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Dimwitweasel
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 12:47

A lot of times I see my fellow archons bragging to the lesser races about our range of assault units in Raiders. While I'm very proud of this aswell (it's like having the largest afterall Razz ) I think I do detect a small error. An error of 1" to be exact. So it's not that big of a deal...

What I see is: Deploy Raider 12" --> Move 12" --> disembark 3" --> Fleet (hopefully 6") --> Assault 6" --> 1" automatically in assault distance. Which brings us max. to 40" assault range 1st turn.

But the rulebook clearly states we have to disembark within 2". So I believe the -disembark 3"- should be -disembark 2"-.

It's only 1", but still... What do you guys think?
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 13:03

No no, it's 1.99999" + 25mm in case of standard round base (and much more in case of 40mm, I love Grots). Any part of base (even tip of edge) must be within 2 inches, so while this is not exactly 3", people simplify that to 3".

Also, considering our crappy armour (AV10 OT) You may want to deploy sideway, then turn in movement phase and "start" with front peeking out of Yout deployment. This should give You another inch or two.

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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 13:12

Yeah you see, I can't find "Any part of base (even tip of edge) must be within 2 inches" in the rulebook. What I do read is "within 2 inch" which means to me that the whole base must be inside the 2" zone.

Yeah and about the sideways deploying shannanigans. IMHO that is illegal too. I wanted to start a topic on that after this one, but since you bring it up... Wink

I always thought length is always measured from a single point from the model. So if you measure from the front, you always should measure from the front. I personally always measure from the absolute center of the model.


Last edited by tlronin on Tue Jun 28 2011, 13:19; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 13:19

yeah the deploying sideways trick and spinning 90degrees for free in the first movement phase is within the letter of the rules, but very much outwith the spirit....

however, as Local_Ork says the measuring for disembarking is correct - to be within 2" any part of the models base is within 2". just like measuring distance for unit coherence or for weapon range, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 13:29

@rider wrote:
yeah the deploying sideways trick and spinning 90degrees for free in the first movement phase is within the letter of the rules, but very much outwith the spirit....

Is it within the letter of the rule because it doesn't specify you have to measure from the same point of the model the whole game? So what you mean is, you could deploy sideways 12" from your tableborder. Then turn 90 degree. Then start measuring from the prow to move 12", which gives you 2" for free? And this is allowed by RAW in the rulebook?

You can only do this once at deployment then though right? Because the rest of the game you have to measure from the prow now? Right?

@rider wrote:

however, as Local_Ork says the measuring for disembarking is correct - to be within 2" any part of the models base is within 2". just like measuring distance for unit coherence or for weapon range, etc.

I'll look in my rulebook when I'm home from work this evening. But are you certain it's 'any part of'? Because as I remember the exact wording is 'within 2 inch'. If it's so then my comment is invalid indeed.
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 13:35

for the deploying trick:

yes - you measure from the hull of the vehicle, though it doesn't stipulate that that is always the same point on the hull - just the same point at the beginning and end of the move.


for the disembarking:

compare to shooting a 24" gun. you must be WITHIN 24", that means you need to be able to measure from base EDGE to base EDGE as being 24" or less. same goes with measuring disembarking or any other measurement.
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 15:05

Indeed.
And unit coherency is best analogy rider.
Actually if GW right now would FAQ this to "Let's say to disembark You must be in coherency with Your transport." then rules would not change at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 15:12

Thnx guys. You two are right.

Still have to read the concerning sections in the book when I get home though. But your replies are crisp and clear really.

Which is great news ofcourse. We keep our 1st turn 40" assault. And with deploying your Raider sideways you even get 42" assault! Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 18:35

To help out here look at the picture at the lower right hand corner on page 67 of the main rule book. You will see a picture of a rhino with 2" disembarkation "bubbles" around it. You will also see a marine unit in the picture as well with one of the marines barely touching the bubble (I mean it is hardly touches shaded area of 2" from the rhino) and the caption at the bottom of the picture says, "All of the marines have disembarked within 2" of the transport's access points."

It is a slam-dunk picture - you can easily get that extra 1" of the base diameter - take a look.

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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 13:37

The extra 2" from turning the raider has nothing to do with measuring movement, and everything to do with disembarking range. When you turn the raider, the front sticks over your 12" deployment zone, effectively giving you 2" more to disembark in, even if you measure from the rudder. No matter where you measure from, the raider still only moves 12". It's because open-topped allows you to disembark within 2" of any part of the hull that you get an extra 2" when you turn the raider. You could move the raider 12" sideways and then turn it (if a raider could strafe). The tip of the prow will still stick ~2" further in the direction of your movement, and you can then deploy 2" from that. A little cheesy, yes, but the raider still only ever physically moves 12". You could theoretically do the same thing with a land raider, but the dimensions of the land raider would only give you .5 - 1" extra when disembarking from the front, as it's mostly square and pivots are easier on a skimmer base.


Last edited by Dimwitweasel on Wed Jun 29 2011, 14:50; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 14:17

You could use it with a rhino turning backwards and so bringing its rear access point closer to the enemy. This should give 2-3" bonus, but includes revealing your rear armor.

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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 14:42

Indeed.
Good we can "just" assault from any point (including ram) due to OT and AV 10/10/10 don't care about side shoots...

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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 30 2011, 17:27

@Local_Ork wrote:
Indeed. Good we can "just" assault from any point (including ram)...

I do not count the ram as part of the hull so I do not use it for movement, shooting or disembarking.

I am curious how many players do use it for a source of measurement?
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 01 2011, 09:45

i consider the ram as like a weapon on another model - eg: cannon or sponson on a tank, dark lance on the side of a ravage - rather than as hull.

had it been fully integral, like a continuation of the hull rather than having that gap and essentially being a separate piece, i would have said otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 01 2011, 13:29

Don't know. Persoanlly I would play it as part of hull, since You should use (ie glue on model) it anyway, but that's depends on local agreements about them.

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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 02 2011, 11:14

I don't count the prow as part of the hull either, because of pivoting trick. When you don't count the prow, it's not that big a deal to move and turn.

I've even heard about using the shock prow to maximise effect of the trick because it's longer (was it on this forum?). Well, that would be pure cheating in my book.
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 03 2011, 23:58

Note that the rules for disembarking from an Open-Topped vehicle specifically state that models may disembark within 2'' of "any part of the vehicle", rather than "any part of the vehicle's hull".

Another slam-dunk: the prow-deployment is perfectly legal. If it makes you squirm or feel queasy, that's okay -- people have been doing it since 2nd Edition. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Disembarking   Disembarking I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 05 2011, 10:15

This is one of these points where I generally clarify what I count as part of the vehicle and not part of the vehicle from the start. I count the prow, because it's pretty noticable and quite attached. I don't count portruding spears/pikes, or the tailfin thing though.

This is generally not an issue in a game, so long as you've got a dialogue with your opponent. If you count it, you count it, you measure distances and deployment from the tip of the prow. If you don't count it, you don't count it, you measure distances and deployments from the edge of the hullplating. (If he insists on not counting the prow, that actually earns you like an inch on your weaponsrange, because the gunmounts are moved foreward.)
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