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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 14:42

A couple of related questions:

1) What are peoples' opinions on Splinter Racks? I've been taking them, but I find my raiders rarely survive long enough to allow their occupants to make use of the racks for more than 1 turn of shooting (if that). Has anyone had better luck and got their points' worth out of this upgrade?

2) I'm interested to know whether people, when moving into the midfield, dismount their (non-combat) troops early or keep them in their vehicles for as long as possible?

Basically, partially because of splinter racks, I tend to keep my warriors in their raiders until they're forcibly-dismounted by the destruction of their transport. However, considering that they lose a good chunk of the squad every time that happen, I wondered if it would be better to dismount them early. Obviously this could result in them getting shot directly, but I was wondering if this would still be better than my opponent destroying their transport and killing several warriors as a 'bonus'.

Any thoughts?
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Archon_Demetrious
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 15:44

It all depends on who you shooting at and how many wounds you do. I something hit all 10 times but only wound 3 times. Other times hit 8 times I wound 7 times, plus I like staying 24in away so night shields can be in affect for at least two rounds. Also one thing about our codex is it's affectiveness of multiple units.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 16:40

The trick with warrior raiders, is to only have your warriors embark on the raider when they really need too. You want your warriors spending as little time in that raider death trap as possible. It's also a good idea not to make a raider more expensive than it needs to be, they are fine without upgrades. When you realise they are going to be empty most of the game it make it a lot apparent that it's not worth spending extra points on them.

Area terrain also makes your warriors a real pain to deal with as they can go to ground for a 3+ cover save and still put out some decent snapshot fire thanks to their splinter cannon. Also an empty raider more often than not gets ignored, meaning It's far more likely to be around late game, giving you more mobility on turn 4+ when it really matters.

Warriors in area terrain with an empty raider near by are deceptively mobile. They can redeploy to an objective that is between 49-59" away in two turns (T4: 2d6 pick the highest + 2" embark range + 12" raider move + 18" flat out + T5: 6" raider move + 6" disembark + 1d6 re-rollable fleet run + 3" objective capture range). Perfect for capturing objectives in the late game.

When you consider the above I find splinter racks, flicker fields and even night shields to be a bit of a trap on raiders, as they are not cheap and encourage your warriors to stay in their raiders. This reduces your target saturation and lets your opponent kill two birds with one stone (suddenly not only is that autocannon destroying your raider but it's also killing 5-6 warriors).

Here's an example of this style of play:

BR26: The Black Buzzards VS Eldar Mech - 1500pts

Hope that helps. Smile

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 16:56

@Mushkilla wrote:
The trick with warrior raiders, is to only have your warriors embark on the raider when they really need too. You want your warriors spending as little time in that raider death trap as possible. It's also a good idea not to make a raider more expensive than it needs to be, they are fine without upgrades. When you realise they are going to be empty most of the game it make it a lot apparent that it's not worth spending extra points on them.

Area terrain also makes your warriors a real pain to deal with as they can go to ground for a 3+ cover save and still put out some decent snapshot fire thanks to their splinter cannon. Also an empty raider more often than not gets ignored, meaning It's far more likely to be around late game, giving you more mobility on turn 4+ when it really matters.

Warriors in area terrain with an empty raider near by are deceptively mobile. They can redeploy to an objective that is between 49-59" away in two turns (T4: 2d6 pick the highest + 2" embark range + 12" raider move + 18" flat out + T5: 6" raider move + 6" disembark + 1d6 re-rollable fleet run + 3" objective capture range). Perfect for capturing objectives in the late game.

When you consider the above I find splinter racks, flicker fields and even night shields to be a bit of a trap on raiders, as they are not cheap and encourage your warriors to stay in their raiders. This reduces your target saturation and lets your opponent kill two birds with one stone (suddenly not only is that autocannon destroying your raider but it's also killing 5-6 warriors).

Here's an example of this style of play:

BR26: The Black Buzzards VS Eldar Mech - 1500pts

Hope that helps. Smile

Thanks for that insightful reply.

Mostly, I've been staying in my vehicles as long as possible. However, I definitely see what you mean - next time, I'll try and get my troops out of their raiders and into area terrain as soon as possible (and embark later if I need the mobility).

@Mushkilla wrote:

When you consider the above I find splinter racks, flicker fields and even night shields to be a bit of a trap on raiders, as they are not cheap and encourage your warriors to stay in their raiders. This reduces your target saturation and lets your opponent kill two birds with one stone (suddenly not only is that autocannon destroying your raider but it's also killing 5-6 warriors).

Generally, I only ever buy one upgrade on a raider (usually Splinter Racks), though in future I might try running them naked. As you say, there's not much point investing heavily in such fragile vehicles.

One question though; what are your thoughts about upgrades for Venoms - and, in particular, Night Shields? Usually, I just stick an extra Splinter Cannon on them and call it a day, but I was wondering if Night Shields may be worth considering as well?
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Archon_Demetrious
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 19:04

One thing about night shields are that now in 6th Ed double tap is 9in not 6in anymore some food for thought
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 19:05

@Archon_Demetrious wrote:
One thing about night shields are that now in 6th Ed double tap is 9in not 6in anymore some food for thought

I fear I don't understand what you mean by this.
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Archon_Demetrious
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 19:13

Rapid fire I'm sorry .. In 6th Ed rapid fire range is half the weapons range and night shields reduces this to 18in. in order for the opponent to rapid fire they need to be 9in unlike in 5th Ed that rapid fire range was 12in but night shields reduced it to 6in.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 19:20

@Archon_Demetrious wrote:
Rapid fire I'm sorry .. In 6th Ed rapid fire range is half the weapons range and night shields reduces this to 18in. in order to rapid fire they need to be 9in unlike in 5th Ed that rapid fire range was 12in but night shields reduced it to 6in.

Ah, so Night Shields don't reduce rapid-fire range any more. That's... disappointing. Neutral 
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Archon_Demetrious
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 19:23

It's does but to 9in instead to 6in due to the wording of the rapid fire rule
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 21:47

Damn, I was giving every raider and venom flicker and night and I am currently running DE mech (240 points on upgrades) and winning most games for a month now.  Ill try without upgrades and take them out of the raiders as soon as possible (in a safe place).

EDIT: What do you guys think about the upgrades for ravagers and the flyers?
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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 04 2013, 23:23

@shadowseercB wrote:
Damn, I was giving every raider and venom flicker and night and I am currently running DE mech (240 points on upgrades) and winning most games for a month now.  Ill try without upgrades and take them out of the raiders as soon as possible (in a safe place).

EDIT: What do you guys think about the upgrades for ravagers and the flyers?

I think a FF on a flyer is a very good upgrade. I don't put a flyer in my list without that upgrade. An evading Flyer is wasting precious time it could be shooting at full BS. I don't think NS are worth it.

As for Ravagers, I've always run mine bare but I think I might consider NS on them at some point. How to people find NS work on Ravagers in their lists?
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 00:48

Personally each of those upgrades mostly come in handy. I surprisingly make most of my saves but never make wounds, go figure Sad. I think a major factor against me was the fact that I dont dismount the warriors as often as I should and I only take 5 per Raider rather than 10. Taking 10 will allow me the option of using a Dark Lance or Splinter Cannon so I think I will go back to doing that more than likely using the Splinter Cannon.

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bklooste
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 02:59

@Mushkilla wrote:
The trick with warrior raiders, is to only have your warriors embark on the raider when they really need too.

Yep racks are a trap ..

Regarding upgrades , if your going to get close eg Raiders with Assault groups dont get night shields.. Good for Ravengers and splinter borne but not crucial unless you have very few targets. Never get Flicker shields , not worth it .. Venoms get them for free though.

Grissly totems , on one vehicle can be worth it.
Eather Sails on an assault group can be good.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 10:49

In TAC list I don't usually use any upgrades (except ff on Razorwing). My Venomspam list with Ravagers is all equiped with NS, but list is Tailored to another tournament type and definietly not a good (or even average) TAC list.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 13:43

I love splinter racks, particularly since I can roll very erratically sometimes. That being said, I use the Duke to give my raiders deep strike, so a) don't need to worry about being shot before i can shoot, and b) am usually in rapid fire range, which with two of them (plus potentially the Duke's splinterborn weighing in as well) means I can really gang up on a portion of my opponent's army very effectively. I also don't take cannons in the warrior units, to save points for other stuff (I'm sure I could mathammer it about, but gut instinct tells me it's about half a wound difference).

Assuming I'm really ganging up and within rapid fire range, but have moved (for the purposes of splinterborn cannons)
68 shots, 40 of them with rerolls to hit gives me 30 wounds to play with, not counting lance and dissie shots from my raiders and supporting ravagers. Combine that with our movement to really pick on one part of the opposition and I'm happy enough

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 13:52

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I love splinter racks, particularly since I can roll very erratically sometimes. That being said, I use the Duke to give my raiders deep strike, so a) don't need to worry about being shot before i can shoot

If you stay in your transport when deep-striking the embarked unit can only snap shot (as the transport moved at cruising speed). If you disembark the warriors though, they can fire at full BS. Disembarking and firing at BS4 will do more damage than staying embarked and firing at BS1 with re-rolls to hit. Also by disembarking you get an extra 6" range meaning you are more likely to get those warriors within rapid fire range.

On another not it's a shame retrofire jets don't let us disembark when we deepstrike (at least the duke does). Sad

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Archon_Demetrious
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 19:26

Wow I never realized we can deepstrike and disembark from our raiders (no retrofits jets) and still fire at feel BS ummm... Time to think nw lol
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Elazar The Glorified
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 19:57

How does that work? If you deep strike you count as moving at cruising speed and so can't disembark. Am I missing something as would love to be doing this?! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 20:21

It's because you're mixing up rules.

There is no rule about being unable to disembark from a DSing transport due to moving at cruising speed.
There *is* a rule that DSing vehicles using Retrofire(Screaming) Jets can not disembark
The normal rule is a unit DSing in from a transport may disembark, but do no other move action.
Retrofire does not allow that.
The Duke grants DS to vehicles - not Retrofire Jets.

Make sense?

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Elazar The Glorified
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 20:41

Class thanks for clearing that up one of those instances where I've assumed something in the rules and been nerfing myself! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 21:15

Disembarking warriors is not something I've ever considered but I'm going to give that a try.. To save me looking must the unit be embarked in deployment.?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 21:21

How would that even work if you wanted them to come in together and they weren't embarked?

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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 21:30

I think a lot of upgrades depend upon your army composition. I usually say stay on your transports for as long as possible - but don't misunderstand me, often this may mean dismounting T1, or even deploying out of the transport because it's too dangerous to do otherwise. But sometimes, you have enough target saturation (like a bunch of venoms & ravagers) to justify having a squad of warriors staying put and taking advantage of splinter racks.

But I have to say that in most cases the splinter racks are going to go to waste. I see our warriors as doing well when they survive a game, and leave other units do the damage. Sure, sometimes they splatter a MC or knock out a flyer with a blaster, but mostly they want to be keeping their heads down and hoping they don't get noticed.

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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 05 2013, 21:35

I just meant can you deploy the warriors seperate from their dedicated Raider in your deployment phase. Never done it before.. After consulting the rule book, yes.
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PostSubject: Re: Splinter Racks and related questions   Splinter Racks and related questions I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 06 2013, 00:09

If you're going second it's practically mandatory to deploy them outside their Raiders if you want them to live past Turn 1. Objective placement is really important to make sure they have options to reach an objective by the end of the game whether they are on foot or in the Raider.
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