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 Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?

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PostSubject: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2013, 01:02

Even though im paying 15 points per model that is mediocore at what they do, they do got infiltrate which i guess is alright but at least make them a really good CC unit or bump their save or T a little more or just reduce the cost for them. Baleblast is neat but theres better options like incubi or wyches or even wracks. Kheradruakh is the Lord of mandrakes himself yet he cant join mandrakes or any unit and im paying 140 points for an HQ near to useless in what he does. Please Message me tactics for these guys, i think they may be a descent distraction unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2013, 05:02

This is really a tactics question, not a question about rules - so moving it over to the appropriate forum.

As a quick answer to your question - I have to admit I'm pretty down on Mandrakes as a distraction unit. The only players they should distract are players who would be scared of being assaulted by, basically, glorified (And slightly weaker) Space Marine Scouts. Ooooh, scary. I figure anyone who'd fall for them as a distraction is probably going to be outplayed in any case, and anyone who wouldn't fall for it you should probably not be wasting points on a useless unit when facing them.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 22 2013, 12:27

Agreed. They are pretty useless... I like the models though.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 22 2013, 17:55

A guy at my local swears by them since Tau have started to dominate the scene. They actually absorb shots fairly well even with Ignore Cover. A 5+/5+ with FnP isn't too shabby. And, they still beat the snot out of Tau and Kroot in CC. But, as always, it is all about getting them that 1st pain token.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 08:28

I have no experience with them myself but it seems to me that the only way to use them is to get a Pain Token on them early (such as via attached Haemy). They get a bunch more resilient with the FNP, and have Stealth so they can be somewhat hard. Their guns are reasonably good against certain armies being a rare weapon with a strength value (and 4's not bad against infantry) and with decent AP value shooting twice out to a decent range. You could probably melt through Tau troops choices in some situations.

I think the trap is that people only consider their melee capability. They're okay in melee but should probably only use that for clean up. They were better last edition as well with the 4+ FNP, too bad that changed.

Overall, point-for-point I'd rather just be taking warriors in a transport but they could be situationally good in some lists.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 17:26

Having them man a Quad Gun is about as good as it gets. They get the cover save and the chance to earn a pain token before shots fired.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 17 2013, 21:08

I brought a box, they're fun to use in friendly games especially the decapitator but I would never use them in a competitive games.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 18 2013, 14:38

Do they have any use in The Relic? That scenarios benefits from infiltrators and they are about the only ones we've got. On the other hand, we have things like Reavers that can get deep in a hurry.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 18 2013, 23:39

Proxy for Wyches or other assault units perhaps so you get to use the models? Personally the Haemonculi/Gladiatorial thing doesn't appeal to me aesthetically, so I might do that. At 15 points a pop they are very expensive for what they are supposed to do - and thanks to 6th ed they aren't able to assault after flanking which means they'll almost certainly die after they turn up.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 20 2013, 16:07

If there was a way to make them Troops or give them a grenade effect for assaulting units through cover, yeah, sure I could totally justify the cost.  15 points isn't terrible, but not fantastic either.  The lack of grenades puts them thoroughly in the meh category.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 20 2013, 16:23

Phil Kelly seems to be under the impression that the lack of assault grenades is not a big issue for assault units. Unfortunately, everyone else thinks it is and therefore you never see Warp Talons, Howling Banshees, Incubi without an Archon, Mutilators, Mandrakes etc, etc, etc. Another common theme of these units is that they don't usually have any means of getting into assault range safely.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 20 2013, 17:02

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Phil Kelly seems to be under the impression that the lack of assault grenades is not a big issue for assault units. Unfortunately, everyone else thinks it is and therefore you never see Warp Talons, Howling Banshees, Incubi without an Archon, Mutilators, Mandrakes etc, etc, etc. Another common theme of these units is that they don't usually have any means of getting into assault range safely.
I think he borderline hates assault units. After 6th edition nerfed assault into the dirt players were hoping to see assault grenades (or at least the option) on assault units. Laughing maniacally, Phil gave assault grenades to Guardians and Dire Avengers then nerfed the Banshee mask and the Shadowseer not to mention the disaster that occurred all over every page of the Chaos book.

He also has some grudge against Ld. Chaos Marines running off the board and Warlocks being unable to lead units or cast powers. Handy dandy.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 20 2013, 17:49

Assault is not nerfed into the dirt. It is just best left to the experts with Fleet, like us. The days of a GK Paladin multi charge knocking out 1/3 of your army in one turn are over.

And the Ld game has been a back and forth forever. Fearless lost No Retreat! Fleeing units can now rally abover 25%. Pinning and Morale tests are now not mutually exclusive. But hey, most armies have some way of being Fearless or rerolling. Ld is sort of a joke. It matters in CC, where a failed Morale Check can mean instant death. But, with things like Fearless, ATSKNF and Stubborn all over the place, Sweeping Advances are not what they used to be. LDs being lowered is not a problem, leaving or expanding the scope of Fearless is.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 21 2013, 03:58

@False Son wrote:
Assault is not nerfed into the dirt.  It is just best left to the experts with Fleet, like us.  The days of a GK Paladin multi charge knocking out 1/3 of your army in one turn are over.
Paladins aren't taken on account of the change to how multi-wound models take damage and not because of variable charge ranges. Grey Knights still have some of the most intimidating melee units in the game and I'm not sure which melee DE units are being taken with any regularity to say that we're better at it than any other army.

@False Son wrote:
And the Ld game has been a back and forth forever.  Fearless lost No Retreat!  Fleeing units can now rally abover 25%.  Pinning and Morale tests are now not mutually exclusive.  But hey, most armies have some way of being Fearless or rerolling.  Ld is sort of a joke.  It matters in CC, where a failed Morale Check can mean instant death.  But, with things like Fearless, ATSKNF and Stubborn all over the place, Sweeping Advances are not what they used to be.  LDs being lowered is not a problem, leaving or expanding the scope of Fearless is.
I think it's generally a good thing that Ld values are becoming varied and I like most of the changes you have mentioned. The specific things which frustrate me are how CSM are flying off the board when they lose a quarter of their squad to shooting when identical models in SM have ATSKNF for +1pt. VOTLW is not exactly ATSKNF, but it effectively costs the same. I would say that there's a reason that Dark Angels are taking multiple tactical squads and CSM won't take a single unit of chaos marines.

The Eldar issue I was referencing was that Warlocks are Ld 8, just like the squads they lead. In previous editions they chose a special rule to improve the survivability of the unit but in the new edition this ability is now a random psychic power, which is not the same. Then Warlocks only have Ld 8 and can't cast the power with any semblance of reliability. Embolden used to be a popular power for keeping Guardians on the board, but now Guardians are very unreliable. This might be fine if Warlocks weren't so expensive, but I find it hard to justify using any at their cost when they just aren't bringing much to the table.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 21 2013, 20:31

@fuhrmaaj wrote:

I think he borderline hates assault units. After 6th edition nerfed assault into the dirt...
It's not just Phil Kelly, and I can see where they're coming from. It's not fun to have a bunch of close combat monsters assault you in one turn and wipe you out without the possibility of you doing anything about it. Did they overcompensate? Maybe. For things with high armour and/or toughness, it seems to balance out. It's only those that are good in close combat but were not designed to survive being shot at that got left behind. Like genestealers.

And yes, I mean wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 21 2013, 21:04

@fuhrmaaj wrote:
Paladins aren't taken on account of the change to how multi-wound models take damage and not because of variable charge ranges. Grey Knights still have some of the most intimidating melee units in the game and I'm not sure which melee DE units are being taken with any regularity to say that we're better at it than any other army.
Paladins were a bad example because of the multi wound changes. But I meant CC deathstars. They still work, but thanks to Overwatch and the 2D6 roll it is not the dependable win button they used to be.

And it is less that we dominate in CC by sheer overwhelming power, which is more a GK thing, or numbers like Orks. We have the ability to assault effectively thanks to Fleet on most of our non-Coven units. Being able to reroll the charge distance is the differance between doing your job and not.

Quote :
I think it's generally a good thing that Ld values are becoming varied and I like most of the changes you have mentioned. The specific things which frustrate me are how CSM are flying off the board when they lose a quarter of their squad to shooting when identical models in SM have ATSKNF for +1pt. VOTLW is not exactly ATSKNF, but it effectively costs the same. I would say that there's a reason that Dark Angels are taking multiple tactical squads and CSM won't take a single unit of chaos marines.
I look at it as CSM Ld finally falling in line with the realm of sanity. It was always too high to begin with. Besides, ATSKNF was always a loyalist strength that people overlooked. You can only make loyalists and chaos marines so similar.

Quote :
The Eldar issue I was referencing was that Warlocks are Ld 8, just like the squads they lead. In previous editions they chose a special rule to improve the survivability of the unit but in the new edition this ability is now a random psychic power, which is not the same. Then Warlocks only have Ld 8 and can't cast the power with any semblance of reliability. Embolden used to be a popular power for keeping Guardians on the board, but now Guardians are very unreliable. This might be fine if Warlocks weren't so expensive, but I find it hard to justify using any at their cost when they just aren't bringing much to the table.
Forgive me, I don't have the Eldar codex atm. But, doesn't make Warlock powers the same as the randomly determined generalist powers out of the back of the book? I'm not crazy about random powers for a squad character either. But, one major criticism i've always had of Warlock from 3rd edition onward was that the powers were purchased. How many times did you ever see Destructor used? Or, heck. Eldrich Storm on the Farseer side?
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2013, 00:51

@False Son wrote:
Quote :
The Eldar issue I was referencing was that Warlocks are Ld 8, just like the squads they lead. In previous editions they chose a special rule to improve the survivability of the unit but in the new edition this ability is now a random psychic power, which is not the same. Then Warlocks only have Ld 8 and can't cast the power with any semblance of reliability. Embolden used to be a popular power for keeping Guardians on the board, but now Guardians are very unreliable. This might be fine if Warlocks weren't so expensive, but I find it hard to justify using any at their cost when they just aren't bringing much to the table.
Forgive me, I don't have the Eldar codex atm.  But, doesn't make Warlock powers the same as the randomly determined generalist powers out of the back of the book?  I'm not crazy about random powers for a squad character either.  But, one major criticism i've always had of Warlock from 3rd edition onward was that the powers were purchased.  How many times did you ever see Destructor used?  Or, heck.  Eldrich Storm on the Farseer side?
Sure, but you still won't see those powers because if you roll them then you're going to swap for the Primaris. The difference between Warlock and other squad psykers is that Warlocks are Ld8 and losing him means you lose his powers. In a Brotherhood of Psykers you typically have Ld9 and if you take perils then you can choose to remove the model which doesn't have any gear.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2013, 08:45

Enough with the "the should have/they should be"-talk. Lets think of ways, how they could work.

So a pain token is pretty important. I guess either place them with an heami, infiltrat and then move a heami into unit coherency or use a cronos.
I think a cronos is very usefull, as they then can get a second PT befor entering CC.
2 S4Ap4 befor charging and S5+1 Ini5 in CC is something to write home about.
That's
1.7222 dead firewarriors
1.291 dead necron warriors
And
0.63888 dead marines(boy that is bad)
Clearly i havent taken the missing of grenades into account.

Sure, they do not look great, but as all fights the dark eldar Fight, they should be supported. Better use them as a mop up unit.

Any other comments that try to help?

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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2013, 09:18

3 Mandrakes- 45pts

Used to block: infiltrators, scout moves (Ravenwing, Daemon Dogs, anyone?).

That's about the best I could come up with.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2013, 10:07

@Mushkilla wrote:
3 Mandrakes- 45pts

Used to block: infiltrators, scout moves (Ravenwing, Daemon Dogs, anyone?).

That's about the best I could come up with.
Mandrakes comes in fi...! Oh wait threes! For some reason I've always thought fives, threes is kinda cool since they are alot cheaper to field if you got points lyin around. Could be nice actually for blockin infiltrate etc.

Hm... Maybe I'll get some mandrakes models after all.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2013, 11:15

I haven't tried this out yet (so please don't get mad if it sounds stupid o.o') but what about mandrakes+haemonculus+combat archon? Yes it becomes a fairly expensive unit, but you can outflank with them and because of the haemy you get their baleblast right out of outflank which if aimed well should hurt if not downright wipe out a unit. If you get lucky by killing a weakened unit that jumps them up to furious charge as well as the feel no pain and with the 5++ save or possibly an improved cover save if you had some terrain near the edge they may actually survive a turn to then pose a threat to the enemy next turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there one good thing about Mandrakes?   Is there one good thing about Mandrakes? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 22 2013, 19:00

@Mushkilla wrote:
3 Mandrakes- 45pts

Used to block: infiltrators, scout moves (Ravenwing, Daemon Dogs, anyone?).

That's about the best I could come up with.
Mandrake servo skulls OP.

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
I haven't tried this out yet (so please don't get mad if it sounds stupid o.o') but what about mandrakes+haemonculus+combat archon? Yes it becomes a fairly expensive unit, but you can outflank with them and because of the haemy you get their baleblast right out of outflank which if aimed well should hurt if not downright wipe out a unit. If you get lucky by killing a weakened unit that jumps them up to furious charge as well as the feel no pain and with the 5++ save or possibly an improved cover save if you had some terrain near the edge they may actually survive a turn to then pose a threat to the enemy next turn.
Well that just makes me mad.

One thing to keep in mind with this is that the unit can't infiltrate if you want to deploy it with characters. This is probably one of the ways to make the unit work but you should remember to grab a PGL on the Archon. I'm not sure this is the best unit option in the codex but this might be one of the better ways to run Mandrakes if you were set on running them.
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