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 Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?

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Bibitybopitybacon
Dark_Kindred
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 15 2013, 22:44

Just used this list recently:

Baron Sathonyx

3 Trueborn - 3x Blasters; Venom - Splinter Cannon

5 Warriors - Blaster; Venom - Splinter Cannon
5 Warriors - Blaster; Venom - Splinter Cannon

9 Hellions

Ravager - 3x Dark Lance

750pts exactly

One of my opponents seemed very displeased with me using 4 vehicles at 750 (it was a 2v2 and each other player had just one vehicle). However, considering how fragile DE are, it feels like I have little choice.

So, am I'm being harsh by using 4 vehicles at 750pts?
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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 00:34

No. I bring 3 at 500 and that could be construed as "less than optimal." You're doing him a favor by bringing Hellions. You could have done something like this:

Haemonculus

5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster in Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons
5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster in Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons
5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster in Raider w/ Dark Lance or Disintegrater Cannon
5 Kabalite Warriors with Blaster in Raider w/ Dark Lance or Disintegrater Cannon

Ravager
Ravager

That has 2(4) more lances, 1 more Troop, two more vehicles, and can target more vehicle and infantry units during the shooting phase.

To reiterate: No, you're not being harsh. The army is clearly designed to be mechanized. Even then, STR 4 weapons are a threat so your opponents should just accept that.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 03:38

Yeah... what dark kindred said. With the death of the webway portal list 4 vehicles at 750 is very conservative for any de list. You. Would always go with three talos and a couple wrack blobs with liquifier guns hoofing it but that would probably tick him off more. Lol
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 08:31

Too many vehicles in a DE list? Never. Compare your to Dark_Kindreds list and notice that yours wasn't that over the top at all.

And besides opponents who start to shoot uor vehicles always become happy because they are so easy to explode. Very Happy

And you should change trueborns to another Kabalite squad in your own list.

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 10:49

I don't think that's too many at all.

Bringing a lot of high AV tanks may skew balance, if your opponents aren't geared for it, but since our vehicles can be shot down by bolters (as already pointed out) it shouldn't be something that your opponent is unequipped to deal with.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 11:18

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

4 vehicles didn't seem too bad to me - especially considering the low AV and hull points on 3 of them. But then, my opponent really hates Splinter Cannons on venoms and thinks they're incredibly unfair.

Vasara wrote:

And besides opponents who start to shoot uor vehicles always become happy because they are so easy to explode. Very Happy

The person who constantly complained about them actually destroyed one of my venoms on the first turn with ~7 bolter shots, despite it having 3+ cover (behind ruins and night fight). He still moaned throughout the entire game about how unfair they are. Rolling Eyes 

Vasara wrote:
And you should change trueborns to another Kabalite squad in your own list.

Can I ask why?

My concern is that, if the Ravager dies, I'd have very little anti-vehicle. Relying on single blasters in warrior squads seems a bit dicey.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 13:03

Not even a little bit.
Its not like you took three demolishers,

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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 17:03

The Shredder wrote:
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

4 vehicles didn't seem too bad to me - especially considering the low AV and hull points on 3 of them. But then, my opponent really hates Splinter Cannons on venoms and thinks they're incredibly unfair.

Ah, the "It's unfair because I don't have/understand it" argument. Maybe you should do some math for him. A Venom should kill 1.33 Marines on average, 2 Fire Warriors, or 4 Guardsmen [no cover]. Running the numbers against a Boltgun, 12 Boltgun shots will kill 2.66 Fire Warriors and 5.33 Guardsmen [no cover] in addition to being able to hurt vehicles.

If your opponent is still miffed about Venoms, you could get your local Mechanized Craftworld Eldar friend to take something like this:

Farseer 100
10 Guardian Defenders in Wave Serpent w/ Bright Lance 210
10 Guardian Defenders in Wave Serpent w/ Bright Lance & Shuriken Cannon  220
10 Guardian Defenders in Wave Serpent w/ Bright Lance & Shuriken Cannon  220

Clearly, there are bigger problems than a halfhearted Venom Spam.

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Last edited by Dark_Kindred on Tue Jul 16 2013, 18:53; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : and is NOT or)
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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 18:05

The Shredder wrote:
But then, my opponent really hates Splinter Cannons on venoms and thinks they're incredibly unfair.
The person who constantly complained about them actually destroyed one of my venoms on the first turn with ~7 bolter shots, despite it having 3+ cover (behind ruins and night fight). He still moaned throughout the entire game about how unfair they are. Rolling Eyes 

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that this opponent moans and whines a lot? Razz  SM players generally freak out and overreact to Venoms due to the high volume of fire (potential damgae) while tending to overlook ACTUAL damage output (1.33 dead SM's per turn from 12 shots). Remind this player that EVERY WEAPON IN THEIR ARMY CAN REMOVE HULL POINTS FROM YOUR 2 HP TRANSPORTS THAT AVERAGE 1.33 DEAD SM's PER TURN. Razz 

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 18:51

Evil Space Elves wrote:
I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that this opponent moans and whines a lot? Razz 

Oh my yes.

Anything and everything that damages his army in the slightest is unbalanced.

Also, if he loses, it is only ever because the dice screwed him over. Tactical mistakes or bad army lists do not factor into it.
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Dark_Kindred
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 19:03

The Shredder wrote:
Evil Space Elves wrote:
I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that this opponent moans and whines a lot? Razz 

Oh my yes.

Anything and everything that damages his army in the slightest is unbalanced.

Also, if he loses, it is only ever because the dice screwed him over. Tactical mistakes or bad army lists do not factor into it.

That raises several questions.

1. Why did you even ask if your army was harsh if this person is a whiny tool?
2. What does such a player do when losing against a similar army?
3. What about the other opponent? You implied that he also looked annoyed.
4. Did you win?
5. Other questions.

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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 16 2013, 22:27

Dark_Kindred wrote:
That raises several questions.

1. Why did you even ask if your army was harsh if this person is a whiny tool?
2. What does such a player do when losing against a similar army?
3. What about the other opponent? You implied that he also looked annoyed.
4. Did you win?
5. Other questions.

1) Well, the fact that he complains about a lot of things doesn't necessarily mean that all his complaints are invalid.

Considering that every other player brought just one vehicle, I wondered if he had a point. In any case, it wasn't something I'd really considered and thought it was an interesting question.

2) Do you mean a similar army to his own? As far as I can recall, we haven't had such a matchup. For the most part, we all have different armies, so we rarely face our own army.

3) If I implied that, then it was unintentional. He didn't complain about anything and accepted his losses with good grace.

4) Yes - we annihilated them on turn 5, having taken relatively few losses ourselves (I'd lost the baron's squad but not the baron, the ravager and a venom; my ally had lost several CSMs, and taken a wound on his lord, and that was about it.).
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PostSubject: Re: Is this too many vehicles for 750pts?   Is this too many vehicles for 750pts? I_icon_minitime

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