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 beasts vs. horde armies

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Billy912
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PostSubject: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2013, 17:34

I have been playing against a lot of ork players recently and was wondering what was the best was to use beasts effectively against horde armies
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2013, 17:50

Assault? Wink

I'm not sure I really understand your question - are you curious about an optimal loadout for Beasts, or for tactics on how to get them into assault, or even tactics specifically about gaming the assault once you are in contact with an Ork mob?

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Billy912
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2013, 18:30

both optimal load out and tactics, basically any help would be appreciated
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2013, 19:23

Optimal loadouts can vary depending on the size of the game and the rest of your army. A very solid price versus power build that I have long advocated and many others seem to like is this;

(Baron Sathypants)
3 Beastmasters
5 Khymarae
4 Razorwing flocks

It is also not uncommon to beef it up with +1 Beastmaster and +2 flocks which was the standard build until (and I'll admit to tooting my own horn here) I started suggesting the smaller build around...meh, maybe just a lot of people saw the value at about the same time, I can emotionally deal with hat...I just like to pretend I am listened to that much. Wink

As far as tactics go...well, the core one versus Orks is as follows - get the charge.
Orks become dramatically less dangerous if they aren't the ones charging. Considering the movement rate of Beasts and their ability to jaunt straight through cover, it should be easy to always get the charge - after all, you functionally have a 19" or so threat radius (with the benefits of fleet) while most other armies are packing 13" or so. Big advantage.

Once combat is joined I would almost always issue a challenge - the Ork *will* accept, then send a Beastmaster off to duel his Nob. You probably lose the Beastmaster, but you prevent any Klaw shots on your lads. The other option is, if it's possible, make sure to base the Nob with Khymarae - you do not want him swinging at Birds, only Dogs. This does presume he's packing the Klaw or Big Choppa, if he's not...well, it's a derp Ork build and you can stomp it however you please.

On the charge the unit I described above (not counting Sathy) will, on average, kill 8-9 Orks in assault.
So, shoot the mob as it approaches, then send in the Beasts to gut it after it's a little whittled down.
Rinse and repeat.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2013, 21:15

All depends on what you are charging.  6th ed has seen the switch over to Shoota armed boyz over Sluggas thanks to the skullcracking power of Overwatch and the unreliable nature of charging with non-Fleet infantry.  If it is Shoota Boyz send in a bait unit to draw Overwatch prior to charging with your Beasts.  A 30 strong Boyz squad can pump out 60 shots, 10 which should hit before you make contact.  That can ruin your day immediately.
 
And I think may get more value out of having T4 as your most numerous toughness value by having more Khymarae.  Razorwings are great and all, but T4 never shined so much as when it was attacked by S3.  That, and I generally find the Khymarae to be the better buy something T4 and low save like Orks.
 
And of course, blow them to bitz with shooting attacks first to weaken their chances of winning CC.  Every Ork counts.  If you get them low enough before charging, your CC kills might reduce them below that pesky 11 Ork Fearless threshold.
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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2013, 21:30

I would also suggest to try and time spending 2 rounds in assault with whatever mob you charge i.e. don't pick on one you may slaughter in a single round of combat, which leaves you vulnerable to counterattack. After the 2nd round of combat (in your opponent's turn), just use Sathywhatsit's hit'n'run ability to leave combat and go pick on another target.

The other thing would be not to go after a mob with too many other mobs close by, if you can. Orks getting the charge on your beasts can really hurt (even more so if they can shoot first), so try and pick on an isolated unit (or use the rest of your army to shoot the green out of anything that can effectively countercharge you in the next Ork turn).

If you're a gambling person, you could let the Baron tank a dangerous character in a challenge, relying on his shadow field to protect him while the beasts tear apart the rest of the mob. This may end up your only option when you run out of beastmaster pawn sacrifices challenge monkeys glory hunters.

I'm currently using a unit along these lines:
Baron
3xbeastmasters
10xKhymerae
2xrazorwings

It's large & imposing, great for area denial (literally & psychologically), can take a beating and has plenty of attacks. It's down on rending, but that's not really an issue vs orks (well, most of them anyway). The other issue is morale and running away; try not to lose too many assaults eh?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2013, 22:51

@False Son wrote:
All depends on what you are charging.  6th ed has seen the switch over to Shoota armed boyz over Sluggas thanks to the skullcracking power of Overwatch and the unreliable nature of charging with non-Fleet infantry.
Any Ork player running Sluggas over Shootas in 5th was out of his gourd - they've consistently been better in both editions.

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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 23 2013, 22:54

@Thor665 wrote:
Any Ork player running Sluggas over Shootas in 5th was out of his gourd - they've consistently been better in both editions.

+1

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 24 2013, 17:50

@Thor665 wrote:
@False Son wrote:
All depends on what you are charging.  6th ed has seen the switch over to Shoota armed boyz over Sluggas thanks to the skullcracking power of Overwatch and the unreliable nature of charging with non-Fleet infantry.
Any Ork player running Sluggas over Shootas in 5th was out of his gourd - they've consistently been better in both editions.

While I don't disagree, i'm going by what has been said on other forums. The Furious Charge change for some reason was a big hang up. The Addition of Overwatch makes Shootas a standout. The loss of No Retreat! favors a more CC oriented build, but even still, Shootas. So many Ork armies are built on Battlewagons and other transports, the extra dakka of the Shoota is the go-to.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 24 2013, 18:18

Well;

The change to Furious Charge nerfed Khorne Beserkers - it did basically nothing at all to Orks as the Initiative change was basically meaningless to them versus anything but Imperial Guard Blobs.

The addition of Overwatch (and, really, all Snap Shot rules) make Ork shooting in general a standout. But then again, 6th edition made shooting better than it was and assault worse across the board - that said, even under 5th edition Shoota Boys were provably better than Sluggas due to their shooting.

Battlewagon Shoota Boy builds are a 5th edition build and have been around for quite a while.

I'm not saying that you haven't found people discussing this for the first time just recently - but I am saying that those people are not exactly on the cutting edge of Codex: Ork tactics.

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fuhrmaaj
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 11:15

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
Any Ork player running Sluggas over Shootas in 5th was out of his gourd - they've consistently been better in both editions.

+1

+2

Shootas (the gun) are a pretty ridiculous weapon considering they're mounted on a 6pt platform. Also Shootas (the unit) already have 2 attacks and furious charge, so dropping the shooting for one measly extra attack per model when you're already getting 60 attacks (90 on the charge, depending on base contact ofc) wasn't worth it even with furious charge even in 5th edition. I haven't stopped swimming in 3x30 Shootas since the new book dropped at the end of 4th making them stronger and cheaper.


As far as using Beast Packs against Orks, I want to second the notion that you shouldn't charge mobs when they're stuck together because you open yourself up to being assaulted by every unit which can't find something to shoot as well as some that can because they don't hit very reliably so might as well kill something. Beast packs are probably not at their most effective against assault armies like Orks, but if you are going to use them then try to hunt down stragglers or use them them as a distraction unit. You might be able to destroy vehicles with them as well, especially if you've got the Baron.
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 11:29

Shoot orks as long as possible, then charge when he has less to assault you back with.

If he has lots of lootas, kill them. They hurt.
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crion
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 13 2013, 08:52

I'm contemplating a beast countercharge unit possibly with the baron. Now my friends have alot of S6/S7 weapons meant especially for me in our meta IG/Ork/CD/Eldar.

Is it possible average toughness to 50% more than 3? My concern is that the enemy will focus with their S6/S7  weapons for a round just to one-shot the birds?
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PostSubject: Re: beasts vs. horde armies   beasts vs. horde armies I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 13 2013, 09:37

Quote :
My concern is that the enemy will focus with their S6/S7 weapons for a round just to one-shot the birds?
Then they're not shooting your vehicles. Birds are cheap. You win that round.
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