THE DARK CITY
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.



 
HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityRegisterLog in

 

 Making sureI got it right

Go down 
+2
Count Adhemar
RetroGamer1224
6 posters
AuthorMessage
RetroGamer1224
Hellion
RetroGamer1224

Posts : 70
Join date : 2012-08-16
Location : New Mexico

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 15:27

This is more of a clarification for me. Was at my local store and we have a bunch of people playing. It was not a serious type of play, more for people to learn the rules and their armies. The situation is Necros vs 'Nids in a 500 point battle. The Necron player tried to nerf his list so the "nids player can have a win. Well he made it to were all he had was his HQ, troops in a Night Scythe. Only problem is he had them all in the flyer to deploy on turn 2. So at the end of turn 1 there would be nothing on the field. That would be an auto loss if I am correct. The 'Nids player let it slide and they played on.

I am just wondering if I did say the right thing about the flyer as I told them he needed a unit on the field. he said his unit was just one and inside the flyer. Things worked out but I just wish the rules were followed so that people learned the right way.

Thanks and sorry if this was ranty.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/seekingknight
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7568
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 16:17

You were correct. If at the end of a game turn one player has no forces on the table their opponent automatically wins. Page 122 if you need to show it to anyone.

_________________
Making sureI got it right YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
Thor665

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 16:23

I'll just ignore that a build of Necron Lord +Warriors+Night Scythe is an illegal build since it lacks the required 2 Troop slots.

Page 122 is the one that notes the auto win if nothing is on the board. You are correct about that.

That said...Page 124, you have to declare what you're keeping in reserve, and it can only be 'up to half' (rounding up) and dedicated transports and their units count as one.

Therefore, since he had a 2 unit army (IC + the Crons and their dedicated Night Scythe) it was illegal for him to place the Lord in Reserve as that would make it over half his army in reserve, and you can't join with them *until* being placed in reserve, so he can never have a 1 unit army.

He still could have deployed the Lord front and center in the middle of the board with no cover and hoped the Nids could kill him in one turn or that he would not make his Reserve roll.

Then again, anyone trying to hand off a win to Nids and fielding a flyer is 'doing it wrong' in the first place Wink

_________________
Making sureI got it right K93hWhs
Making sureI got it right L1RsnGX
The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
RetroGamer1224
Hellion
RetroGamer1224

Posts : 70
Join date : 2012-08-16
Location : New Mexico

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 17:10

I feel I best clear up the troop matter. Not everyone at the shop had two full troop choices so the shop owner allowed one troop and HQ. I am fine with people helping others but I feel the Necron player should have put together a solid 500 point list and tried his best. It doesn't help anyone to run a crap list especially someone whom just lost to Tau/Grey Knights a game before.\

Thanks again all for the input. I am ever so painfully slow painting my DE so I can play. I may just put them together then paint them later.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/seekingknight
Thor665
Archon
Thor665

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 21:52

If there was an exception for the Troop thing, that is fine.

That said, he still had an illegal deployment unless that had been house ruled as well, and his method should not have worked.

_________________
Making sureI got it right K93hWhs
Making sureI got it right L1RsnGX
The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
RetroGamer1224
Hellion
RetroGamer1224

Posts : 70
Join date : 2012-08-16
Location : New Mexico

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 21:57

I agree 100%. When I told him he said he understood but he was trying to make a list broken enough that the 'Nids player should have an easy win. Being said even with the nefred/illegal list he still was owning the 'Nids. Heck he had to crash the flier full of troops just so the 'Nids player can win.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/seekingknight
Dra'al Nacht
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 103
Join date : 2012-12-09
Location : Perth, Australia

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 02:25

@Thor665 wrote:
I'll just ignore that a build of Necron Lord +Warriors+Night Scythe is an illegal build since it lacks the required 2 Troop slots.

Page 122 is the one that notes the auto win if nothing is on the board. You are correct about that.

That said...Page 124, you have to declare what you're keeping in reserve, and it can only be 'up to half' (rounding up) and dedicated transports and their units count as one.

Therefore, since he had a 2 unit army (IC + the Crons and their dedicated Night Scythe) it was illegal for him to place the Lord in Reserve as that would make it over half his army in reserve, and you can't join with them *until* being placed in reserve, so he can never have a 1 unit army.

He still could have deployed the Lord front and center in the middle of the board with no cover and hoped the Nids could kill him in one turn or that he would not make his Reserve roll.

Then again, anyone trying to hand off a win to Nids and fielding a flyer is 'doing it wrong' in the first place Wink
There is actually nothing wrong with starting the IC in the flyer, as per the BRB FAQ, a unit that begins the game in a transport that must start in reserve is not counted for the 50% reserve limit.

Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
Thor665

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 02:58

There is something wrong with it, I think you're misunderstanding what the rule is saying;

It is saying the embarked passengers of the unit (the Troops that bought the Dedicated Transport) do not count towards the 50%. This is true.

So then you have two units, 1 HQ and 1 Flyer/Troop combo.

Since you can't have more than 50% of your army (rounding up) in reserves, that means that the Necron player is allowed to have 1 unit in reserve.
That unit is the flyer/Troop combo unit.

Now, look up how you get ICs to join units at game start - you either place them in coherency on the board *or* you hold them in reserve and announce to your opponent if they join a unit.

It is illegal to hold the Lord in reserve, and therefore he cannot be declared to join the unit, and therefore has to start the game on the board.

Make sense?

_________________
Making sureI got it right K93hWhs
Making sureI got it right L1RsnGX
The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Dra'al Nacht
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 103
Join date : 2012-12-09
Location : Perth, Australia

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 03:24

The actual rule on pg 39 states: 'An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.'
There is no requirement for the IC to be in reserves before he joins a unit in reserves. For example, I have a Tactical Squad in a Drop Pod in reserve. I then declare that my Librarian is joining the unit, as per the rule quoted above. My Librarian is now starting the game embarked upon a transport that must begin the game in reserve therefore, as per the FAQ, he does not count toward the 50% limit.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7568
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 09:12

A year into 6e and I'm still not sure what the rules are for this.

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

So it's clear that none of the models in the Night Scythe count towards the 50% limit of reserves, but where does that leave us when that leaves no other units?

It leaves no models on the table at the end of the 1st game turn and is therefore an auto lose. Of that, I am 100% sure.

_________________
Making sureI got it right YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
DominicJ
Wych
avatar

Posts : 662
Join date : 2013-01-23

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 13:04

Its end of first turn, not begining, drop pod assault armies can start all off the board, annoyingly.

Unless this rule forces the HQ to start on board because he doesnt have his own pod.

_________________
The Cult of the bloody disaster
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t7466-cult-of-the-bloody-disaster
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
Thor665

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 13:51

@Dra'al Nacht wrote:
The actual rule on pg 39 states: 'An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.'
There is no requirement for the IC to be in reserves before he joins a unit in reserves. For example, I have a Tactical Squad in a Drop Pod in reserve. I then declare that my Librarian is joining the unit, as per the rule quoted above. My Librarian is now starting the game embarked upon a transport that must begin the game in reserve therefore, as per the FAQ, he does not count toward the 50% limit.
Except you're doing things out of order.
Note the wording of what you quoted - he can begin the game being deployed, or if the unit is in reserve.

That means, as soon as you deploy him or put him in reserve then he is in the game.
He cannot get into reserve if he breaks the rules for reserves.
Therefore he cannot join that unit, and even if he magically could and did and it all worked exactly as you're suggesting - that would make your army a 1 unit army, which would not be allowed to have that unit in reserve even though it is obligated to be in reserve, and a black hole would form and your opponent would win.

The rule states that embarked units don't count for the 50% rule. It doesn't say that the transport doesn't count.

_________________
Making sureI got it right K93hWhs
Making sureI got it right L1RsnGX
The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7568
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 13:55

@Thor665 wrote:
The rule states that embarked units don't count for the 50% rule. It doesn't say that the transport doesn't count.

Page 124 however, does.

BRB Page 124 wrote:
Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so

So the flyer itself, and any unit embarked upon it, do not count towards the number of units that can be put in reserve. Unfortunately this leaves us with a situation where the entire army is in reserve and the universe then implodes.

_________________
Making sureI got it right YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
Thor665
Archon
Thor665

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 14:30

So at that point it does become a question of if the HQ needs to be able to be placed in reserve to join the unit in reserve.

_________________
Making sureI got it right K93hWhs
Making sureI got it right L1RsnGX
The Title Troupe! - Nom fellow posters for custom titles.
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7568
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 14:34

@Thor665 wrote:
So at that point it does become a question of if the HQ needs to be able to be placed in reserve to join the unit in reserve.

Which is yet another stupidly worded, grey, fuzzy, loose rule. I know! I was as shocked as you to discover that GW can't write rules for toffee!

_________________
Making sureI got it right YhBv3Wk
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
RetroGamer1224
Hellion
RetroGamer1224

Posts : 70
Join date : 2012-08-16
Location : New Mexico

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 15:11

So then someone could have an all reserve army if they have to start in reserve (I think deamons are like this). But if army does so they auto lose due to no models on the field after first turn.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/seekingknight
Dra'al Nacht
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 103
Join date : 2012-12-09
Location : Perth, Australia

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 15:23

@RetroGamer1224 wrote:
So then someone could have an all reserve army if they have to start in reserve (I think deamons are like this). But if army does so they auto lose due to no models on the field after first turn.
It's possible to have an all reserve army and not auto lose if you use Drop Pods, due to the Drop Pod Assault rule (half your pods arrive turn 1).

Back to top Go down
RetroGamer1224
Hellion
RetroGamer1224

Posts : 70
Join date : 2012-08-16
Location : New Mexico

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 15:31

Ahh true but with Necrons that may not be the case. All in all both sides enjoyed the game. GW does need to make some things more clear so that mix up don't happen.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/seekingknight
El_Jairo
Kabalite Warrior
El_Jairo

Posts : 215
Join date : 2012-02-07
Location : Leuven

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 17:42

If you read it all through it is clear: you can put half the number of units in reserve but units which need to start in reserve don't count to this limit.

In this example the Necron did deploy right but where destroyed after their first turn. So yes he tweaked his list so that the Nids could win, by almost forfeit.

[/translated from Nids] "look boss, we have one, there is no more necron resistance!"
"Great, they do taste bad, bwark!"
"oh wait, there is still a flyer, with necrons in it"
"Ignore them: we can block all landing space so they will never put a foot on this planet again"
[/translate] [start small rant]
It seams as strange logic: the necrons are up in their flyer, so they can't make it to the battlefield. On the other hand you could say: this piece of battlefield is now controlled by Nids, so enemy reserves and flyers can't make it to that place...
But then again, aren't those Robot Croissants a type of flyer that can "beam me down/up, Scotty" kind of transport people anywhere they like?

Anyhow: it show how GW tried to get Broken armies not to work. Armies that would use the broken units, they designed,... Still good that they do understand that it should be a little fun for both sides Very Happy [/rant]
Back to top Go down
RetroGamer1224
Hellion
RetroGamer1224

Posts : 70
Join date : 2012-08-16
Location : New Mexico

Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 19:59

Grand points all. One thing though is since the 'Nids player let it slide and let the game continue he still almost lost. Took the Necron to crash the flier around like turn 4 or 5 ish. So yeah very interesting game.
Back to top Go down
https://www.youtube.com/seekingknight
Sponsored content




Making sureI got it right Empty
PostSubject: Re: Making sureI got it right   Making sureI got it right I_icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Making sureI got it right
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Rules: Queries & Questions
-
Jump to: