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shadow hunter
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 11:30

I've not really used the items in the fast attack section. So I'm after advice.

I currently have 5 original metal hellions, and 5 original bikes.

I am planning on buying 5 scorges and a box of 5 hellions.

I have been considering including the Baron though and making my hellions troops so I can capture objectives. Is this a good idea?

I tried using reavers a couple of times, but failed miserably. I did the drive by attack on a Big Mek with shock attack gun, and never even took a wound (granted there was only 3 bikes left at that point). I also tried it on a lone Autarch - and again failed to do any damage. I then normally get shot to pieces and or assaulted.

Scorges I've used once (proxied swooping hawks) and while they didn't kill much - the 2 haywire blasters prevented an Ork battlewagon firing all game. That in itself was a result for me as it had a lot of weapons on. So I was planing on using them purely in this role. Picking the nastiest vehicle and limiting its damage output, until I can get closer to take it out with other methods - or it no longer becomes a threat.

Back to the hellions, I really like them - I find them lots more deadly and usefull than reavers. I just have to be careful as just 5 cant take on too much. I currently skirt the terrain, and pounce on smaller units such as pathfinders, devestators etc. Any other uses?

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Baron Tordeck
The Helfather
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 12:56

If you do go the hellion route the Baron is a must. What he gives and for such a cheep cost its a crime not to have him.

But then again I'm biased

Twisted Evil

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The Strange Dude
Master of Raids
The Strange Dude

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Join date : 2011-05-15
Location : UK

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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 13:15

Fast Attack is a hard slot to fill because nearly all the options in it are gold and all of them have a use. Here is my opinion on those choices in no particular order;

Hellions - Fast so very very fast, good shooting, reasonable assault (though not great as the capability to take returning hits aint good). With the addition of the baron they become scoring. All that said you have to run them in bigger squads (10+) to see the benefits.

Scourges - awesome suppression unit when equiped with haywire blasters usually at least 1 glamce a turn which doesn't sound much but it is so reliable.

Reaver Bikes - a little too expensive to be a must take and a little to fragile to sink a large number of points into but as a distraction and annoyance unit they are pretty damn good. Oh and a 36" turbo combined with skilled riders means if you can keep them hidden till the last game turn they are a powerfull objective contestor.

Beastmasters - In the right list with the right set up these are truely beastly I've killed mephiston in a single assault phase, gone through 4 space wolf squads in a single game, killed vehicles by the dozen. My ideal set up is 4 masters 6 flocks and 5 Khymaera fast durable and deadly.

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shadow hunter
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 13:37

I knew there was an option I had overlooked. Beastmasters.

To be honest I've never been a fan of the old models - and I'm not willing to spend a small fortune on the new metal models. So I dont see me ever using them


I think I will be concentrating on Hellions and Scorges.

Is it worth upgrading the hellions squad leader weapon to agonisers etc? Or keep him cheap with the hellglaive?
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The Strange Dude
Master of Raids
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 14:31

For Beastmasters just do a little bit of converting to avoid the exorbatant cost (see here for ideas in 2nd post http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t41-kabal-of-the-poisoned-thorn ).

With Helliarch I'd always give them an agoniser as it really makes a difference also if your not running the baron with them don't forget to buy a PGL as they have no grenades as standard.

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shadow hunter
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 14:38

ooh, lots of pics. I'll have a look at home. I'm at work at the moment and doubt my boss will approve of my time looking at pics. At least posting sounds like I am typing up work.

Thanks for the advice on th PGL, I would probably fit it anyway, as it simply looks good. It is how many of my armies are built (what looks cool).


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GAR
Dread Pirate
GAR

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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 15:06

Beastmasters are the best choice for flat out brutality.

They are good with a mech or WWP list. You just have too many options with them to be odd ducks in any list.

Hellions, only for a WWP list, otherwise they die die die.

Reavers, I think WWP is the way to go with them.

Scourges, cool models, look great on paper, again I think they are WWP lists.

The main thin with the fast attacks in the DE codex is they are all great, but all except the beasts can't survive any shooting, so you need to get them there faster, hence WWP.

In a well played WWP list, they can be absolutely brutal.

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Xelkireth
In Exile
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeThu May 19 2011, 18:34

I love scourges. Move 12" guns with anywhere from 18"-36" gives you a total threat range of 30"-48". Combine the threat radius with the massive variety of customization available and I don't see how you can't use them in any given list.

Hug cover, shoot high priority targets, rinse and repeat.
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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeFri May 20 2011, 04:18

Hellions are also good if your running the Baron (instead of or in addition to WWP)

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Nomic
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeFri May 27 2011, 11:30

I like all FA chosies I've tried so far. Haven't used Helliosn tho as I feel they kinda need the Baron. Reavers are probably my favourite. Really fast, can be pretty surviveable thanks to insane speed and cover from turboboosting, can carry heatlance for tank hunting or just fly over things with bladevanes. I prefer to keep them in reserve so they can't be shot up in the 1st turn, then just turboboost on the board (WWP is nice way of entry too, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary due to the insane movement speed these guys have).

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Hashmal
Kabalite Warrior
Hashmal

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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeFri May 27 2011, 20:29

Having tooled around with all of our options, my observations on their tactical application follows:

Hellions: Anyone who played with the old book remembers how awful these things were. They're much improved now. Good Strength on the charge, Hit and Run, and some half-decent Assault shooting to soften up a squad before you launch in to finish it off. In addition, their change to Jump Infantry allows them to Fleet, which is useful once you get past how silly it is (I imagine a whole bunch of Hellions furiously kicking at the ground for a few more inches, like a 5 year old skateboarder). Combat Drugs are a delicious icing on the cake.

With the Baron, you can take them as Troops, and this is the only capacity in which you should be fielding them. I know, just broke your heart, but the other three options bring things the Hellions can't match: excellent anti-infantry/anti-tank and brutal assault damage. Hellions are harriers, experts in picking off wounded squads. As Troops, they're fantastic; as Fast Attack, they don't quite measure up to our other choices.

What they are: Close-ranged engagement; finisher, able to exact deadly charges against wounded squads; fast harriers.

What they are not: Incubi or Wyches. They are not a blender of all things MEQ nor are they a tarpit. They pounce on wounded squads, eliminate them, then hide and do it again. Charging them headlong into a full strength dedicated CC squad will probably get them killed.

The Noob Trap: Stun Claw. Looks fun, is very expensive for not a power weapon, and is so extremely situational. Just kill the IC and the squad he's with. No need to get fancy.

Reaver Jetbikes: Anyone who's seen me write before knows how much I love these things. Equal parts anti-tank (AT) and anti-infantry (AI), they're able to fill multiple battlefield roles - often in the same battle if you play it right! Skilled Rider allows you to shoot-'n-scoot into Cover with little fear of death, affording you some surprising resiliency. One of our three platforms for the Heat Lance, and are the best platform for it in my opinion. Bladevanes as a standard attack gives you excellent positional AI abilities, allowing you to reach out and touch those Long Fangs before they even shoot. Bladevanes upgrades are not worth it, sadly. Combat Drugs are again icing on a delicious cake - and when you get a free Pain Token off them, your opponent will curse until he's blue.

Oh, and they can Turbo Boost 36". Dark Eldar retain their crown as the fastest army in the game.

What they are: Fast engagement; backfield AI harassers; excellent AT via the Heat Lance; a royal pain in your opponent's posterior that he must deal with or eat melta death; mobile cover screen for your Raiders/Ravagers.

What they are not: Close combat masters. All the leader upgrades focus on CC, which is a bit of a letdown, as I'd like more rapid exit abilities than fighting. Bikes aren't resilient enough and don't come with enough attacks at a strength worth talking about to be a real CC force.

The Noob Trap: Bladevanes upgrades. Grav Talons take top spot here, as paying 10 points to give one guy Pinning Bladevanes is... well, terrible. Caltrops get a special mention - they're a great upgrade, but they're fantastically expensive, costing nearly as much as another bike. Neither is necessary, as standard Bladevanes are already great.

Scourges: The first Dark Eldar models I owned, the first Games Workshop models I owned, and the first models I regretted owning once I found out what they did. These guys are *much* better than they used to be. Sport the ability to take a plethora of weapons (2 per 5, which is great). Wear Ghostplate Armor, which means they get an armor save against most small arms weapons. Jump Infantry, so are a bit susceptible to crash tests but are highly mobile. The second of three units to sport the Heat Lance and only one of two units to wield the Haywire Blaster. It's a tough call for me here. Haywire Blasters allow them to remain at 24" (with a 36" threat range) and reliably suppress vehicles. Heat Lances kill vehicles, but open Scourges up to rapid fire/charges. I lean more towards the Blasters. Also, the squad wields Splinter Carbines as standard kit, making the dudes without the special weapons especially good at plugging infantry.

What they are: Excellent weapons platform. Haywire Blasters and Heat Lances recommended. Blasters get a nod, but we can field them in many other places. Dark Lances get a nod too as focus-firing up to 4 Lances is not bad, though it cripples the squad's mobility.

What they are not: CC oriented, which is what the Solarite upgrade would lead you to believe. Seriously, what's up with that? These guys fight in CC only a bit better than Tau.

The Noob Trap: Splinter Cannons. I know. I know you want to do it - to create the 10 man Scourge squad with 4 Splinter Cannons that just rains AI death. Problem is, finding appropriate targets will be tough. Scourges provide some very sexy and necessary AT shooting and you just can't ignore that. If the AI capabilities of Scourges are that frightening to your opponent, he'll deal with them quickly. They're great against hordes, but who fields those competitively any more?

I know you want to do it. Hell, I want to do it. However, all of the Scourges' other weapon options are more competitively-oriented. DE do not lack for AI shooting any more - no need to waste your precious Fast Attack on it.

*note: I'm struggling here. Scourges are in a really good spot now, so aside from a CC Solarite, there's no explicit Noob Trap. Cannons are the least competitive option, so I focused on them, but they do put out a positively gross amount of firepower against infantry. Scourges rightly compete for the top FA slot - our FA has gone from a joke to what I believe is our most competitive slot.

Beastmasters: Last but not least, the Beastmasters. Excellent CC unit, with access to a variety of beasts to fill different roles: Razorwings for a high volume of cheap rending attacks, Khymerae for Invuln saves and wound-soaking, and Clawed Fiends to sink both points and dollars - er, to catch small arms fire and S6 shots. All move like Beasts, meaning an excellent threat range. Mixing and matching Beasts allows you to customize your squad to suit your survivability needs. Beastmasters are dead weight combat-wise but provide Beasts with their leadership, which is a good thing because the Beasts' leadership is terrible on a good day.

What they are: Vicious CC squad with a lot of reach-out-and-touch-someone potential. Good against hordes with a high volume of attacks and against MEQ/Terminators with a high volume of Rending attacks. Rending attacks also come at 15 points per, which is an absolute steal considering that same model also has multiple wounds and charges like a Beast.

What they are not: Your end-all, be-all for AT. Beastmasters need support to knock things out of transports; they excel at charging in and mopping up whatever spills out. Their AT abilities are good, but the inability of the squad to get Pain Tokens (just the Beastmasters) means they're going to be hurting when return fire comes. In addition, they lack grenades - charge judiciously.

The Noob Trap: CC upgrades on Beastmasters. I wanted to say the Clawed Fiend, but he at least serves a useful role, even if he's horrendously expensive in points and dollars. Putting an Agoniser on a 1 attack model, though, is a complete waste, especially since you get no discounts because Beastmasters have an anemic attacks profile. Skip every time and use those points for more beasts.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 00:41

@The Strange Dude wrote:
Beastmasters - In the right list with the right set up these are truely beastly I've killed mephiston in a single assault phase, gone through 4 space wolf squads in a single game, killed vehicles by the dozen. My ideal set up is 4 masters 6 flocks and 5 Khymaera fast durable and deadly.

Sorry for thread res. Are the Khymaera really worth it?

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Hashmal
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 00:57

Absolutely. You're going to want something that eats S6+ firepower, so that your Razorwings don't get instantly crushed.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 02:07

I suppose at that size they've become too big a unit to hide behind a Raider. Gotcha. Razz

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 20:30

Why hide when you can trow charge at first turn mate?? Charge powerfull enough to chew 20 marines(made it last game).

And khymeras are ok, but fiend IMO is better for taking S6+ shots, they are for taking all inst kill hits/nasty wepons that sort of thing....oh and whey have 3 S4 attacks.

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Foo
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PostSubject: Re: Fast attack   Fast attack I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 15:48

Khymerae are basically there for the invulnerable save and the horrendous number of assault attacks.
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