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 Taming the Wind

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Dark_Kindred
Kabalite Warrior
Dark_Kindred

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Join date : 2012-12-30

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PostSubject: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 22 2013, 04:53

Greetings Fellow Archons:

I would like to discuss some "Wind Rider Cheese" I saw at a tournament this passing Saturday. The player in question brought an 1850 point list that consisted entirely of Vypers, Shining Spears, Wind Riders, and a Wraithknight equipped with a Sun Cannon. I did not play against this army nor did I review the army list in detail but I think that this player was bringing about 70-80 Jetbikes to the table. After having a conversation with my Tau/Eldar friend at the tournament, the list was simply labeled cheese and the player a tool who shelled out $1500+ on a poorly pained Biel Tan army.

After thinking about it, I am not entirely sure that the vaunted Wild Rider Host is as uncrackable it would initially appear. For the purposes of this discussion, I will be using my list because (1) it was what I brought to the tournament and (2) I'm not into tailoring. Please feel free to make points that are not relevant to the list I used. Also, please excuse me for being long winded.

This is the brief summary of what I took: Vect, 2 Haemonculi, Farseer, 5 Rangers, 3 venoms w/ 5 Kabalites w/ Blasters, 10 Warriors in Raider w/ SR, 7 HWG Wyches led by Hekatrix w/ Agonizer & PGL, 2 Ravagers, and a Razorwing Jetfighter. Note also that all my vehicles had Night Shields.

There are several immediate strengths I can see. First, the list takes the already small range of Wind Riders and reduces it to 6 inches. This is actually a big deal because it forces the Jetbikes to crowd up just to get in range. Second, there isn't a good amount of anti-tank in the Saim-Hann list--just the Shining Spears, Vypers, and possibly shuriken cannons on Jetbikes. Third, Dark Eldar can actually respond well because of their open topped transports.

Depending on whether or not I got first turn, I would try to focus fire down the Wraithknight, Vypers, and possibly Shining Spears. Assuming that the Wraithknight is placed behind a ruin, 6 Twin-linked Dark Lances ought to cause ~2.2 wounds. 36 Splinter shots ought to cause another 4. Between the 9 Dark Lances and 36 Splinter Cannon shots available on the board Turn 1, I am fairly confident that I could take down a Wraith Knight. If he were to hold it in reserve, I would take out whatever was on the field, preferably Vypers and Shining Spears. I would keep on doing this until there were only Wind Riders left.

That would be the easy part. The hard part, as Mushkilla has clearly demonstrated, is pinning the bikers down--doubly so because they are troops. Theoretically, the Wind Riders could just play keep-away and then move for turn 5 for the objectives.

Anyway, please give me some insights

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Last edited by Dark_Kindred on Tue Jul 23 2013, 23:27; edited 1 time in total
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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 22 2013, 05:14

Focusing so muchon the knight is your first mistake. Its a distraction unit i would only fire at it if there were not more pressing matters. All those jetbikes that havent moved dont have a cover save from zipping around. You should be hitting those if you go first.imho

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 22 2013, 05:31

Without knowing his list it's hard to say.
But depending on how many Vypers he had the Night Shields are hardly an issue for him - he could bat your boats out of the sky with the Vypers scatter lasers and then let the bikes do cleanup on your disembarked men.

Also, I would consider the Wraithknight a mistake to make a priority target - it's basically a glorified plasma cannon that he is paying through the nose for - ooooh, spooky. Spread out your units and the damage you can take from him is minimal at best presuming he hits, pens, and gets through your jink/cover saves. Single hit, high strength weapons are less concern for us than multiple hit mid-strength weaponry - hordes of scatter lasers on Vypers is a far larger concern to my mind for your list.

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Dark_Kindred
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 22 2013, 05:59

@Thor665 wrote:
Without knowing his list it's hard to say.
But depending on how many Vypers he had the Night Shields are hardly an issue for him - he could bat your boats out of the sky with the Vypers scatter lasers and then let the bikes do cleanup on your disembarked men. Single hit, high strength weapons are less concern for us than multiple hit mid-strength weaponry - hordes of scatter lasers on Vypers is a far larger concern to my mind for your list.

Oh no, I understand that. The weird thing was that I only saw 2 Vypers. I'm also fairly sure he not only had an Autarch but a Farseer and Seer Council as well. That would imply that he had to spam his Strength 6 from his Jetbikes and I didn't understand how he dealt with "real" armor outside of the Shining Spears, his HQs, and possibly his Vypers. That's why I was so confused--my friend's Landraider army could have crushed him on the killpoint mission without breaking a sweat. IMO, that is a pretty gross oversight, particularly in an army that has access to Lances and Haywire Grenades.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 22 2013, 06:35

If he lacked Vypers I don't think I would even want to call that list 'cheese'.
I suppose he was hoping the wychblades on his Seer Council was his tool of choice to crack vehicles then - it would certainly eat through DE vehicles with ease.

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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Re: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 24 2013, 14:58

Have you tried using Wracks w/ 2 or 3 Liquifier Guns in a Raider w/ Dark Lance. Imagine the look on his face as your squad murders droves of jetbikes! By the way, does he us a Crimson Hunter's.
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 24 2013, 15:52

Funny how a list that, a couple of months ago, would have been "fluffy" and largely uncompetitive is suddenly "cheese".

Wave Serpents (and really, their new shield-gun) is my biggest fear of the new Eldar - mainly because of a huge range and ignoring cover means I can't expect Raiders to survive. So if the army doesn't have those, it's a nice step toward victory.

In terms of that list? He has little in terms of ranged anti-tank - hit the Vypers first to kill their range... I'd even be tempted to huskblade the Wraithknight... I have enough dice to hit a 6. But beyond that, you're killing marines... easy.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 24 2013, 17:21

@jbwms713 wrote:
Funny how a list that, a couple of months ago, would have been "fluffy" and largely uncompetitive is suddenly "cheese".
This happens all the time.

Cult of Speed used to be a Cheese Ork list, now it's a fluff list.
Salamanders used to be cheese MEQ, now they're back to being a regular and fluffy list.
Also, Dark Eldar Raider/Venom spam is both cheese and fluffy at the same time.

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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Re: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 24 2013, 21:24

To clarify, I wasn't looking for list building advice but tactical advice. I do agree that Wave Serpent spam is...unpleasant... Anyway, this is the list I brought to the tournament:

Head Quarters
• Vect 240
• Haemonculus w/ LFG, Haemonculus w/ Venom Blade 115
• Farseer 100
Elites
• 5 Incubi in Raider w/ Dark Lance and Night Shields 180
Troops
• 5 Rangers 60
• 5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster in Venom w/ 2 SCs & Night Shields 135
• 5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster in Venom w/ 2 SCs & Night Shields 135
• 5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster in Venom w/ 2 SCs & Night Shields 135
• 10 Kabalite Warriors in Raider w/ Dark Lance, SR, & NS 170
• 7 Wyches w/ HWG led by Hekatrix w/ Agonizer & PGL in Raider w/ Dark Lance & NS 194
Heavy Support
• Ravager with 3 Dark Lances and Night Shields 115
• Ravager with 3 Dark Lances and Night Shields 115
• Razorwing Jetfighter with 2 Dark Lances and Flicker Fields 155

Obviously this wasn't a "hard core" tournament by any stretch of the imagination. Still, I did very well (was the second best general by score. This guy had every secondary objective and won every game).

From what I recall, he brought something like this:

An Autarch
a Seer Council or Farseer
~60 Windriders
Some Shining Spears
a few Vypers (like 2)
Wraithknight with Suncannon

My guess is that he put lots of Shuriken Cannons on his Jetbikes for light armor and was probably relying on Shining Spears, Bright lances from Vypers, and possibly his Seer Council/Farseer to deal with high AV targets.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Taming the Wind   Taming the Wind I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 25 2013, 14:45

Seer Council is very dependant on passing LD 8 psychic powers off of the warlocks, especially the shrouding / +1 armorsave ones. Also if you charge them, they dont have much bite. Its nothing new, and personally I feel its lost alot of its edge due to not being able to always have fortune.

The Autarch could be dangerous, but again it all depends on how he was equiped. From what it looks like, he was most likely linked up with the seer council to give them more attack power on the charge. If so, then again if you charge them, he doesnt get his laser lance bonus. Makes him a weakling.

If he is a Bikertaire (biker autarch w/ mantle) then he is there to draw fire. He should be largely ignored, but make sure he cant do anything overly good that turn. Limit his damage while you take care of the rest of the army. If you have to assault him, he doesnt get a 2+ re-rollable coversave in combat.

Shurikens are great for AI, but arent really optimal for AT. How Eldar do S6 spam is just in pure numbers. 60 Jetbikes is alot of cannons in there, but its worse if you arent meched up. Mech up and try and peel some of those cannons off before he gets in range and can do some damage.

Spears are interesting. I liked them last codex, but they were really expensive for what you get. basically they are overpriced reavers with alota punch in combat, but again like the seer council, charge them and they lose alot of their strengths. I wouldnt focus on them first, but they can cause a problem.

Vypers should be your first target. If he is using them to crack heavy AT, then you should down them first. They are easy first blood too, as a few lances into them and they should drop.

The wraithknight w/ starcannon seems off to me. He should really be running wraithcannons due to how little AT he actually has, but I digress. Its a distraction unit. He runs it around, probably in cover, and keeps it firing its stupid plasma cannon. Just poison it after you have taken care of the rest of his army. Its alota points and could easily be more vypers or war walkers... a way better option imho.

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