts, particularly those who have combatted marines a lot.
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fuhrmaaj
Kabalite Warrior
fuhrmaaj

Posts : 149
Join date : 2013-08-07

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PostSubject: Re: Some tactics help   Some tactics help I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 12 2013, 04:42

It would be nice if you could post an example of your opponent's list, but for now I'm going off this: https://www.thedarkcity.net/t7486-1500-points-vs-grey-knights

Generally speaking flyers are a nuisance and your strategy is going to depend on how many points he's dedicating to them. If he's got an Acolyte Chimmy or Razorback spam list then try to get on the mech component in the first couple turns before the flyers show up. Stormravens can take down 2 Venoms a turn in the worst case scenario but are going to be less effective against troops and Venoms will kill one vehicle each turn. Assess if you can just ignore the flyers and try to stop the scoring.

Now if he's GK/IG with Acolytes and an Infantry Platoon then you might have difficulties stopping everything. Try to pop transports early if he has them and gun down the infantry. If you can't silence his flyers then you've got to win by scoring or by wracking up more kill points so just focus on the scenario.

As far as your list goes, I don't understand what the WWP is adding. Anything you reserve is going to have a negative impact on your ability to get a strong alpha strike and take the lead before his Stormraven shows up and kills everything. I would either drop the Haemie and Wracks and get more Blaster Warriors in Venoms, or use Wracks for scoring and get a unit of Blasterborn in Venom.

The Voidraven is a risky proposition IMO. If your bomber comes on before his flyers then you might be able to kill one vehicle and most of a squad before his Vendettas come up and take it out. Even if your bomber comes on after some of his flyers, then you only have a chance to kill one of them (nowhere near guaranteed) before it gets taken out. I would personally rather have another Ravager or more Venoms which can contribute on turn 1 and get some damage done before the flyers show up.

Best of luck!
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Silverglade
Wych
Silverglade

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PostSubject: Re: Some tactics help   Some tactics help I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 13 2013, 05:38

Yeah, in terms of the list I had posted, after one or two comments I realized my WWP idea was flawed. So I've dropped that plan.

But part of your advice is to largely pass on my own flyers due to the risk of coming on first if I am correct.

Certainly I know a number of others have advised ignoring flyers when they're on the board. My biggest problem is that his storm raven has the added threat of being an assault vehicle.

One idea I did have to try was to take some allied Eldar with Warwalkers armed with missile launchers including flakk missiles. That way they are not specifically anti-flyer, but would add some punch when he does come onto the board.

I'd thought about just going old school - three ravagers, blaster kabalites in venoms, reavers and a blasterborn if I can afford it points wise and see how I do.

For some reason though he seems to be intimidated by the Talos, so I thought of taking at least one to draw his fire and attention away from the ravagers.
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fuhrmaaj
Kabalite Warrior
fuhrmaaj

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PostSubject: Re: Some tactics help   Some tactics help I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 13 2013, 21:10

Are you trying to build a TAC list or just a list that can beat this guy?

My advice is for you to throw out your army list and decide how you want to deal with flyers. The problem isn't so much a list problem as it is a strategy problem. I wouldn't add Eldar just to deal with flyers because not every list needs them. (If you do add Eldar, I would go for Warp Spiders instead of War Walkers)

Most armies have 3 options when it comes to dealing with flyers:

1) Bring skyfire and AA units. For DE that would mean flyers and a ADL with gun emplacement.

2) Bring a lot of AT weaponry and snap fire air units down. DE can be decent at this with Ravagers and Blasterborn.

3) Ignore the flyers and go for objectives. DE are excellent at this with high mobility allowing you to take advantage of the opponent's small army in the early turns and can let you snowball the game if you have more points on the board every turn.

All of these options are viable and bringing Eldar allies can help in any of those strategies as well. Most people are probably going to advocate for the third option because DE AA is less than formidable. It looks like you might be up against a mech army though, so cramming a lot of lances in couldn't hurt. Take out the psyflenoughts on turn 1 and use splinters to take out scoring units. If you get first blood you'll be in pretty good shape.

Going off of what you said he had at least 385pts of flyers in a 1500pt battle, which is over 25%. If you dedicate too much to dealing with flyers then he's just going to roll you with psyflenoughts and tanks then take objectives with infantry platoons. I think the ground army is the more pressing concern, but it often feels frustrating when Stormravens are taking out two things each turn.
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Silverglade
Wych
Silverglade

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PostSubject: Re: Some tactics help   Some tactics help I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 14 2013, 04:07

Yeah, he plays a very heavily mech army. He is sufficiently scared of my splinter rifle fire that 100% of his army is in a vehicle in turn 1. (on a rare occasion he plays terminators, but not that often).

So I do generally try to bring lots of blasters (though for some reason i haven't played blasterborn that often. I think it has to do with making sure i have sufficient troop choices.)

So i think i may opt for that option next go-round. I'll start with the blasterborn (in a raider i think, rather than venom), plus ravagers. Then flesh out the army around that core. So my strategy would be option 3, but my army would be built to be able to go for option 2.

As a side point, why do you like warp spiders? I've seen a number of people say they do, but i don't fully see it myself.

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fuhrmaaj
Kabalite Warrior
fuhrmaaj

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PostSubject: Re: Some tactics help   Some tactics help I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 15 2013, 08:47

@Silverglade wrote:
I'll start with the blasterborn (in a raider i think, rather than venom), plus ravagers.
I'd recommend a Venom because the splinter fire from your Trueborn are wasted if you're shooting at a vehicle. If you take a small squad with 4 blasters then you've got max AT and the Venom is a pretty cheap transport with a free 5++ which might delay the explosion which wipes out half your blasters. Either way works though.

@Silverglade wrote:
Then flesh out the army around that core.    So my strategy would be option 3, but my army would be built to be able to go for option 2.
That's the general plan against air. Try to kill the army and if you run out of targets then you start taking out the flyers.

@Silverglade wrote:
As a side point, why do you like warp spiders?  I've seen a number of people say they do, but i don't fully see it myself.
The amount of shots per point is roughly the same depending on how you equip the War Walkers, but the Warp Spiders have a lot of advantages.

1) Warp Spiders are a strong Guide/Prescience target if you've got a large squad. You already have a Farseer and I don't know of a better target to Guide. War Walkers with dual scatter lasers are also strong, but this wastes the target lock. If you only use one scatter laser then half your shots aren't TL unless you Guide them (which is a bit of a waste).

2) Warp Spiders are crazy mobile with jetpacks and Battle Focus allowing them to hide behind BLOS terrain while shooting. If you need to add more distance you have the option to roll an additional 2d6" in the movement and assault phases going between 17-42" in one turn while shooting.

3) On top of the 2 S6 shots, they have a 1/6 chance of being AP1 and are S7 against vehicles and some monstrous creatures (such as Riptides). The high volume of shots, especially with Guide, makes them a big threat to air units which War Walkers can't compete with at cost.

4) They have the ability to assault and clean up squads which can be a valuable option at any point of the game with Hit & Run.

Stormravens are tough, that's why they're usually ignored. Here's the chance for a Warp Spider squad to take a hull point:

10 models * 2 shots * 1/6 chance to hit * 1/3 chance to get an HP = 1.11 HP/turn

with Guide:

10 models * 2 shot * (1/6 + 5/6*1/6) chance to hit with reroll * 1/3 chance to get an HP = 2.03 HP/turn

I'm not sure what loadout you're interested in on the War Walkers, but I found that Warp Spiders are better in most situations. It's up to you, but my recommendation is to try the Warp Spiders and I'm sure you'll love them.
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