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 Back to the basics. (warriors)

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SOlyer
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PostSubject: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 01:25

Ok, so obviously this question is going to depend largely on how your army is set up and what you are lacking that your transports really need to make up for but i figured id ask anyways.

5 warriors with a blaster in a venom with duel splinter cannons

or

10 warriors with a splinter cannon in a raider with splinter wracks

I take both for different situations, and i know thats what I'm sure the majority of people are going to be thinking at first thought, but try and think back to the majority of your army lists (that are competitive) and decide which one you prefer. If you can't decide then, what is the deciding factor between taking the 10 man squad or 5 man squad? Is it primarily venom vs raider in your list or is it for another reason? Also, what are you tactics for both? Do you keep them in their death box or deploy the 10 or 5 outside in some area terrain to sit on an objective?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 01:36

If I take all of history with the DE, my most common build is...5 men w. Blaster *and* S.Cannon in a Raider...but if we're just talking the new codex Wink

Um, I'm more of a 5 man w. Blaster, albeit I actually probably field them in Raiders more than I do Venoms (as in 5th I thought this waas more important, and 6th hasn't changed stuff that much in my opinion)

I probably get them out and keep them inside their transport in roughly equal numbers. I tend to get out more nowadays that you have to do so to claim - but at the end of the day I actually don't think explosions are all that bad for us (oh noes, nowadys I lose 2.2 in the explosion and have to take a morale check unlike the good old days when I lost 1.6 and had to take a morale check, woe unto my poor dead men inside their box o' death!!!!) I really don't get the 'box of death' mentality in 6th, I really don't.

I get them out for objectives, or if I need the range for shooting.
If I don't need to get them out, then I don't, let the enemy manage to pop a Raider/Venom before getting to use their AI weaponry effectively.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 02:21

I prefer the larger squads, I get more survivable troops, a similar amount of poison shots albeit with less range and a dark lance on a mobile platform. Ranged AT is at a premium in our codex, and turn 1 AT makes all the difference. Raiders are also great for blocking enemy movement due to their size, providing cover and screening.

That being said both set ups have their merits, why not take both? They complement each other nciely Venoms can provide cover to raiders on turn 1 thanks to not needing cover themselves because of their flickerfields.

@SOlyer wrote:
10 warriors with a splinter cannon in a raider with splinter wracks

Why the splinter racks? They don't affect the cannon.

I find the trick with ten man warrior raiders, is to only have the warriors embark on the raider when they really need too. I want my warriors spending as little time in that raider death trap as possible. This wan't as effective in 5th as warriors couldn't move and shoot 24" like they can now.

It's also a good idea not to make a raider more expensive than it needs to be, they are fine without upgrades. When you realise they are going to be empty most of the game it make it a lot more apparent that it's not worth spending extra points on them.

Area terrain also makes warriors a real pain to deal with as they can go to ground for a 3+ cover save and still put out some decent snapshot fire thanks to their splinter cannon. An empty raider more often than not gets ignored, meaning It's far more likely to be around late game, giving you more mobility on turn 4+ when it really matters.

Warriors in area terrain with an empty raider near by are deceptively mobile. They can redeploy to an objective that is between 49-59" away in two turns (T4: 2d6 pick the highest + 2" embark range + 12" raider move + 18" flat out + T5: 6" raider move + 6" disembark + 1d6 re-rollable fleet run + 3" objective capture range). Perfect for capturing objectives in the late game.

Being on foot also makes the warriors appear less threatening. But this is quite deceiving. If you put your raider in front of your warriors squad (off to one side so they don't have to shoot through it), they can move 6" embark, it can then move 6" and then suddenly you are rapid firing a unit that was 24" away (more if you consider 2" embark range and the length of the raider! As you can fire from any point of the hull) this can really catch people off guard.

When you consider the above I find splinter racks, flicker fields and even night shields to be a bit of a trap on raiders, as they are not cheap and encourage your warriors to stay in their raiders. This reduces your target saturation and lets your opponent kill two birds with one stone (suddenly not only is that autocannon destroying your raider but it's also killing 5-6 warriors).

Hope that helps. Smile

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 14:33

@SOlyer wrote:

5 warriors with a blaster in a venom with duel splinter cannons

or

10 warriors with a splinter cannon in a raider with splinter wracks

I believe the 10 warrior squad is most common in my armies, though I'll usually run 3 of those and 2 venom squads (either warriors or wracks).

The benefits that I find with the raider squad are:

1) Separation of anti-infantry and anti-tank. Having a dark lance on the raider lets it snipe at vehicles, whilst the crew can focus on shooting infantry. With venoms, they can put out quite a bit of firepower, but if I want to fire the blaster then I have to miss out on the squad's shots.

Also, this makes it easier for the large squad to get pain tokens (since they're focussed on infantry, rather than vehicles - which yield no pain tokens).

2) Survivability. 5 Warriors will die to a stiff breeze, 10 might actually survive outside of their vehicle - especially if I can give them a pain token. In fact, my squads are often 9-man with a haemonculus attached. His liquifier adds greatly to their anti-infantry capability, and the pain token is incredibly useful.

3) Splinter Racks! They're far from ideal, but I've always liked them and usually put them on at least one of my raiders.

I find the venom squads a lot trickier to use - mainly because of their passengers. The venom works fine, but the crew inside lacks both the firepower to do much damage (unless they get very lucky with their blaster) and also the survivability to last long once their ride is dead.

I'm tempted to try 3-man wrack squads and see how that goes. Razz 
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SOlyer
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 17:44

That's all excellent input. I was thinking of getting 10 man squads on foot and buying the venoms and just deploying outside of the transports. Hmmm
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clively
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 19:16

I typically run 10 man in a raider with NS,FF and splinter racks.

I don't bother getting a SC as the splinter racks make up for it and the range hasn't helped. The main reason for doing this instead of the 5 man venom groups boils down to the rest of my typical army and the fact I want the extra bodies to help in objective missions. 10 rifles with reroll have proven to be much better than 12 SC shots. Meanwhile the typical blasters have too short a range.

I prefer sitting back and shooting from afar during the early rounds. Trying to maximize my night shields and taking advantage of night fighting ( when available ). When I close with the enemy, the rerolls on the rifle shots provide a lot of hurt.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 21:55

@SOlyer wrote:
That's all excellent input. I was thinking of getting 10 man squads on foot and buying the venoms and just deploying outside of the transports. Hmmm
For Dark Eldar, the unit buying the dedicated transport has to be able to fit in the dedicated transport.

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SOlyer
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 05 2013, 22:03

Well thanks for squashing that brilliantly bad idea lol
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callofdoobie
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 13:20

5 warriors in a dual sc venom for me, with no upgrades the unit is 120 pts, that's an INSANELY good value when you consider all it can do. I can see a case for gunboats (10 warriors in a raider w/ spliter racks) i just haven't been using them myself as of late.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 13:49

@callofdoobie wrote:
5 warriors in a dual sc venom for me, with no upgrades the unit is 120 pts, that's an INSANELY good value when you consider all it can do.  I can see a case for gunboats (10 warriors in a raider w/ spliter racks) i just haven't been using them myself as of late.  

5 warriors in a venom with extra splinter cannon is 110 points, not 120.
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callofdoobie
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 15:02

Forgot to mention the Nightshield on the venom, they are such an auto include I forget they don't come with the vehicle sometimes lol
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 08:44

Well I have always love the gunboats, since i started with the old dex. Not that I don't now how much damage a venom can do, I have a few for my incubi,trueborn and wyches, but my warriors ride in a gunboat (raider with NS&SR).

I even like to play a heavy gunboat (9 trueborn with 7 shard carbines, 2 splinter cannons and the duke in a raider with NS), not because it's so cost efficient, but because it's a great unit to play.

Mushkilla: very interesting advice (as usual). I'll try it in my next game, how well my warriors can gun on the ground, but I'm not sure that a vehicle can move, after a squad embarked that has already moved.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 11:46

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
Mushkilla: very interesting advice (as usual). I'll try it in my next game, how well my warriors can gun on the ground, but I'm not sure that a vehicle can move, after a squad embarked that has already moved.

If you embark before the vehicle moves, you can then move the vehicle and flat out as normal. If you embark after the vehicle moves it may no longer move that turn (so no flat out). It's in the transport section of the rule book (don't have it on me at the moment so can't give you the page number).

Hope that helps. Smile

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MongooseDog
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 13:11

I typically run 5 in a venom. Blaster sometimes. I have ran 10 in a raider a bit as well. I like it but always go back to the venom. in 6th with a bit less mech running around (especially where I play) I find I don't need the extra Dark Lance.

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Back to the basics. (warriors)   Back to the basics. (warriors) I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 15:31

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Crazy_Irish wrote:
Mushkilla: very interesting advice (as usual). I'll try it in my next game, how well my warriors can gun on the ground, but I'm not sure that a vehicle can move, after a squad embarked that has already moved.

If you embark before the vehicle moves, you can then move the vehicle and flat out as normal. If you embark after the vehicle moves it may no longer move that turn (so no flat out). It's in the transport section of the rule book (don't have it on me at the moment so can't give you the page number).

Hope that helps. Smile

well i guess there was a rule in the past, but anyways, good to know!

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