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Fletch
Sorrowshard
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Sorrowshard
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Sorrowshard


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PostSubject: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 01 2011, 18:38

So I am getting a ticket for the Autumn throne tourney at HQ, partly because I want nice outing with a bunch of mates and also because it is long past time I went to a tourney.

I have already made the conscious decision not to take the most min-maxed spammy list possible, my reasons for this are multiple and complicated. let's just go with the fact that I want to build a good list that brings the tools I will need whilst soothing the the non WAAC and aesthetically sensitive side of my personality.....

DE are the supervillian army, subsequently It feels wrong without a figurehead for my force, I want an archon but he just is not very good, I keep building lists with him in but by the end he gets cut out as he costs too much for too little output, now i know what I said above means I should just bite the bullet and stick him in, the problem is that there are several other reasons not to put him in.... I'll return to this in a bit.

another unit I want at least one of is the razorwing, im struggling with the 45 point increase and the loss of one long ranged mobile lance, coupled with the fact you almost always need to start it in reserve and then my early tank suppression is down by three lances from the get-go.

I was also looking at six Incubi, everyone loves them models and I'm not immune either, however six (the optimal number IMO) in a raider is 200 points, they are also the only logical place for our points inefficient and frankly underwhelming friend the archon, suddenly we have 300 points or more in one tinfoil transport that is essentially useless if you hit a GK army (I imagine they will be rife) It also makes very easy target priority for your opponent, Its simply not that smart, in fact it's such a liability I'm struggling to make myself put it in , the other problem is that with 8 models representing a fifth of the army \it's hard to shore up everything else you need elsewhere.

Also the incubi eat my scoring element, whilst wyches don't hit as hard they also do not auto
suck-and-die to GK, they can be very useful vs tank walls, cost less and score....

I only seem to be able to build the pseudo fluffy army that will actually work around the 2k level, tbh I have been saying for a while 2k is the sweet spot for DE.

So heres the list of stuff that has to go in .

Archon

Incubi

2 units of 6 reavers with heat lances

a reasonable amount of scoring presence

at least 4 venoms (but not only venoms as transports)

Enough lances to actually do something

Razorwing

I simply cannot produce a list I am content with, I feel like including incubi and an archon is auto-loose vs GK aswell not just beckause the unit /character will suckfail but that the imbalance caused in the rest of my army to find the points won't allow me to pick up their slack.

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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 01 2011, 19:41

Lets take a shot, but i think this might be better served by taking it to the Army List subforum.

Archon - Agoniser, Shadowfield and Ghostplate.
Haemonculus - Liguifier gun, Shattershard and Venomblade.

Incubi (6)- DL Raider
TB (3) - 2xDL w/Venom 2xSC
TB (3) - 2xDL w/Venom 2xSC

Wyches (8} - Hek w/Agoniser, w/DL Raider
Wyches (8} - Hek w/Agoniser, w/DL Raider
Wracks (5) - Liquifier gun w/Venom 2xSC
Wracks (5) - Liquifier gun w/Venom 2xSC

Reavers (6) - 2xHL
Reavers (6) - 2xHL

Ravager - 3xDL, FF
Ravager - 3xDL, FF
Razorwing - 2xDL, 4MONO, FF

TOTAL 1981 (you have 19pts to play with, i.e. FF on the Incubi Raider, SC for the RW, HW for a unit of Wyches, etc.)

I tried to work in everything you wanted granted it's a tourney so should be an "all-comers" approach but heavily favoring GKs.

The Incubi with Archon, I believe adding in a Haemonculus gives you better utility, while FNP doesn't help against GK's CCWs it does against prolonged combats with larger non-PW wielding units or if exposed to small arms fire. In addition his Shattershard is great against units like Paladins, etc. template with a 33% chance of auto-killing even the best protected amoung them. I didn't give the Archon the Grenade Launcher, against lesser opponents thier 3+/4+ FNP should hold them over if you assualt into cover and agasint GKs it wouldn't matter since they should be armed with Halberds (I6 if smart). No FF for the Raider it should be moving for a 4+.

The TB units while small, treat as DL pill boxes setting them up in cover not embarked. This also fullfills your requirement that all your Venoms not be tethered transports as well as giving you cheap access to 4 more DLs.

The Haem now allows Wracks to be troop, increasing your scoring units and giving you the access to the additional 2 venoms you want. Starting with FNP and a LG in the unit gives you the option to objective sit or go offensive.

The Wyches can help support the heavy lifting, picking on troops or holding up elites. Their Raider provides the mobility and an additional DL. Again no Flicker field as it should be either moving for a 4+ or empty and your opponent should have other targets of priority.

Reavers, you wanted them so you got them.

Ravagers with dark lances and flickerfield, pretty self explanatory, you wanted lots of DLs.

Razorwing, again you wanted it. 2 DLs (you asked for DLs) and kept the Monoscythes since the points just were not there for the upgrade and I feel they have the best all around appeal. Throw in a Flickerfield to help keep your investment safe.

So you have your.....

Archon
Incubi
15 Dark Lances
4 Scoring Units
Reavers
Razowing



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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 01 2011, 20:28

I think Fletch has about hit it.

With the restrictions you have listed, you don't leave a lot of options. I think there are some things that could make this much more potent.

Expensive units are the reavers.

My thoughts are to drop the wargear on the Haemi except the liquifier gun.

go with 5 incubi.

blasters on the trueborn,

You then may have enough points to add in an additional unit of warriors on foot.

The other option is to drop the wracks and get naked warriors or 5 man warriors with a shredder.

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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 01 2011, 21:21

Whoops, perhaps I was not clear , It's 1750 .... if it was 2k I would be all over it.

Great response btw Fletch many thanks for effort you put in.

ALso I dislike wracks, I only like the liquefier gun, being forced to buy five to get it is a bit annoying, five is not really enogh to be effectual in cc so they tend to get left out in favour of warriors + blaster in venom.

Also again my bad for not being super clear , when I said lances I meant any lance wep (except pistols) I tend to prefer blasters on Tborns as they can move and fire also you get three for less than the price of two, no contest really.

It's the 1750 level thats causing headaches, I can do horrible min-maxed vanom spam easy enough but I want a more fulfilling and dynamic experience , not to mention painting the same models over and over is cruel and unusual torture for me.

I have written and re written the list over and over this week and I'm starting to think it's just not possible.

I gave ya a pain point fletch Very Happy

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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 01 2011, 21:30

Thanks. I'll give the 1750 a go when I get more free time.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 05 2011, 12:31

Well, you can make some modifications to this list, its what I am using in my next 1750 turney. (not 100% finished but still)

Heamonculus w/ Shatterhard and CoM

4x Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster in Venom w/SC
4x Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster in Venom w/SC
4x Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster in Venom w/SC

5x Warriors w/ Blaster in Venom w/SC
5x Warriors w/ Blaster in Venom w/SC
5x Warriors w/ Blaster in Venom w/SC
5x Warriors w/ Blaster in Venom w/SC
5x Warriors w/ Blaster in Venom w/SC
9x Wyches w/ Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywire Granadez in Venom

Ravenger w/FF
Ravenger w/FF
Ravenger w/FF


Can drop 2 truborn, ravanger and heamonculus and put in incubis, archon and razorwing if thats what you want

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PostSubject: Re: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 05 2011, 14:02

Several things:

1. Incubi are a tough inclusion at <2000 pts. But have you thought of running 4 in a venom with a Archon. This unit is more than capable of doing the same amount of damage as 6 with without an archon in a raider but has a smaller footprint, and cost less pts. Your archon will most likely be equivalent to 2 incubi in damage output, but now you have a multi-wound model with 2++ save in case your venom is downed early and you need to huff it.

2. At 1750 you also have to realize that your opponent will most likely be packing less tanks than normal. The absence of 3 x DL first turn should not be that much of an issue. Add to this the fact that your fast, and should be equiping your skimmers with FF/NS to avoid first turn downings and you should be ok with only having 6 x DL. Add to this the fact that by the time the razorwing does come in your opponents AT should be reduced, making it much easier to keep distance from whats left, while unloading your deadly payload of missiles on units kicked out of transports (a lot of units hug transports as well, so shoot the tank, and position the blasts to hit the units Very Happy)

3. Adding 2/3 units of 3 Trueborn with blasters in venoms is another way to include some necessary dark light weapons. 3 will keep your cost low, still be effective (as effective as a ravager) and will make up for AT lost with 2 DL instead of 3.

4. With 3 blaster venoms, 2 ravagers and a razorwing I really don't feel that you NEED the bikes. I mean I love bikes, but with that much AT, heat lance bikes are over kill, and are more likely to just supply free kills while your opponent makes his way into range of your other AT. I would instead buff up your army with additional wych squads and/or warrior venoms.

5. Finally, if Incubi are too expensive, there is no reason not to run your Archon with wyches. There is no need for him to pack his grenade launcher, he will add much needed power weapon attacks, and the unit will be much cheaper. Upgrading it with some nets will also reduce the number of attacks targeting your archon, and should keep him alive longer. I would also attempt to get a haemunculus attached to this unit to transfer the FnP, and possibly an agonizer as well. This unit should not only hold up MEQs but should win also.

I am actually playing a 1.5k tournament in 2 weeks, and have been writing up lists. I will post what I would consider a 1.5k pt competitive list later tonight, but hopefully some of this helps.
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PostSubject: Re: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 05 2011, 16:20

Sorrowshard, I too am intending to go to the Throne of Skulls in October. Can't wait in fact!

Of course I haven't even glued my guys yet... but I am fairly confident I can get them all ready in time.

My list sounds similar to yours (I'm not after a WAAC list either, just some fun games against hopefully fun opponents).

Archon
Incubi in Raider
Blasterborn in Venom
Blasterborn in Venom
Wyches in Raider
Wyches in Raider
Blaster Warriors in Venom
Blaster Warriors in Venom
3x Ravagers

Hopefully it'll be fast, fun and look good. The last ToS I went to in the Spring had very few DE players that I could see which was a shame. In fact the Vanguard tourney I did the other weekend only had one of them (and plenty of Grey Knights bandwagoners Rolling Eyes ). I quite like that about the Dark Eldar. Most people agree it is the most balanced/best Codex, but hardly anyone plays it. I put it down to the lack of cheese!

Anyway, that is my list for the tourney. Would be good to see you at ToS so we can cackle maniacally and plot the downfall of everyone there!! ...before going 0-5 because we fight nothing but IGuard and GKnights! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 06 2011, 21:04

I don't know where u get the opinion the archon is not a good choice. IMO he is one of the best cc models in the game.

On both my 1500 and 1750 lists I run this

Archon, ghostplate clone field combat drugs and agonizer and ww portal
8 bloodbrides w/ 3 shardnets
Syren w/ agonizer
Raider w/ff

With the clone field and shardnets the archon pretty much never dies
And this unit has never failed to survive to the end of my games. Usually with multiple disembarks and many units killed.
U can drop the ww portal(I play a ww army) but even gk have trouble with this unit with all the shardnets,4++ and clonefeild

But yah the archon does NOT suck. I only wish succubi could take ww portals

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PostSubject: Re: My Current Dilemma    My Current Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 07 2011, 03:20

I will also be attending this event, got my ticket today. Looks like there will be a few of us going to this, hopefully meet you all there.

You can see my list here http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t583-kenny3760-goes-to-war

unfortunately it's probably not of much use to you as it's a fairly typical Baron/Hellions/venom spam list. Still it works and with a bit of practice I'll figure out a way round the GK's as well.
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