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 Help a newbie with a shooting list

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Paradoliak
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PostSubject: Help a newbie with a shooting list   Help a newbie with a shooting list I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 31 2013, 11:29

Hi guys, first time posting here, this forum is pretty great!
So I started playing 40K about 6 months ago, and Is tarted by buying a DE Battlefore, Urien Rakarth, and Lelith Hesperax. In order to build my army as best I can with my budget, I'm looking for some help on getting a general list for a shooty army, doesn't need to be suepr competitive as I would jsut be playing with local people at the store for fun (around 500-750 points to begin with).

I know I want my 10 Kabalites with splinter racks and a Splinter cannon in a raider. I also plan on buying at least one more squad or Kabalites and Wyches. I'm not sure how to run my Wyches though, as either a unit of 10 in a Raider looking to assault, or having two groups of 5 in venoms with HWGs. The venoms seem more mobile and threatening, but the smaller squads also more fragile?

As for Elites, I really like Harlequins (rules, models, and fluff are awesome), but I've read they aren't that good, and they'd probably be out of place in a shooting list. I also like Incubi, who seem a bit better than Harleys. Would running something like a squad of 5 Harlequins (including shadowseer and troupe master), or a unit of incubi work out well with a shooting list? Do they fill the same slot as Wyches, or would the Wyches mainly be a tarpit/AV unit while Incubi do the heavy hitting. I of course have also considered Blasterborn, and they seem strong and well suited to a shooting army, though more boring than Incubi/Harlies. Any thoughts on which of these would work best in a shooting army?

I have three Reavers at the moment and they seem good, but somewhat situational. I'm not sure if I want to keep them in a shooting list or not, as they seem quite fragile, though their speed is pretty awesome as well.

Finally I was wondering about my HQ. As I said I've got Lelith Hesperax and Urien Rakarth (who could be run as a plain Haemy). Neither of these seem like particularly good options for a shooty army, though both could really make a squad of Wyches a lot more painful. Would an Archon be a better investment as an HQ?

Finally, I only have one Raider at the moment, and definitely plan on getting at least one Ravager and two Venoms when I can, since those at least seem essential, and the models are awesome.

Anyways, hoping for a bit of help pointing me in the right direction so I can start tearing my opponents to splinters!
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Help a newbie with a shooting list   Help a newbie with a shooting list I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 31 2013, 21:24

@Paradoliak wrote:
I know I want my 10 Kabalites with splinter racks and a Splinter cannon in a raider.
Just remember the racks don't work for the S.Cannon.

@Paradoliak wrote:
I'm not sure how to run my Wyches though, as either a unit of 10 in a Raider looking to assault, or having two groups of 5 in venoms with HWGs. The venoms seem more mobile and threatening, but the smaller squads also more fragile?
That's a very complicated question and tends to very much depend on what your list needs. Considering what you're talking about, I think the small HWG squads will serve you better. But literally everything you listed is potentially good - the question is what else the rest of the list has and whether you will need more AT or AI in it. At 5-700 points most friendly builds seem to favor infantry.

@Paradoliak wrote:
As for Elites, I really like Harlequins (rules, models, and fluff are awesome), but I've read they aren't that good, and they'd probably be out of place in a shooting list.
lt's an interesting situation because they compete with Incubi who are, basically, superior in most ways. I would say they strongly shine in a list featuring a strong h2h IC character who you need escorted into combat, as they are deadly effective as escorts and bodyguards.

@Paradoliak wrote:
I also like Incubi, who seem a bit better than Harleys. Would running something like a squad of 5 Harlequins (including shadowseer and troupe master), or a unit of incubi work out well with a shooting list?
Again, this depends.
I will say a Harlie squad without a Shadowseer kind of begs the question - why bother? The squad will lack grenades and also lack the Veil of Tears - that will basically make them gloriified Wyches who are footslogging. I really don't recommend that. Eithe rhave the points for the Seer or don't bother with Harlies.

@Paradoliak wrote:
Do they fill the same slot as Wyches, or would the Wyches mainly be a tarpit/AV unit while Incubi do the heavy hitting. I of course have also considered Blasterborn, and they seem strong and well suited to a shooting army, though more boring than Incubi/Harlies. Any thoughts on which of these would work best in a shooting army?
For a shooting army?
Blasterborn.
You keep saying you want a shooting army and then talk up how boring shooting units are - as a thought, maybe you should build an assault army.

That said, I can see a use for 1-2 assault units in a shooting army to help clean up messes and/or tarpit approaching assault units. Incubi or Wych squads can do this rather well.

@Paradoliak wrote:
I have three Reavers at the moment and they seem good, but somewhat situational. I'm not sure if I want to keep them in a shooting list or not, as they seem quite fragile, though their speed is pretty awesome as well.
Between bladevanes and putting a heat lance or blaster on them, RJBs can be very good for us. Generally this will come down to points, at 5-700 you should really fill most of your army with Troops, and then maybe some Elites. I don't think a shooting build will end up with enough extra points at that stage to add in a bike unit.

@Paradoliak wrote:
Finally I was wondering about my HQ. As I said I've got Lelith Hesperax and Urien Rakarth (who could be run as a plain Haemy). Neither of these seem like particularly good options for a shooty army, though both could really make a squad of Wyches a lot more painful. Would an Archon be a better investment as an HQ?
Both Lilith and Urien are vastly too expensive for 5-700 points.
Urien run as a 'counts as' Haem wuld be a very good HQ for a shooting list, pair him with 9 wyches in a Raider and give the Wyches some FNP backup, and let him sit around dropping liquifier templates on things.

An Archon could be good too, either wielding a Blaster to help with the shooting, or equipped for assault and paired with Incubi or Wyches.

For 500 points I always recommend the Haem though, he's just so affordable for what you get, and will leave a lot of spare points for your army to use elsewhere.


If I were you, I'd start putting together a couple of sample builds, it might help you understand the point limitations you will have and also help familiarize yourself with some of the units a bit more.[/quote]
[/quote]

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Paradoliak
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PostSubject: Re: Help a newbie with a shooting list   Help a newbie with a shooting list I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 01 2013, 14:28

Thank you Thor, that's exactly what I was looking for!

I find Trueborn a tad boring in that they're pretty much another Kabalite squad (though I love Kabalites). They don't have their own models though right, so I would have to convert them to make my own? That could be loads of hard and fun work I think, and yea it makes the most sense. Plus that way I can make them stand out nicely too hopefully!

Also, When the codex says "For every X models in the squad", does that include only that specific unit type, or does it include other models in the unit? For example my 9 Wyches here, can I actually take both the Razorflail and Shardnet, as I've only got 9 wyches, or does the Haemy grouped with them count as a 10th and allow it?edit: Answer is no, I only get one wych weapon.


Here's the list I'm looking at running currently, at a 750 points:

65   points - Haemonculus w/ Venom Blade and Liquifier Gun, he'll go with the Wych squad
188 points - 9x Wyches w/ a Shardnet and Impaler, Haywire Grenades, Raider w/ Dark Lance, Night Shields, and Flickerfields
195 points - 10x Kabalites w/ Dark Lance, Raider w/ Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flickerfields, Splinter Racks
220 points - 5x Trueborn w/ Blasters and a Dark Lance, Venom w/ Night shield and Splinter Cannon
66   points - 3x Reavers
Total points: 747

edited to remove second Wych weapon.


Last edited by Paradoliak on Fri Aug 02 2013, 14:11; edited 4 times in total
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Ardath Dei
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PostSubject: Re: Help a newbie with a shooting list   Help a newbie with a shooting list I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 01 2013, 19:37

Drop the dark lance trueborn, as you'll only be able to snap shot with him whilst moving. That's an expensive gun to only hit 1/6 times.

Alternatively, get 2 dl's, give the venom retrofire jets and deepstrike them somewhere they can easily get in to cover next turn. However that's 2 turns that they're not being particularly effective.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Help a newbie with a shooting list   Help a newbie with a shooting list I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 01 2013, 23:22

@Paradoliak wrote:
Also, When the codex says "For every X models in the squad", does that include only that specific unit type, or does it include other models in the unit? For example my 9 Wyches here, can I actually take both the Razorflail and Shardnet, as I've only got 9 wyches, or does the Haemy grouped with them count as a 10th and allow it?
You have to buy the unit before you can field it.
Only upon getting ready to field it can you attach an IC to it - at that point you can't be buying the unit anymore, because it has to already have been purchased to be joined - therefore, no, IC's never count for 'X'.

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PostSubject: Re: Help a newbie with a shooting list   Help a newbie with a shooting list I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 04:17

@Ardath Dei wrote:
Drop the dark lance trueborn, as you'll only be able to snap shot with him whilst moving. That's an expensive gun to only hit 1/6 times.

Alternatively, get 2 dl's, give the venom retrofire jets and deepstrike them somewhere they can easily get in to cover next turn. However that's 2 turns that they're not being particularly effective.

Would it be worth keeping the 5th Trueborn and giving him a Splinter Cannon instead of a Dark Lance?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Help a newbie with a shooting list   Help a newbie with a shooting list I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 10:51

What do you plan to usually fire your 4 Blasters at?
Because unless your answer is heavy infantry/MCs then probably the SC isn't a good pick.

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Skyboard surfer
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PostSubject: Re: Help a newbie with a shooting list   Help a newbie with a shooting list I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 11:46

You can run a squad of 3 Trueborn with one or two Dark Lances and just sit them at the back to take potshots at 36". That always works well for me as people seem to hate shooting at small units. You can take a dual splinter cannon venom as dedicated transport and just use it as a mobile gun platform but they may not be best use of points.

Oh and Thor's advice is really good, I've learned a lot reading his posts (as well as other of course!)

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PostSubject: Re: Help a newbie with a shooting list   Help a newbie with a shooting list I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 02 2013, 14:41

@Thor665 wrote:
What do you plan to usually fire your 4 Blasters at?
Because unless your answer is heavy infantry/MCs then probably the SC isn't a good pick.

So I managed to get a game in to test the list mentioned earlier, against another 750 point Tau army (great game that I just barely won, thanks to an MVP single reaver). The blasterborn did some good work, but yea the 18 inch range made it very difficult to use them safely, and the Venom got popped extremely quickly. I would be planning to use the Blasters against heavy infantry or vehicles, but getting that close to a vehicle seems a bad idea. My small unit of Reavers did very well, and seemed quite versatile, as I managed to utilize their shooting, bladevane, and assault all to good effect, so I'd like to try adding more.

@Skyboard surfer wrote:
You can run a squad of 3 Trueborn with one or two Dark Lances and just sit them at the back to take potshots at 36".

That sounds quite interesting, and like something I'd definitely like to try out. Would you recommend giving the 3rd Trueborn any other gear, like a Blaster?

Taking this advice in mind, here's an updated list:
65   points - Haemonculus w/ Venom Blade and Liquifier Gun, he'll go with the Wych squad
188 points - 9x Wyches w/ a Shardnet and Impaler, Haywire Grenades, Raider w/ Dark Lance and Flickerfields
180 points - 10x Kabalites w/ Splinter Cannon, Raider w/ Dark Lance, Night Shields, and Splinter Racks
161 points - 3x Trueborn w/ two Dark Lances, Venom w/ Night shield and Splinter Cannon
156 points - 6x Reavers w/  2x Heat lances
Total points: 750

Swapped the Kabalite squad's Dark Lance to Splinter Cannon for better shooting while moving and more shots, dropped the FF from the warrior raider and swapped the night shield to FF on the wych raider (figured its more useful since that one will be closer up). I also switched the 5 Trueborn w/ 4 blasters and a Dark Lance to 3 Trueborn with 2 DLs. I used the extra points to add three more reavers and two heat lances.
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