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 How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"

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Eldritchwarmaster84
Kabalite Warrior
Eldritchwarmaster84

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PostSubject: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 25 2013, 14:29

I find when i play DE im short of AT or not enough firepower for AI for example heres the list i use

Archon with Shadowfield and venom blade

Kabalite warriors (9) in a raider with splinter racks
Kabalite warriors(5)

Reaver Jetbike Squadron(6)
Cluster caltrops x2
Heat lances x2

Reaver Jetbike Squadron(6)
Cluster caltrops x2
Heat lances x2

Reaver Jetbike Squadron(6)
Cluster caltrops x2
Heat lances x2

Ravagers x3 Dark lances(3)
(2 with 3 DL and 1 with 2 distegrator cannons and 1 DL)

Please comment and help me understand what good balanced combinations i can use like kabalite trueborn with 2 SC in a dual SC venom (33 shots(With shardcarbines))
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 25 2013, 17:06

Your first major issue, to my mind, is that what you have listed here is a 1,194 point army.
What point total is this building for? 1200?

My second thought is Cluster Caltrops are kind of garbage, and you're wasting a lot of points on them.

My third thought is you dramatically lack Troop options considering 4/6 of all games are won by Troops.

My fourth thought is the Archon is terrible paired up with the Warriors, he's kitted to assault,a nd they are kitted to sit in their boat and shoot - so what gain is he to them or them to him? (hint: none)

As far as AI vs. AT a lot of that depends on what you play against.
Do you feel this list lacks AI or AT?

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 25 2013, 17:25

@Eldritchwarmaster84 wrote:

Please comment and help me understand what good balanced combinations i can use like kabalite trueborn with 2 SC in a dual SC venom (33 shots(With shardcarbines))

Noooooo! Shardcarbines are terribly overpriced!


I echo Thor665's concerns, especially about Troops. If you find you are low on AT/AI as well as Troops, may I suggest some Wyches? Not only do they wreck everything they touch with Haywire Grenades, it seems like you have a genuine lack of CC in this army, other than the Archon, who is riding with shooty Kabalite.

Bump the 9 Kabalites to 10 and buy a SC.

Give the 5 Kabalites a Blaster and hunker by terrain.

Get some Wyches and a Raider, add Haywires and team them with the Archon.

To do this you may need to sack some points (as noted before, 1200 points? Sort of an unusual threshold) consider lossing the Cluster Caltrops, swapping the 5 Kabalites for Wyches or a unit or Reavers. I think you could manage just fine with 2 units of Reavers, especially if one of them has 2x Blasters instead of Heat Lances. Never can tell when you are going to run into those pesky Death Company or Plague Marines.
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quark!
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 25 2013, 17:48

I know when I build my lists for DE, most of my AI comes from my troops choices. I usually run 10 man warrior squads in raiders w/ a blaster and a splinter cannon. Venom builds for troops are also quite common. Minimum squads of any troop choice equipped from any of the tacticas floating around on this website will do. HW Wyches, Wars w/ a blaster, Wracks w/ Liq etc. I've also got a couple of venoms floating around w/ blasterborn, but the core of your AI can come from your troops. A good rule of thumb might be 1 splinter cannon per 150 points in your army. It's also pretty accurate for dark light as well.

Now, I don't know if you're looking to build up from the above list or to make room for more AI by dropping something. Your list is ~1250 points. One thing that sticks out to me is that you're running your archon w/ warriors. In this case, I'd suggest swapping the archon for the Duke. it'd be easy to pump up that unit's shooting (3+ poison) and buff a substantial portion of your list w/ those 18 reavers getting the drug re-roll.

On top of this change, I'd swap the 5 man warrior squad for 2-3 10 strong warrior or wych squads in raiders or 4-5 in venoms. This will put you at around 1850 points, which is a well sized army. For smaller games, consider dropping a unit of reavers and a ravager for those 2 troop units and the Duke.

As for AA, I've run a Razorwing with tepid results for AI and AA. A lot of our AA comes from our ability to simply out maneuver our opponent and force their flyers to either hover or fly off the board. Voidravens aren't too shabby either if you keep their points down.

An amended list (1850)

The Duke

Kabalite warriors (9) in a raider with splinter racks

Wyches (10) Hekatrix upgrade, venom blade, PGL, Raider - 185 X 3

OR

Warriors (10) Blaster, SC, Raider, Vehicle Upgrade - 185 X 3

Reaver Jetbike Squadron(6)
Cluster caltrops x2
Heat lances x2

Reaver Jetbike Squadron(6)
Cluster caltrops x2
Heat lances x2

Reaver Jetbike Squadron(6)
Cluster caltrops x2
Heat lances x2

Ravagers x3 Dark lances(3)
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 25 2013, 18:07

Balance is relative.
If your META is dominated by terminators and land raiders, you have different needs to someone who plays a lot of ork mobs and guard infantry.

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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 25 2013, 18:53

If, as you say, you're short on both AI and AT... then... I'm not sure what can be said.

The list itself is mostly comprised of solid units - that last Ravager should switch to having 3 of the same gun, and the Caltrops are questionable upgrades. The list has next to no troops, and having the Archon with Warriors is, as stated, awkward.

So again, what exactly is your problem? Are you finding that you lack anti-tank against IG mechwalls and the like, and then likewise suffer with anti-infantry against ork mobs? Unless you tailor to each specifically, an army that goes full-out to one or the other is going to stretch a take-all-comers list by nature... and you just have to learn to maximize your list capabilities against them.

-K-
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Mr Believer
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 25 2013, 22:28

A good solid core for the army is probably two to three Venoms carrying troops, your HQ of choice and two Ravagers. That will give you a good mix of AI and AT. I'd suggest taking the Reaver models you have and condensing/combining them down into two squads of six, both with two heat lances and no cluster caltrops. I like them, but they're too expensive. The points saved on the Reavers will allow you more scoring options, preferably something more durable in a Raider (I'd go for warriors or wracks personally, I find my wyches get shot down and wiped out before they can haywire anything). The larger squad can actually control an objective for more than a turn, whilst the smaller ones can potentially clear one for them. From this base you can add things in that take your fancy. A pair of lance Ravagers are practically compulsory, but your third heavy support option could be more of a wild card, like a Razorwing or Pain Engine.

If you're just taking the Archon to be your compulsory HQ, consider a Haemonculus instead - much cheaper, brings a pain token straightaway and makes wracks troops. In slightly larger games fielding one of them with Baron Sathonyx allows you four very different scoring options - whilst they might not be for everyone, the flexibility is nice, so that's something else to consider. I know some people don't like wracks, but I've always found them to be excellent - whether it's because my opponents ignore them or forget how long flamer templates are I don't know, but they've always been great for me.

I would say the main problem with your list is that you've overspent on Reavers, to the detriment of your scoring units. I know we're renowned for our small raiding parties nipping around in Venoms, but 14 bodies is just not enough for that points level. You might be ok if you roll The Scouring, but in other games you will really struggle. Your opponent will find it very easy to either kill off or cripple your scoring units in one turn.

Having said all that, playing DE isn't necessarily about balance - it's about out-maneuvering your opponent and applying pressure in the right areas with the right units. Having a list you don't like but the internet says is good won't mean you're going to win, so play around with what you've got and see if you can make it work for you before you go off the deep end and buy a load of stuff you don't really want!

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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 26 2013, 10:55

I love my DE but I have never won a game with them. Lots of draws. This is all very informative! The timed aggression concept is something I need to show a bit more restraint with. With my reavers I want to bladevane ASAP and they have been sacrificial but when I look through the Dark City, I see Mushkilla reserving them to preserve their existence and keeping them alive to contest the end of game. And he gets a lot of win. I have read of a magic darklight number- 1 blaster or lance for every 100 points in the army- but do you think this valid? In my area, TEQs are common, small elite armies, more so than hordes. I don't know whether weight of splinter fire or prevalence of AP2 is better so my kabalites are equipped for both eventualities.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 26 2013, 12:47

Quote :
The timed aggression concept is something I need to show a bit more restraint with
Its one way of doing it. I think more important than timing, is mass.
You can still do a mass strike on T5, but the worst thing you can do is feed your forces in to the fight piecemeal. I have 8 venoms who flat out T1 most games.
Fight your full army against a bit of theirs, and then repeat.

Quote :
I have read of a magic darklight number- 1 blaster or lance for every 100 points in the army- but do you think this valid?
I take 9 at 1800, I do pretty well. Lances are ok, but they arent the be all and end all.

Against terminators dizzies beat lances, they are our best weapon for the job.
Personaly, I just ignore terminators at first.
Once the enemy light infantry is dead, turn your splinter on them, once his vehicles are dead, your lances. Unless its a huge draigo wing, then just pummel it with everything you have.


5 Haywire wyches should wreck a stationary land raider.
I think people gravitate to lances because they are familiar, and fairly easy to use.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 26 2013, 13:33

Really mathammered competitive lists probably do have a magic number of lances, but it's perfectly possible to get a decent number in your list without it constraining you - I have 12 in my 1750 list just because they come stock on lots of stuff, and that still aloows me to take all the stuff I want which isn't as sensible (like a Razorwing and Hellions).

I can't bring myself to drop my wyches completely - I always field a unit of five with haywire grenades in a Venom because if they do get there (and that's a big if) they will most likely wreck a vehicle. Like DominicJ says, there's a lot of stuff that will do the job of lances. Some will even do it better if you can get them there. An Archon with a soul trap, the baron, beasts and grotesques can all smash a tank, even a large unit of hellions against rear armour ten will probably glance it to death.

And there aren't many times when it's a bad idea to reserve Reavers. If your opponent gets first turn they won't get their 3+ jink save against whatever is being fired at them. But if they start in reserve they can come on and boost across the entire board. The only restriction reserving places on them is assaulting, and they're better at shooting and bladevaning anyway.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 26 2013, 16:55

@DominicJ wrote:
Quote :
I have read of a magic darklight number- 1 blaster or lance for every 100 points in the army- but do you think this valid?
I take 9 at 1800, I do pretty well.  Lances are ok, but they arent the be all and end all.
Are you counting Blasters in that total?

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 28 2013, 09:26

I have taken blasters in my last few games, just three ravagers, and a whole heap of grenades.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 28 2013, 19:07

I will note the original post was a comment about Blasters *and* Lances, so you sort of need to count both in replying to that theory number of needed darklight weapons.

If you indeed take only 9 darklight weapons at 1800 and do well then I am intrigued to see some batreps, or at least convinced you have a very unique meta Wink

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 28 2013, 22:15

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t7246-1800pts-of-in-your-faceness

Thats a couple of recent lists.
One, maybe two turns of shooting is all the other guy gets before my wyches start assaulting everything. People tend to fall apart when all their walkers and transports go boom turn 2

Possibly a unique meta, but I flat out 6 venoms on my first turn, and any that survive are a dead enemy vehicle, hell, even the survivors or an explosion have a far shot!

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 28 2013, 22:45

I've never been impressed with the lances myself but I'm fairly new and was wasting a lot of shots into front armor which is a big no no with our mobility

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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 09:51

Please continue to help me learn!

So I played Sunday Wars against the Mech Guard Forgeworld List that is a bit of a local terror. 6 Leman Russ tanks, a command tank russ and a hell hound. There were at least 50 guardsmen fodder behind an Aegis line with a quad gun to intercept my razorwing. Amongst all this steel nonsense was also a vendetta with 3 t/l las cannons in reserve. As luck would have it, all the Scouring mission objectives that were of a high value were all perched in amongst this gun line. I had to go and get him.

Let's say for simplicity that the table was set up with sizeable obscuring but not LOS preventing (think manufactorum scale) 2 storey ruins. From a birds eye view, the table looked like a five pattern on the dice, 1 ruin in the middle, 2 in his deployment, 2 in mine. It is Hammer and Anvil deployment. The guard have filled out their deployment zone with 2 tanks on the left flank, 2 tanks, one of which is a hell hound) on the right flank and the rest of the tanks evenly spaced along the line. The Quad gun is placed in the middle of the deployment zone.
At your disposal you have the accursed Kabal of the Crippled Lotus, a non-tailored generic list that I think is half descent:
3 units of 10 warriors with SC and blaster upgrades
Raiders x 3
1 unit of 5 Wyches with HG
6 RJB
Beast pack of 4 Flocks, 4 kyhmarae, 3 BM
Baron Sath
3 grots
Duke Sliscus
2 ravagers with ff, lances
1 razorwing

What would you do, DE generals, with deployment? Do I have enough balance of AT and AI?



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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 10:15

I think your challenge comes again in the list building.How were the wyches getting into combat? The grots? Where is the duke deploying?

Ravagers should always be moving, NS beat FF for overall value as you get your Jink save.
 
If your raiders are Kabalite gunboats, then your blasters are relatively wasted; for the same amount of points you could have outfitted splinter racks in each and given an arena champion a VB in the RJB's.
T5 grots are awesome, but to really make them shine Urien is boss. For the same point cost as grots you could add a venom for your wyches with enough for a Hekatrix to lead them plus 2 blasters on your RJB.
Duke is great as a force multiplier, but I don't know if he's really needed. An archon with Huskblade and shadow field costs less and has a substantially better stat line.

So to answer your question, and at the risk of being a little smarmy Very Happy , I would have set out to have a fun game knowing my list isn't optimal but I dig the models. With your above list it would be a challenge to be sure. Those Vendettas are evil!

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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced"   How much AI and AT/AA do i need to take to be "Balanced" I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 10:57

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
I think your challenge comes again in the list building.How were the wyches getting into combat? The grots? Where is the duke deploying?

Ah, the warriors were not boarding their raiders at the start

Ravagers should always be moving, NS beat FF for overall value as you get your Jink save.
I chose FF because I play Tau and I know how much it can hurt a player when all of a sudden they are naked in no cover
 
If your raiders are Kabalite gunboats, then your blasters are relatively wasted; for the same amount of points you could have outfitted splinter racks in each and given an arena champion a VB in the RJB's.
Good point!
T5 grots are awesome, but to really make them shine Urien is boss. For the same point cost as grots you could add a venom for your wyches with enough for a Hekatrix to lead them plus 2 blasters on your RJB.
I think I forgot to mention that I had a venom- with 4 incubi!! Whoopsie...
Duke is great as a force multiplier, but I don't know if he's really needed. An archon with Huskblade and shadow field costs less and has a substantially better stat line.
Yeah- my HQ is weighted

So to answer your question, and at the risk of being a little smarmy Very Happy , I would have set out to have a fun game knowing my list isn't optimal but I dig the models. With your above list it would be a challenge to be sure. Those Vendettas are evil!
The models are sweet as mate. My models that is!
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