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 Champions and special weapons?

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Tiri Rana
Sybarite
Tiri Rana

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Join date : 2011-06-16
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PostSubject: Champions and special weapons?   Champions and special weapons? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 02:49

I know it's a very long post, but please read through the lot, and don't skimm over it.


To be true: When I started to argue, I wanted to say of course champions can not take special weapons, since they have a different profile and/or name, but when I started to look it up, I found page 47 in the BRB, wich states the difference between independent and upgrade characters.
"• Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from
the start of the game, representing a squad leader or
unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran
Sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own
and are effectively just another trooper in their unit,
with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider
selection of weapons and wargear choices."
I read this part as: an upgraded character is not special, but just a variation of a basic trooper and changed my mind.
So a space marine sergeant is still a space marine and, an acothyst is still a wrack and a reaver champion is still a reaver. Then it all depends on the unit entry.
Lets take Tactical squads, for example:
If the squad numbers ten models one space marine may swap their Boltgun for a Meltagun. So as the SM Sergeant is a space marine he can take the meltagun and loose his boltgun. But then he can't swap it for something else.

In my opinion it is absolutely legal and possible, as long as the champion qualifies. If for example an imperial guardsman may exchange his lasgun with a meltagun and the sergeant has no lasgun, but a laspistol he can't take the meltagun.

So why is it sparsely used and/or uncommon.
1st: I think GW's typical champion outfit has something to do with it. Most codices force your champion to change his normal gun with a pistol and ccw and even if the codex doesn't force you to, most pictures and examples show them having this outfit.

2nd: Most cideces force you to take different weapons for your champions, wich disqualifies him for most special options, like IG.

3rd: Most champions have better options. For example, a Hekatrix may take a wych weapon, especially because the entry says model and not wych, but who would take a Hekatrix and fit her with a shardnet instead of an agoniser?

So condensed most people don't even think about taking special weapons with a champion, because GW got this picture of pistol and ccw so etched on our memories we can't think of them without. (I had to look it up, because I was sure it was different, but our dracons keep their splinter rifle and the pistol+ccw combi is just optional) And for those who think about it most codices don't allow it, because the champion looses the weapon he needs to swap. Or their champions have better options, than taking a special weapon, any other trooper could take.

We however have champions, that may take weapons, that are of no use to them, like the solarite or the Dracon. Additionally we have champions that may take weapons on top of special weapons instead of swapping, like Reaver champion or Acothyst.


And on top of all that: Look at the trueborn entry.
It allows every trueborn to swap his splinter rifle with pistol and ccw. The dracon does, like with normal warriors don't get them by default, but may change his ccw and/or pistol, how could he exchange them, if he couldn't take them at first?
He is a trueborn and so may like all other trueborns exchange his splinter rifle with pistol and ccw and these he may exchange further, because he is a dracon, too.
And if he can take pistol and ccw, he can, of course, take a Blaster or a Splinter cannon instead.

And the entry lists a composition of 3-10 trueborn, so if a dracon was no trueborn, he could not be part of the unit, since it may not contain non-trueborns.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Champions and special weapons?   Champions and special weapons? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 04:01

Starting from end:
Unit size is unit size in MODELS. If that would not be true, then certain units could NOT be fielded. Ever (like... oh, 'ard Boyz! You can't field " 'ard Boyz", only "Boyz".).
It does not say "take up to 10 Tactical marines, NOT including Sgt" it say "x-10 Tactical Marines" which mean x-10 members. There are certain units that does not follow that or some reason (like Court, You must take at least 1 of each "type" of members and different maximum number of them, try to fit that in "x-x Court" one liner) but those are rare exception.

Now, in option "labels" there are specified models that can take certain upgrades. If it says "any member may take", then any member may take it. If it says "all members may take", then all/none may take it. If it says "XXXX can take YYYY", then XXXX can take YYYY.

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Kinnay
Wych
Kinnay

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Join date : 2011-06-06
Location : Hamburg, Germany

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PostSubject: Re: Champions and special weapons?   Champions and special weapons? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 04:42

/\ Exactly this.

I have written it in the other thread and will write it again:
If it says 'every/any model may take XYZ' then, indeed, the unit champions may take it as well.
If, however, the name of the basic trooper is included in the sentence, then the champions may not take it. They have an own entry describing what they're allowed to take, mind you. If a Sybarite could take a Blaster, it would be listed in the little list of things he may take for himself.

In the Dark Eldar Codex only Harlequins, Wyches and Bloodbrides use the formulation 'any model', so a Troup Master with Fusion Pistol, a Syren with Shardnets, or a Hekatrix with Hydra Gauntlets (just to name some examples), are perfectly possible.
The rest, I believe, is not.

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Tiri Rana
Sybarite
Tiri Rana

Posts : 441
Join date : 2011-06-16
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PostSubject: Re: Champions and special weapons?   Champions and special weapons? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 12:02

Ok, I know it's uncommon, but I have to admit I was a little bit drunk and tired last night. This morning I read my own post and double-checked everything in the english codex and BRB, and now I'll rip my own post apart.


@Tiri Rana wrote:
I know it's a very long post, but please read through the lot, and don't skimm over it.


To be true: When I started to argue, I wanted to say of course champions can not take special weapons, since they have a different profile and/or name, but when I started to look it up, I found page 47 in the BRB, wich states the difference between independent and upgrade characters.
"• Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from
the start of the game, representing a squad leader or
unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran
Sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own
and are effectively just another trooper in their unit,
with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider
selection of weapons and wargear choices."
I read this part as: an upgraded character is not special, but just a variation of a basic trooper and changed my mind.
This paragraph is the intruduction to the IC-chapter. It just tells us that upgrade characters are characters, but not IC's and can't claim the following rules.
@Tiri Rana wrote:

So a space marine sergeant is still a space marine and, an acothyst is still a wrack and a reaver champion is still a reaver. Then it all depends on the unit entry.
Lets take Tactical squads, for example:
If the squad numbers ten models one space marine may swap their Boltgun for a Meltagun. So as the SM Sergeant is a space marine he can take the meltagun and loose his boltgun. But then he can't swap it for something else.

In my opinion it is absolutely legal and possible, as long as the champion qualifies. If for example an imperial guardsman may exchange his lasgun with a meltagun and the sergeant has no lasgun, but a laspistol he can't take the meltagun.
As said above, this is not true, since the paragraph on page 47 just tells us, that upgrade characters are no IC's, it nevers says, that they count as unupgraded. The normal trooper contradicts the independent part and not the upgrade part.
@Tiri Rana wrote:

So why is it sparsely used and/or uncommon.
1st: I think GW's typical champion outfit has something to do with it. Most codices force your champion to change his normal gun with a pistol and ccw and even if the codex doesn't force you to, most pictures and examples show them having this outfit.

2nd: Most cideces force you to take different weapons for your champions, wich disqualifies him for most special options, like IG.

3rd: Most champions have better options. For example, a Hekatrix may take a wych weapon, especially because the entry says model and not wych, but who would take a Hekatrix and fit her with a shardnet instead of an agoniser?

So condensed most people don't even think about taking special weapons with a champion, because GW got this picture of pistol and ccw so etched on our memories we can't think of them without. (I had to look it up, because I was sure it was different, but our dracons keep their splinter rifle and the pistol+ccw combi is just optional) And for those who think about it most codices don't allow it, because the champion looses the weapon he needs to swap. Or their champions have better options, than taking a special weapon, any other trooper could take.

We however have champions, that may take weapons, that are of no use to them, like the solarite or the Dracon. Additionally we have champions that may take weapons on top of special weapons instead of swapping, like Reaver champion or Acothyst.

All I said is true, but first and foremost it is not done, because it is not allowed very often. Wyches may do it, but warriors or reavers may not.

@Tiri Rana wrote:

And on top of all that: Look at the trueborn entry.
It allows every trueborn to swap his splinter rifle with pistol and ccw. The dracon does, like with normal warriors don't get them by default, but may change his ccw and/or pistol, how could he exchange them, if he couldn't take them at first?
Double-checked it in the english version, the splinter rifle exchange clearly says model, the others don't. So of course the Dracon may exchange his rifle for pistol+ccw or carbine, but not anything else.
@Tiri Rana wrote:

He is a trueborn and so may like all other trueborns exchange his splinter rifle with pistol and ccw and these he may exchange further, because he is a dracon, too.
And if he can take pistol and ccw, he can, of course, take a Blaster or a Splinter cannon instead.

And the entry lists a composition of 3-10 trueborn, so if a dracon was no trueborn, he could not be part of the unit, since it may not contain non-trueborns.
The composition just tells us what we have to buy for the costs in the entry. For trueborn this would be 3-10 trueborn for 12 points per model, and after that this unit may take options, one of wich is the dracon. Space marines, for example buy a tactical squad of 4 marines and one sergeant, for 90 points, but they may add up to five space marines after that.
So units may contain things not accounted for in their composition, when fielded, but they just contain these models, when first bought, before they are upgraded.


So conclusion is: I was wrong yesterday and upgraded characters, may they be champions or weapon teams, may not take options, that only unupgraded models may take.
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Kinnay
Wych
Kinnay

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PostSubject: Re: Champions and special weapons?   Champions and special weapons? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 12:07

Respect for taking the time to take a step back and reflect upon what you have written earlier!

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SinisterPlank
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PostSubject: Re: Champions and special weapons?   Champions and special weapons? I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 05 2011, 10:51

Weapon selections are a tough call here, imo. Given that upgrade characters, such as a scourge Solarite for example, are effectively just another trooper in the Scourges unit (as stated in the rulebook) one could argue that it could infact be given a Haywire Blaster, as it says that any Scourge can take one.

However, differenting between the listings "Any Model" and "Any Scourge" one could also argue that "Any Scourge" refers to only those named Scourge, and not those named Solarite.

Personally, while I take pride in being a diligent student of the rules, I prefer to play somewhat narratively, and thus generally give my squadleaders CCW+pistol, because that's what they tend to have in the novels and fluff.
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