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 Scourges... The Great Question

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Vespax
Slave
Vespax

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PostSubject: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 19 2013, 19:45

Hey guys,

So I recently inherited 5 unbuilt scourges from my brother since he caught wind I'm planning on starting a DE army (https://www.thedarkcity.net/t7287-shaa-dom-army-list).

Wondering if scourges can be worth the points value, and if so, how do you guys normally field your scourges? I think they'd be pretty fluffy with my army's theme, so I'm especially tempted by them. I've just heard from a number of sources to shy away from them as they're not as useful as their point value may indicate.

Thanks for your input,

Vespax
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Skulnbonz
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 19 2013, 20:04

5 scourges with 2 blasters (and no other upgrades whatsoever) are 10 points less than:

5 wyches, upgraded with a hekatrix (upgrade w/ venom blade), unit upgrade with hydra gauntlets, unit upgrade with haywire grenades, unit upgrade with a venom transport (upgrade with another splinter cannon)

One of these units can AT BEST take off 2 hull points from a vehicle. The other can take 6.
One is good in hand to hand, the other sucks.
I can go on and on, but in reality, the only unit that is worse in the entire book are mandrakes, and they are in the running for the worst unit in any codex this edition!

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 19 2013, 20:23

I've not actually used Scourges, but my impression is that, while not optimal, they ought to be viable. Compared to Warriors, they upgrade to Ghostplate armour, Shardcarbines, and jump packs - their points don't look out of line for all this.

The biggest problem I have with them is their special equipment - Splinter Cannons aside, most of their weapons options are anti-vehicle, which rather wastes all those poison shots. I suspect the best way to field them may just be for massed poison fire, but then we have so much of that anyway that they don't fill a needed function - you may as well just leave a couple of Venoms to do that job and spend your points on something more needed in your list.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 19 2013, 20:35

Haywire guns?
They are marginally less good than Ravagers pt for pt, and are a lot better slot wise.

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Archon_Demetrious
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 19 2013, 20:40

I have used scourges and I gotta say put them in a building and just fire away and if anything go to ground and get that 2+ cover Smile.. But yes usually it's 5 man scourges with 2x sc but I have recently using them with dl and I gotta say popping a vehicle each turn was useful.. Then their got charged killed 1 marine in overwatch and killed the serg in ccw and another marine and tied in combat for two turns.. They died due to losing ldshp by 1 rolled a 8 (sigh)

But also they won't b much help in a game less then 2k due to their point cost deff a fun unit if used properly
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jbwms713
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2013, 03:08

I agree with the above that they seem to suffer from paying a hefty premium for a boat-load of poison shots on the basic guy, while (typically) toting a couple of anti-tank weapons that you actually want to use.

I have considered running a dual Cannon squad, not because the army needs another boat-load of poison per se, but moreso because even a small unit becomes rather good at getting that ever-important first pain token. Their damage output is comparable to a full Raider squad at a fraction of the cost... and with FnP, they suddenly become surprisingly survivable, in terms of a DE unit.

It almost feels like Scourges and Trueborn were meant to be the same unit (at first read, I was really surprised trueborn didn't at least have access to ghostplate).... but of course a unit of 4 scourges with 4 blasters would just be too good for us -_-

-K-
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joe twocrows
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2013, 08:42

I have 17 models, and when I take them, usually take one unit of either 6 or ten. I have mixed results, which simply means I don't use them well. That said, I don't think they are as useless as some feel.

A five man squad with just splinter fire is useful for jumping around and putting a few wounds on anything on foot. Saves will reduce their effect, but they do put out more shots at 18" than the same cost warrior squad which is useful against orks. (15 shots vs 13). If you plan your unit movement to stay out of rapid fire range, the 12" move can make hash of a lot of otherwise irritating units. (fire warriors, I'm looking at you....)

A five man squad with two hw blasters won't kill vehicles, but will soften them for the lances, making the lances less unreliable. (see what I did?)

An expensive 10 man squad w/ 4 lances can bounce all around the table snapfiring the lances at ... everything, such as pesky fliers. Lance is wasted on AV 10/11, but penetrates easily. 4 lances have roughly a 1/3 chance of a pen against AV10/11 snapfiring. 4*1/6 * 1/2. Not too bad. The nice thing here is you still have 6 shardcarbines at full BS while jumping around. So, yes, you're always snapfiring the lances, but still have useful antinfantry when no vehicles are in range.

Slightly cheaper, haywire blasters are useless against fliers, being blast, quite useful against any ground/skimmer vehicle, as well as the poor children (those with a 4+ save or worse).

Likewise, heat lances coupled with the jump ability, means there's a good chance of neutralizing unexpected (read deepstriking) vehicles on short notice. Don't neglect the scourges ability to deepstrike.

All of these suffer (for me) from the one shot and you're out problem, but hey, we're DE and expect to die. Still careful awareness of where the jump puts you in relation to your opponents next more will keep them alive quite a while.

Just like all other DE units, scourges are situational and need to pick their fight. Shoot termys the same term your incubi assault. That way the mon-keigh can't shoot back, and because you may have dropped one, make the incubi's action more effective. For that matter, if you only have one or two left in the unit, assault before the incubi to draw snapfire away from the incubi. Ghostplate will survive a lot.

So. Play with them. Tease your opponent. Don't expect a lot, but 110/150 points for a 5 man unit buys a lot of frustration for your opponent.




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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2013, 11:42

Haywire blasters arent blast weapons.

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2013, 16:27

They sure aren't! But they are often overlooked and given a raw deal , imho. I ALWAYS include a unit of 5 with 2 HWB in every army I field. They have been absolute legends for me personally and I can think of at least 4 occasions where they've been game-winners too. Deep-striking them is good because unlike a lot of other anti-tank weapons, you don't need to get in close to maximize the damage output of the HWB. They are almost a guaranteed 2 HP stripped and as hasbeen said, that helps a lot to balance out any poor rolls with Lances on the vehicle damage chart. Also, don't forget, Codex rules always trump rulebook, so our DE HWB are actually theoretically capable of stripping up to 4 HP off armour 10, 2 from 6's to glance then 2 from the Haywire effect. I have actually done the triple to a CSM Hellbrute by deep-striking behind it, glorious. That same game, which was a scouring mission, they actually scored me the winning objective points, as well as occupying a squad of plague marines for three turns. I have posted a brief battle report, and a couple other things extolling the virtues of the scourges, on this forum. I hesitate to say this, but, Skulnbonz, there is another difference you failed to point out between the Wych squad and the Scourges; one you just run as fast at the enemy vehicle as you can then hope to survive a round of shooting and charge something else, the other actually takes a bit of thought and skill to use well and can remove those HP from range, get somewhere else and do it again, all at minimum risk to themselves if you play them correctly. Just because a particular unit is hard to master and maybe a bit less of a no-brainer than some others, doesn't make it worthless. After 25 years of playing this game, I like to think I can make any unit effective. I don't have any Reaver Jetbikes or Ravagers either, and do you suppose I lose every game I play? There are lots of different ways to skin a cat my friend, including influencing the cat to skin itself in blissful ignorance of what's happening to it until you're wearing it's skin as a rather nice, fancy new hat......
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Archon_Demetrious
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2013, 16:35

you can use both for the hwb... in the blook it says you instead use the haywire rule whwn rolling for a glancing or pen hit .. inwas thinking the same until read the hwb entry in our book... i know it been a while but it clearly states so
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 20 2013, 23:48

Um....are you agreeing with me or not? I'm not sure which. You seem to be saying exactly the same thing I just said but I'm not sure. I meant that, as it says in the Codex, you resolve the shot normally and then get an additional either glancing or penetrating hit.
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agosyb
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 21 2013, 01:34

I run a cheap allied jetseer alot, sometimes I run the full ten man unit with 4 haywire blasters and guide them. They usually kill a vehicle a turn and earn themselves pain tokens pretty easily, and the 4+ armor lets them stretch their threat range a little bit because they don't need cover against small arms fire to get their save. That unit costs over 250 points, though. I would avoid combat, if they're still alive after I've killed my opponents vehicles (and sacrificed the poor carbine redshirts) I usually just jump them to some far corner for line breaker or be general nuisances. That being said I wouldn't take this unit over jetbikes, nor in a game under 1850 points.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 21 2013, 01:40

I only take them over jetbikes because I don't have any! I don't have Wyches or any other Cult units either. My Archon has yet to enter into any mutually beneficial pacts with any Succubi, I'm afraid! I would feel like an ass if I randomly put in some Reavers without at least 2 other Cult units in my force. That's just my own way though.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 21 2013, 10:41

@Timatron wrote:
I would feel like an ass if I randomly put in some Reavers without at least 2 other Cult units in my force. That's just my own way though.

Reavers are not strictly cult units thought they do have affiliations with the cults (toroid arenas being situated above the wych ziggurats). I doubt reaver pilots have any existing loyalties other to themselves. I would be surprised if only cults had access to an air force. I take it you don't run any razorwings or void raven then (as they are piloted by reaver pilots)?

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agosyb
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 21 2013, 11:30

Yeah, reavers being a big part of the wych cult was more of a 3rd ed thing. Scourges are strictly mercenary, but then so are all dark eldar. I wouldn't stress over adding reavers without their other gladiator friends, they probably hate each other anyway :p silly deldar

More on topic, 5 scourges with 2 heat lances do pretty well trying to deep strike within 9" and vaporize vehicles. Heat lances are actually some seriously effective weapons. Unless I'm mistaken, they penetrate any armor value on average dice providing they hit first of course. That and thanks to the 18" range and ap1 they still count for effective anti-infantry weapons along with the carbines.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 21 2013, 13:38

Oh yeah Mush, I forgot about the Reaver/Razorwing connection! I actually have 2 'wings! I might decide to introduce some at some point; at least I'll know what to do with them, given I've studied lots of batreps by your good self and others. Agosyb, I like to think of my Scourges being those who represent a 'tithe' of protectors who decide to defend the Haemonculus who created them to ensure he can continue to do his good work! I disagree about the Heatlances though, they're too pricey to use as a suicide unit I feel.
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Vespax
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges... The Great Question   Scourges... The Great Question I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 21 2013, 15:49

Thanks for all the input guys! Though I think everyone has their own (and varied!) opinion on Scourges, I'm starting to get the idea. Not sure if they'll fit into my list for a while. I tend to shy away from high point "suicide units" (and by that I mean you HOPE they don't die on the second turn they're in play, but they PROBABLY will...), mostly because I used to run an Ordo Xenos Deathwatch army with a combi-melta Sternguard squad in a drop pod and they broke my heart on a number of occasions. They would always come down and very very reliably pop that annoying tank I wanted to kill, but the next turn it seemed like they would always keel over. Oh well. No more MEQ for me...

I'll probably work on incorporating Scourges into an 1,800 point or 2,000 point list rather than try to squeeze them into my 1,250 point or even the first expansion of that out to 1,500. Seems too tight at those low point value games.

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