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 Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?

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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 16:28

What i was saying is that in the original fluff he had whitnessed the Fall, not that it still aplies now.
If you type in Tortuerer's Tale 40k into google and click on the Librarium-online there is a link to the Torturer's tale where Vact states that he was a child, due to be sacrificed. He refers to himself as the hero of the sotry.

"Well, back to our wonderful hero," Vect laughed. "As the pleasure cults grew in power and pleasingly spilt the blood of their rivals in the streets, our Lord-to-be was just a child. It was then that a great many of our people were struck by sudden apprehension. Our seers began to prophesy a great doom. Many were struck by profound grief at what had become of our society, and there was a great panic. They built the immense vessels you know as Craftworlds and fled into the stars. That was good also, for every doubting mind had been purged, and all who were left were the purist pleasure-seekers. Such gratifications as they found, you could never know. As I was saying, our Lord was but a child, serving in one of the most powerful temples of delight. He was due to be sacrificed for the greater glory of the shrine one night, a dark night that comes but once in every millennium when the stars themselves grow dim."

Vect leant toward Gideon and dexterously plucked the crystal goblet from his grasp, taking a sip of the nectar-like drink before handing it back. His eyes were blank again for a moment, and then with a visible start, he brought himself back to the present.

"Luckily for our people, that sacrifice was not to be. It was that very night that the Great Enemy was born into the universe. Even you humans have heard of that event. Our hero was on the altar, his body bared to the blade, anointed in the most exquisite perfumes and oils, his mind enraptured by the elixirs he had taken in preparation for the glorious event. As the blade touched his throat, her birth-scream screeched across the galaxy, extinguished suns, and all but wiped out our race. Her scream was joined by the death cries of countless millions of my people, their spirits ripped from their bodies by the hungering maw that is the Great Enemy. Almost all of us died that single night. The victims of She Who Is Not Named dropped to the ground as lifeless, withered husks. Some survived, but not without loss. They were the ones whose spirits were torn between the real world and the realm of Chaos. They were driven insane – half their mind within the rational world, the other half tormented by impossible visions of the Otherworld. Many ended their own lives. Others were driven into killing frenzies and rampaged through the streets slaying everything they came across, burning buildings, smashing the beautifully sculpted statues, razing the intricately ornate gardens in their madness."

Extract from Torturer's Tale.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 18:23

And of course Vect wouldn't lie or exaggerate his part in a story because archons don't do such a thing. Wink

I think that 'Torturer's Tale' is still valid but not in a way of historical facts. More like how a dark eldar would exaggerate or faked his part in a story to make him appear more powerful.

Example from 'Path of a renegade': When a raid is not that successful in rounding up slaves, the raiding dark eldars will tell tales how terrified the victims were, so they commited mass suicides whenever they caught a glimpse of a dark eldar, reducing the number of captured slaves.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 19:02

I'm not really sure that I'd want to tell Vect that he was lying. Might not be healthy. Wink

Also, I think Vect really is that old. How has he survived this long? Because he's Asdrubael Vect, of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 19:06

That is a valid point, but in the Original Codex it is speculated that he is possibly the oldest DEldar.
I know that it isn't the current story but in the year before the 5th ed release i crammed my brain full of DEldar, making it difficult to accept much of what is said in the new Codex, like how he rose up from being a slave.

Yes, he does exggerate the story greatly, as he was probably terrified of the Thirster, even though he calls himself brave, but everybody knows that arrogance and lies are the best atributes of an Archon.

It is still a good story though.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 19:11

I think he survived that long because he is a Tzeentch pixy.

He knows far too much about everything. His knowledge of other races and all of his subordinate's schemes and plots makes him seem suspiciously omniscient.
Also, the best way to save your soul from She Who Thirsts would be to give your soul over to another Chaos God. That could also explain how he survived the cataclysm that was The Fall.

Although my odd theory was disproved when the new Codex came out.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 19 2012, 09:11

I'm pretty sure that he is the oldest dark eldar in Commoragh. But I doubt that any dark eldar can get older than 2000 years with a soul intact. A possible way IMHO would be, if the Fall somehow threw Vect into the warp and spat him out several thousand years later with only a few moments time passed for him. How he could survive in there and keep his soul I have no idea, but that is the only way I see at the moment for him being around at the Fall and ruling Commoragh now.

Him being a Tzeenth pixy is an intriguing thought. Constant plotting would favor this theory, but him shunning and repressing the magical skills of an entire race would not likely exhilarate Tzeenth.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 19 2012, 14:11

Please tell me you either mean proxy or patsy, because him being a pixy just sounds stupid.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 19 2012, 16:50

According to the codex DEldar can easily get older than two thousand years old, as the Rise of Vect began in M32 When the slave named Vect founded the Black Heart Kabal and vowed to rule Commorragh.

Quote :
Please tell me you either mean proxy or patsy, because him being a pixy just sounds stupid.

Pixy, unwilling subordinate, garden gnome... you can call it whatever you want, it was just a speculation i had a while back.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 20 2012, 17:52

Alright Cavash, you convinced me.

I misread the section of 'Path of the renegade' in which I thought Kraillachs' age is depicted. His age is actually never mentioned in this novel. Thank you for making me reread this section.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 20 2012, 23:19

You are quite welcome.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21 2012, 02:38

Quote :
"Well, back to our wonderful hero," Vect laughed. "As the pleasure cults grew in power and pleasingly spilt the blood of their rivals in the streets, our Lord-to-be was just a child. It was then that a great many of our people were struck by sudden apprehension. Our seers began to prophesy a great doom. Many were struck by profound grief at what had become of our society, and there was a great panic. They built the immense vessels you know as Craftworlds and fled into the stars. That was good also, for every doubting mind had been purged, and all who were left were the purist pleasure-seekers. Such gratifications as they found, you could never know. As I was saying, our Lord was but a child, serving in one of the most powerful temples of delight. He was due to be sacrificed for the greater glory of the shrine one night, a dark night that comes but once in every millennium when the stars themselves grow dim."

Vect leant toward Gideon and dexterously plucked the crystal goblet from his grasp, taking a sip of the nectar-like drink before handing it back. His eyes were blank again for a moment, and then with a visible start, he brought himself back to the present.

"Luckily for our people, that sacrifice was not to be. It was that very night that the Great Enemy was born into the universe. Even you humans have heard of that event. Our hero was on the altar, his body bared to the blade, anointed in the most exquisite perfumes and oils, his mind enraptured by the elixirs he had taken in preparation for the glorious event. As the blade touched his throat, her birth-scream screeched across the galaxy, extinguished suns, and all but wiped out our race. Her scream was joined by the death cries of countless millions of my people, their spirits ripped from their bodies by the hungering maw that is the Great Enemy. Almost all of us died that single night. The victims of She Who Is Not Named dropped to the ground as lifeless, withered husks. Some survived, but not without loss. They were the ones whose spirits were torn between the real world and the realm of Chaos. They were driven insane – half their mind within the rational world, the other half tormented by impossible visions of the Otherworld. Many ended their own lives. Others were driven into killing frenzies and rampaged through the streets slaying everything they came across, burning buildings, smashing the beautifully sculpted statues, razing the intricately ornate gardens in their madness."

This actually seems to suggest to me that he is probably a trueborn or highborn. This sacrifice was supposed to be a honored event, the greatest of a millennia, and as a simple slave he seems to have a lot of pluck that's tolerated... those things seem to suggest that he has a bit of backing, even though he may be a slave. Being a eldar born before the fall may grant him a bit of leeway in terms of slacking his thirst for blood and pain...

Although, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that he had in fact made a deal with Tzeentch... The chaos that DE sows I think would more than make up for the fact that they don't use magik.

The real question is: if Vect was indeed born before the fall... Can he truly be considered Dark Eldar? He may live in Commorragh and rule that city, but he was not born in the shadow, as are the rest of the dark kin. Between the Eldar and the Dark Eldar, there can't be more than a small handful that were born so long ago... maybe he should actually be considered something else... Eldar Prime perhaps?

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21 2012, 17:21

He can be considered to be Dark Eldar, Ruke, as Dark Eldar is just a term that was created by the Black Heart Kabale when they were formed. Dark Eldar is translated from Eladrith Ynneas.

The Torturer's Tale does not apply to the 5th ed Codex, as it says:
Quote :
A Legacy Begins
A slave known only as Vect vows that he shall rule the Dark City, even if it takes all eternity to do so. Vect founds the Cult of the Black Heart, the first organisation to openly refer to themselves as 'Eladrith Ynneas' or 'Dark Eldar'. The Thirteen Foundations of Vengeance are laid down.

What i was saying was that it depends on which fluff and backstory that you are going off. In The Torturer's Tale he is most likely to be a Trueboren, but in the codex he is probably vat grown as he is a slave. Slave Drivers can't afford to lose profit because a slave is pregnant, making them less efficient as the bump gets in the way of Splinter Rifle assembly.

So really, you have to decide for yourself whether he is a Trueborn or not by looking at the evidence yourself and making a decision from there.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21 2012, 18:24

Actually, this:

Quote :
A Legacy Begins
A slave known only as Vect vows that he shall rule the Dark City, even if it takes all eternity to do so. Vect founds the Cult of the Black Heart, the first organisation to openly refer to themselves as 'Eladrith Ynneas' or 'Dark Eldar'. The Thirteen Foundations of Vengeance are laid down.

Seems to back up everything that is said in Tale. Remember, Commorragh was a port long before it was the dark city (13000 years before), and was already well established at the fall. C:DE give the impression on the timeline that the fall happened in the latter part of M31, and that Commorragh became a refuge between M31 and M32. It states that Vect rose from slavery and began the Cult of the Black Heart in M32. In Tale, Vect states that when he came to his senses after the fall, he gathered the sane survivors who would join him from his old pleasure cult and the nearby pleasure cults and escaped to Commorragh through the closing webway. Those Eldar would have been the foundations of the Kabal of the Black Heart.

It really all lines up, I think C:DE backs up what is said in Tale.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21 2012, 18:29

Sorry, I copied it from the Codex and forgot to mention that this was M32.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21 2012, 19:08

It's ok, didn't have to, still, if you go off the idea that the fall was in the latter part of M31, and that's a relatively safe assumption since the codex puts the rise of Commorragh between M31 and M32, then both Tale and C:DE line up.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 22 2012, 03:15

Nope, the fall was early on, from what I remember about Imperial records of the Great Crusade. The Horus Heresy was still in M.31, and that was after at least a hundred years of crusading.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 22 2012, 20:40

You can fit Torturer's Tale with the new background, altough it takes some effort. After all, the codex never mentions when Vect was born and where he was a slave, so he could have been a slave born before the Fall. Of course you'd have to then assume that he managed to survive a couple thousand years in between the Fall and his rise to power, which might stretch the suspension of disbelief. Then again, this is Vect we're talking about. It's entirely possible that he was good enough to avoid asassination attempts from his underlings and smart enough to keep low profile and avoid making enemies of factiosn big enough to crush him, and spend a few millenias slowly gathering supporters for his eventual rise to power.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 24 2012, 22:10

Indeed, there os a small chance that this could happen, but he would have needed to survive as a slave for a couple of millenia in the conditions of a slave. Sureley if the physical labour didn't break him then the psychological factors would have broken him down into somethng not fit to assemble Splinter Pistols.

Although, if he were Highborn, justifying why he should be sacrificed, then his family was probably powerful enough to have its own estates within the Webway where he could hide and scheme.

When the Eye of Terror opened I do not imagine any of the Eldar in the Webway returning to their shattered empire to capture slaves for fear of having their souls plucked from their bodies.

In The Torturer's Tale Vect gathers the survivors and founds Commorragh, however, and so the two different editions' fluff could possibly link together if you chose to cut out the end of one or the begining of the other.

Look what I found:
The Torturer's Tale.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 24 2012, 22:23

Except, the way that Tale reads is that he gathered up survivors BEFORE he went to the webway... If he was highborn, he would have gathered up survivors, went to the webway, and had a place to hang out while he figured out what was going on...

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 24 2012, 22:31

But my point is that if he did this then he would no have been a slave. It states that he founded the Black Heart Kabal, even though 5th ed says differently, so you have to discard how 5th ed Vect begins and how the Tale ends just for it to work.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 24 2012, 22:48

ah... doesn't 5th say that the black heart kabal was already established and that vect took it over?

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 24 2012, 22:53

Nope, it says, as I have already stated,

Quote :
Quote:
A Legacy Begins
A slave known only as Vect vows that he shall rule the Dark City, even if it takes all eternity to do so. Vect founds the Cult of the Black Heart, the first organisation to openly refer to themselves as 'Eladrith Ynneas' or 'Dark Eldar'. The Thirteen Foundations of Vengeance are laid down.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 24 2012, 23:28

Then that goes exactly in line with Tale!

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 24 2012, 23:37

No, because if he was going to be sacrificed then he would have most likely been a highborn, not a slave. And, in 5th ed, Commorragh had alreadybeen established by M18.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?    Is Asdrubael Vect a Trueborn?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 29 2012, 12:13

I'd say that "The Torturer's Tale" has no trouble fitting into current canon because anything that conflicts with revised fluff can be written off as Vect lying or exaggerating.

As for Vect living so long, the 5E timeline that has been quoted here establishes that he is at least 8000 years old.
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