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 What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?

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Eldritchwarmaster84
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PostSubject: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 17:12

T7 3 wound MC with a possibly way to assault infantry and take down landraiders. Im trying to find tye best way to use a Talos in lets say 1000 points. Please comment;) appreciated guyz thanks Very Happy
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 17:58

Well, in terms of upgrades, I'd probably give it the TL-liquifier gun and call it a day.

With that in mind, I'd probably tend towards anti-infantry - especially if it lets you get a pain token for it early on (basically the 5+ invulnerable it's desperately in need of). After that, send it after whatever you're struggling to kill at range - either way it's a MC.

The other thing to bear in mind is that if it assaults an infantry unit and they don't flee (or all die), then it can't be shot in your opponent's turn.
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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 18:25

I tend to think of the talos in a AI role, it can beat up just about anything. In a pinch it can certainly assault the crap out of a tank especially light vehicles with crappy rear armor! Even against land raiders and equivalent you would have a chance by using smash attacks instead. Potentially up to 4 smash attacks if you rolled a 6 on the dice (d6+1/2=3.5 and then round up i believe) and at S10.

Thus go AI to get the pain token if you can from shooting and assault w/e you need to.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 19:44

I think they do best 2 things and for 2 things they are taken:

1) Area denial. This is where your question mostly directed. They are great area denial unit when equiped as multi-role. Meaning liquifier gun, heatlance/splinter cannon. Splinter Cannon is very reliable choice, it will always do something. Can grab that pain token from wounded squad.

2) Draw fire. When you aimed to storm them across the board your kinda let the steam off from your other units. Meaning you can capiutalise on that and gain an advantage.

As with all other units use redundancy rule:
One is none, two is some.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 20:55

Liquifier and haywire, plus chain flails *or* extra attack if you have the pts
Its multipurpose, but it main purpose is to draw fire. Just charge it down the middle

I just wish we could take a Cronos and two Taloi as one H/S

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 21:12

@DominicJ wrote:
Liquifier and haywire, plus chain flails *or* extra attack if you have the pts
Its multipurpose, but it main purpose is to draw fire.  

Can't have liquifier and chain flails. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 11:04

I find getting the Talos in to range is a problem. Correct me if i'm wrong but a 6" move just isn't enough ..
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 11:32

@CheZZoR wrote:
I find getting the Talos in to range is a problem. Correct me if i'm wrong but a 6" move just isn't enough ..

Yeah - it's the same problem a lot of MCs face. T7 seems durable, but missiles wound it on 3s and ignore its save - and 3 wounds really isn't many.

It's why I prefer the Chronos (with spirit vortex) - it's a real threat to a lot of infantry, but can also throw AP3 large blasts 18" away. It's also a lot easier to get a pain token for it early on, after which it can start handing them out to my other units. And, whilst it's not as good as the Talos in combat, it's still a MC - and T7 with a 3+/5+ can be a real pain to bring down in combat (especially if they don't have a power fist).
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 11:39

The only problem with the talos is that it competes with the ravager our main source of turn 1 AT.

@CheZZoR wrote:
I find getting the Talos in to range is a problem. Correct me if i'm wrong but a 6" move just isn't enough ..

Does it need to be fast though? Does it need to get across the board?

It has a 36" range splinter cannon and can sit in midfield where all the objectives are and then your opponent needs to come to you. It's an area denial unit. Start it 12" into the board in area terrain (Monstrous creatures now benefit from area terrain), move it forwards 6" or 6"+d6 (run) if there are no targets, and you are in the middle of the board turn 1-2, and can threaten anything within 18", cause it's not like overwatch bothers a talos, so there is no reason not to try a 10-12" charge. With the liquifiers anything that comes within 20" (6" move + 8" flame template) is going to be in trouble, whilst the 36" range twinlinked splinter cannon can just cut up infantry/oppoents scoring units whilst you sit and wait for your opponent to advance. The splinter cannon is also great for getting a pain token on it ASASP. Very Happy

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CheZZoR
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 11:43

@Mushkilla wrote:
The only problem with the talos is that it competes with the ravager our main source of turn 1 AT.

@CheZZoR wrote:
I find getting the Talos in to range is a problem. Correct me if i'm wrong but a 6" move just isn't enough ..

Does it need to be fast though? Does it need to get across the board?

It has a 36" range splinter cannon and can sit in midfield where all the objectives are and then your opponent needs to come to you. It's an area denial unit. Start it 12" into the board in area terrain (Monstrous creatures now benefit from area terrain), move it forwards 6" or 6"+d6 (run) if there are no targets, and you are in the middle of the board turn 1-2, and can threaten anything within 18", cause it's not like overwatch bothers a talos, so there is no reason not to try a 10-12" charge. With the liquifiers anything that comes within 20" (6" move + 8" flame template) is going to be in trouble, whilst the 36" range twinlinked splinter cannon can just cut up infantry/oppoents scoring units whilst you sit and wait for your opponent to advance. The splinter cannon is also great for getting a pain token on it ASASP. Very Happy

True enough. I guess it depends on your play styles and what kind of army you're facing but I usually find taking a vehicle (either a ravager or voidraven) works better for me against the armies I face most often.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 11:51

@CheZZoR wrote:
True enough. I guess it depends on your play styles and what kind of army you're facing but I usually find taking a vehicle (either a ravager or voidraven) works better for me against the armies I face most often.

Indeed, in my opinion they are one of the hardest units in the codex to use properly as they are all about positioning and control of territory. You just can't play them on autopilot like ravagers and like I said earlier when you take a talos you lose out on turn 1 AT.

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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 12:01

In that case, liquifier, extra attack, and haywire.
Same tactics as mush, sit it in the middle as an "I'll eat you if you come near"
I take the haywire over the splinter because I already have 16 splinters on venoms

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 16:04

@Mushkilla wrote:

Does it need to be fast though? Does it need to get across the board?

It has a 36" range splinter cannon and can sit in midfield where all the objectives are and then your opponent needs to come to you.

A couple of things:

1) Why are the objectives midfield? Did your opponent put his objectives there, or did you? I ask because I generally see people just placing their objectives in their deployment zone, where they can be defended more easily.

2) If all the objectives are midfield, then your opponent has less distance to cover in order to reach them. So, if he wants, he can spend a turn or two killing your talos, and then advance towards the objectives.

@Mushkilla wrote:
With the liquifiers anything that comes within 20" (6" move + 8" flame template) is going to be in trouble

Well, I imagine it would have to get closer than 20" - threatening one model with a S4 template isn't scaring anyone. Razz

@Mushkilla wrote:
whilst the 36" range twinlinked splinter cannon can just cut up infantry/oppoents scoring units whilst you sit and wait for your opponent to advance. The splinter cannon is also great for getting a pain token on it ASASP. Very Happy

I have to ask - what kind of infantry do you face that gets cut up by a single splinter cannon? Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 16:21

Quote :

1) Why are the objectives midfield? Did your opponent put his objectives there, or did you? I ask because I generally see people just placing their objectives in their deployment zone, where they can be defended more easily.

My obectives are always his side of the board.
You only get pts for holding objectives at the end of the game, not turn 4, "defending" them is a poor strategy. If I dont table you T4, I certanly dont have enough troops and transport to cross back over the board and get back in to my zone.
If I'm really lucky, the other guy has charged in to my DZ and only at the end of the game realised there are no objectives there to score.

Quote :

2) If all the objectives are midfield, then your opponent has less distance to cover in order to reach them. So, if he wants, he can spend a turn or two killing your talos, and then advance towards the objectives.
True, but the Talos is the hardest thing we own.
Compare Talos to Ravager on the krak missile survivability stakes, and you really do want it to be shot at. Harder to wound and a better save.

Quote :

Well, I imagine it would have to get closer than 20" - threatening one model with a S4 template isn't scaring anyone.

I have to ask - what kind of infantry do you face that gets cut up by a single splinter cannon? Neutral

Already mauled squads.
Although I'm not sure where 20" comes from.
Its not going to kill 5 assault marines, but it has an outside shot of killing 2, and if those two have the relic...

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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 03 2013, 17:14

@The Shredder wrote:
1) Why are the objectives midfield? Did your opponent put his objectives there, or did you? I ask because I generally see people just placing their objectives in their deployment zone, where they can be defended more easily.

Objective placement is quite a complex topic in and of itself. If you are playing a very aggressive army you are often better off placing your objectives in the midfield as that's where most of your forces are likely to be. Placing objectives in your deployment zone and within 6" if the board edge can be considerably risky, as any unit sitting on it just needs one unlucky leadership test and it's gone.  

More advance objective placement strategies leverage the fact that no objectives can be deployed within 12" of another objective. You can use this to stop your opponent placing his objectives where he wants to. For example if you place an objective in the open but so that a piece or two of area terrain is within 12" your opponent can now no longer place his objectives in those two pieces of area terrain.

Regardless of objective placement controlling the midfield is a very important aspect of 40k, this holds true whether or not there are objectives there. If you control the midfield your opponent has to get through your forces to get to your deployment zone and your objectives. Being in the middle of the board means your army will have very short travel times to claim/contest any of the objectives on the table and or to move to engage threats.

@The Shredder wrote:
2) If all the objectives are midfield, then your opponent has less distance to cover in order to reach them. So, if he wants, he can spend a turn or two killing your talos, and then advance towards the objectives.

Talos are probably the most resilient unit in our army for their cost. If your opponent is shooting it instead of the more fragile elements of your army you should be well on the way to victory.

@The Shredder wrote:
Well, I imagine it would have to get closer than 20" - threatening one model with a S4 template isn't scaring anyone. Razz

I believe I said anything that comes within 20". I apologies for getting my maths wrong 6+8 is 14", though I do believe my use of the word within was correct? Unless there is a definition that eludes me.

The talos is about projecting fear. Can you opponent risk it rolling high on it's charge and reaching one of your units? Can your opponent risk it rolling AP1-2-3 with it's twinlinked liquifiers (these might be S4 re-roll to wound making them quite deadly)? Can your opponent risk that it might roll a 6 for it's number of attack? Can your opponent risk failing to wound it? Can you opponent risk it passing more 3+ saves than it statistically should? Can your opponent risk the liquifiers rolling above average on overwatch?

Fear is not about what a unit will do, but about what it has the potential to do.

@The Shredder wrote:
I have to ask - what kind of infantry do you face that gets cut up by a single splinter cannon? Neutral

Over the course of a game it's not unreasonable for a twinlinked splinter cannon can churn through a unit, maybe more depending on size. Combine this with the rest of your splinter fire and getting a pain token on a talos can be really easy as they can target any weakened unit with 36" and line of sight.  That's the beauty of the splinter cannon, it lets your talos get a pain token early on in the game, despite it's speed.

It's important to remember 40k isn't played in a vacuum, the talos does not operate alone, but as a key component in the greater whole that is your army.

I hope that answers your questions. Smile

EDIT - If your interested below are some illustrated battle reports where I used Talos:

BR10: The Black Buzzards VS SM Salamanders - 1500pts
BR16: The Black Buzzards VS SoB Mech - 1500pts
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS GK Mech - 1000pts

Hope that helps. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 04 2013, 11:24

I had a game this weekend where I put the two Talos out as prime targets for my opponent, they were close enough to scare him so he put lots of shots into them that would have otherwise been used to pop my transports on turn 1.

The Talos both died turn 2, but the onslaught brought about by having my transports intact on turn 2 was devastating and I can almost definitely attribute the tabling to that distraction/fire draw early on.

I use them for are denial, and to draw fire that could be really hurting my army. Of course the splinter shots I get off before they go down is just a bonus!
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PostSubject: Re: What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI?   What does the Talos Pain Engine do best at? AT? Or AI? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 10 2013, 09:16

At 1200pts, I think a cronos is a solid fixture in my list from now on.
I think its staying at home at 1800pt till I get some Haywire birdmen, but at 1200pt

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