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mug7703
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Sybarite
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PostSubject: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 06:50

So, tried a new list the other day, think it is a OK starting point for some cheese.

Baron Sathonyx
Heamonculus w/LG

3x Wracks in Venom w/Dual SC
3x Wracks in Venom w/Dual SC
3x Wracks in Venom w/Dual SC
3x Wracks in Venom w/Dual SC
3x Wracks in Venom w/Dual SC
3x Wracks in Venom w/Dual SC

3x Beastmasters, 5x Khymera, 4x Razorwingflocks

Ravager
Ravager
Ravager

Farseer w/Jetbike

5x Dire Avengers in Wave Serpant w/ SL

Wraithknight

ADL w/ Quadgun

DA is dismounting T1 to mount the Quad, while the Farseer, Baron and Heamonculus start with the beasts. Heamonculus leaves turn one, only to give the paintoken. Farseer will either have 2x Twinlinked (primarys) to give to WK and Ravagers(Beastgroup if needed), or fortune for the beast group.

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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 11:30

This looks quite nasty. Although you realise the beasts themselves don't benefit from FNP, right? I think the Haemonculi would be better in a Venom with some Wracks.
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Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 11:39

Starting the baron with wracks means you can steal a pain token and have 2 on the beasts. Only 1 away from fearless!

The list is something similar to what I run. Beast unit, the baron, and lots of vehicles. I run war walkers instead of the wraithknight, but to each his own. Works well.
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 11:58

@mug7703 wrote:
This looks quite nasty. Although you realise the beasts themselves don't benefit from FNP, right? I think the Haemonculi would be better in a Venom with some Wracks.

Huh this is actually news to me, I have played with beastmaster group the last 1,5 year and havnt picked up on that, people havnt even said anything in turnements... And you are totaly correct.

So yes, the Haemonculi is better with some wracks!

@autopilot wrote:
Starting the baron with wracks means you can steal a pain token and have 2 on the beasts. Only 1 away from fearless!

The list is something similar to what I run. Beast unit, the baron, and lots of vehicles. I run war walkers instead of the wraithknight, but to each his own. Works well.

See post on above. really only Baron and Beastmasters (not beasts) that benefit from it, so heamonculi will go in to a wrack squad.

Well reason I have tested WW, and yea they fit in to the DE shape of things, but I actually see that WK have posed a better threat than WW, also he is actually more reliable and better at board controll than WW.

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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 13:04

Yea if you look in their profile the beasts don't have the 'power from pain' rule.

Quite a solid list though. Should perform well.
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 13:07

@mug7703 wrote:
Yea if you look in their profile the beasts don't have the 'power from pain' rule.

Quite a solid list though. Should perform well.

Yea i did see that now Sad

Anyway yea it performed well so far. I actually took down a Wave serpant list against a player I would say is on the same skill level as me. Quite the surprise if you ask me, but I got lucky, good dices Wink

But I dont know if this is my next turnement list tho, I am looking at alot of options now with the Eldar release, give me about 50 or so matches and I can say what cheese I will run Razz

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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 16:03

I question the value of 3 man wrack squads. In practice they were pretty worthless. I say drop the haemie and 1 troops to get some proper warriors or wyches. If going warriors their splinter weapons more than make up for the 2 lost splinter cannons and you gain 5 blasters. If going wyches you get plasma blasts and HWGs.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 17:59

@Brom wrote:
I question the value of 3 man wrack squads. In practice they were pretty worthless.

I'd agree with Brom there, splinter spam is fun but there are much more effective things you can put in a Venom than three Wracks. Even five wracks with a liquifier gun is worth losing other stuff for, as they'll actually achieve something, and be better at holding objectives. Three wracks will not worry anybody - they're too easy to sweep off an objective or gun down before they get anywhere as they're slower than kabal and cult stuff and too few in number.

At least one squad of wyches with Haywire grenades would round out the list nicely. I wouldn't drop the Haemonculus though, it's nice to have a range of scoring units, and obviously you need him or the wracks are totally pointless.

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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 19:24

@Darklight wrote:

See post on above. really only Baron and Beastmasters (not beasts) that benefit from it, so heamonculi will go in to a wrack squad.
You're correct, but getting the beasts Fearless is a HUGE deal. I've been swept once, and it really hurts you. You don't have quite as many eggs in the beastmaster basket as some people, though.
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20 2013, 00:34

I'm quite fond of having 3 Warrior Venom gun boats and 3 cheap Venoms unlocked by the Wracks. I find I don't advance everything really far up the field and having 6 Venoms firing on T1 is quite devastating.
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kingc1313
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20 2013, 06:22

@Mr Believer wrote:
five wracks with a liquifier gun is worth losing other stuff for, as they'll actually achieve something, and be better at holding objectives. Three wracks will not worry anybody - they're too easy to sweep off an objective or gun down before they get anywhere as they're slower than kabal and cult stuff and too few in number.

i agree with this. you should keep the wracks just toughen a few up. i would still pass that pain token on to baron. then jump the hemi into one of the venoms and give him a liquifier. 5 should be able to hold an objective much better than any other DE unit. I haven't ever tryed beasts though they seem like they could be really tough. It should be a nasty list regardless.

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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20 2013, 06:54

@kingc1313 wrote:
@Mr Believer wrote:
five wracks with a liquifier gun is worth losing other stuff for, as they'll actually achieve something, and be better at holding objectives. Three wracks will not worry anybody - they're too easy to sweep off an objective or gun down before they get anywhere as they're slower than kabal and cult stuff and too few in number.

i agree with this.  you should keep the wracks just toughen a few up.  i would still pass that pain token on to baron.  then jump the hemi into one of the venoms and give him a liquifier.  5 should be able to hold an objective much better than any other DE unit.  I haven't ever tryed beasts though they seem like they could be really tough.  It should be a nasty list regardless.

Answer to both:

I usually play a Venomspam list (darklight) with Warriors and blasters, and the trueborns. Yes you will get more use of the troops alot more infact. But as the shift of flyers of 6th ed and more recent turnements I have seen that this list suffers more as you have to ignore the objective to much in the first few rounds.

What Wracks offer are; FNP and T4. That is actually huge, now why only 3? well to save points. To get a LG I have to spend another 30points per group. That is just 90pts extra for uping 3 Venoms. Then I loose 1 Venom, thats actually 12 SC shots. Those are more effective in 6th than 3 flamers will ever be, why? Because there are so few mech spams, and flamers dont work on those either.... Also SC shots will see action all game long, flamers wont.

Well I do have 2 more in the group? Yea sure, but I loose troop choices. Its actually better to have more weaker troops (more targets) than fewer troops. If they are going to shoot at it, its most likely will go down in a hail of fire.

You put a 5man Wrack in venom and suddently you have 4 troop choices insteed of 6, now allready you cant claim 5 objectives in a 5objective mission (that usualy is 2 or 3 of the missions in turnements). So its to easy for me to take out 2 troop choices and actually win me the match on that alone.

Also now in 6th its not about killing oponent, its about playing the mission, if you do that you will win 8/10 matches, the last two on good dicing.

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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20 2013, 13:13

@Darklight wrote:
@kingc1313 wrote:
@Mr Believer wrote:
five wracks with a liquifier gun is worth losing other stuff for, as they'll actually achieve something, and be better at holding objectives. Three wracks will not worry anybody - they're too easy to sweep off an objective or gun down before they get anywhere as they're slower than kabal and cult stuff and too few in number.

i agree with this.  you should keep the wracks just toughen a few up.  i would still pass that pain token on to baron.  then jump the hemi into one of the venoms and give him a liquifier.  5 should be able to hold an objective much better than any other DE unit.  I haven't ever tryed beasts though they seem like they could be really tough.  It should be a nasty list regardless.

Answer to both:

I usually play a Venomspam list (darklight) with Warriors and blasters, and the trueborns. Yes you will get more use of the troops alot more infact. But as the shift of flyers of 6th ed and more recent turnements I have seen that this list suffers more as you have to ignore the objective to much in the first few rounds.

What Wracks offer are; FNP and T4. That is actually huge, now why only 3? well to save points. To get a LG I have to spend another 30points per group. That is just 90pts extra for uping 3 Venoms. Then I loose 1 Venom, thats actually 12 SC shots. Those are more effective in 6th than 3 flamers will ever be, why? Because there are so few mech spams, and flamers dont work on those either.... Also SC shots will see action all game long, flamers wont.

Well I do have 2 more in the group? Yea sure, but I loose troop choices. Its actually better to have more weaker troops (more targets) than fewer troops. If they are going to shoot at it, its most likely will go down in a hail of fire.

You put a 5man Wrack in venom and suddently you have 4 troop choices insteed of 6, now allready you cant claim 5 objectives in a 5objective mission (that usualy is 2 or 3 of the missions in turnements). So its to easy for me to take out 2 troop choices and actually win me the match on that alone.

Also now in 6th its not about killing oponent, its about playing the mission, if you do that you will win 8/10 matches, the last two on good dicing.

There has always been a problem with wracks as main troop choices.. they do not benefit the army in anyway than just sitting on on objectives as 3 man squads.. 6'th edition does not favor small squads or units who just "sit there".

The german ETC team has a motto which does something like this "If the unit does not actively participate in the game, dont take them" examples of these are cultists or wracks.
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 20 2013, 13:35

@Godreas wrote:
@Darklight wrote:
@kingc1313 wrote:
@Mr Believer wrote:
five wracks with a liquifier gun is worth losing other stuff for, as they'll actually achieve something, and be better at holding objectives. Three wracks will not worry anybody - they're too easy to sweep off an objective or gun down before they get anywhere as they're slower than kabal and cult stuff and too few in number.

i agree with this.  you should keep the wracks just toughen a few up.  i would still pass that pain token on to baron.  then jump the hemi into one of the venoms and give him a liquifier.  5 should be able to hold an objective much better than any other DE unit.  I haven't ever tryed beasts though they seem like they could be really tough.  It should be a nasty list regardless.

Answer to both:

I usually play a Venomspam list (darklight) with Warriors and blasters, and the trueborns. Yes you will get more use of the troops alot more infact. But as the shift of flyers of 6th ed and more recent turnements I have seen that this list suffers more as you have to ignore the objective to much in the first few rounds.

What Wracks offer are; FNP and T4. That is actually huge, now why only 3? well to save points. To get a LG I have to spend another 30points per group. That is just 90pts extra for uping 3 Venoms. Then I loose 1 Venom, thats actually 12 SC shots. Those are more effective in 6th than 3 flamers will ever be, why? Because there are so few mech spams, and flamers dont work on those either.... Also SC shots will see action all game long, flamers wont.

Well I do have 2 more in the group? Yea sure, but I loose troop choices. Its actually better to have more weaker troops (more targets) than fewer troops. If they are going to shoot at it, its most likely will go down in a hail of fire.

You put a 5man Wrack in venom and suddently you have 4 troop choices insteed of 6, now allready you cant claim 5 objectives in a 5objective mission (that usualy is 2 or 3 of the missions in turnements). So its to easy for me to take out 2 troop choices and actually win me the match on that alone.

Also now in 6th its not about killing oponent, its about playing the mission, if you do that you will win 8/10 matches, the last two on good dicing.

There has always been a problem with wracks as main troop choices.. they do not benefit the army in anyway than just sitting on on objectives as 3 man squads.. 6'th edition does not favor small squads or units who just "sit there".

The german ETC team has a motto which does something like this "If the unit does not actively participate in the game, dont take them" examples of these are cultists or wracks.

I totaly disagree with that. I can go an just play the objective and I will win most of the games without even bothering about the oponent. The 6th edition has become more a one man game than it was before

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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2013, 05:41

The problem with DE playing the objective is the majority of other armies do this better. I've used 3 wrack venoms at 1k and less and they work but as stated above they don't contribute. The venoms are great but IMO your essentially paying 95 pts for an empty venom because any unit we can put in one can contest but most of the other options can also perform AT, AI, tarpit etc and let's face it unless an opponents units are dead or he chooses to leave them alone 3 wracks aren't gonna hold objectives any better. Hell if anything get some splinterborn instead for 26 pts more that shoot like 2 venoms.
For example I run a 1k list with 3 hwg splinterborn 4 wyches 7 venoms that's shoots like 10 venoms and still has AT ability if necessary.
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2013, 06:02

@Brom wrote:
The problem with DE playing the objective is the majority of other armies do this better. I've used 3 wrack venoms at 1k and less and they work but as stated above they don't contribute. The venoms are great but IMO your essentially paying 95 pts for an empty venom because any unit we can put in one can contest but most of the other options can also perform AT, AI, tarpit etc and let's face it unless an opponents units are dead or he chooses to leave them alone 3 wracks aren't gonna hold objectives any better. Hell if anything get some splinterborn instead for 26 pts more that shoot like 2 venoms.
For example I run a 1k list with 3 hwg splinterborn 4 wyches 7 venoms that's shoots like 10 venoms and still has AT ability if necessary.

Objective placement. Cant state this clear enough.

Actually it is so freaking easy to just place 2 or 3 of the objective so that you can unload 2/3 wracks then just push everything els forward midfield. What is essentially going to happen is him having to move out to the side adn you are controlling the board.

Then if you have 2 objectives then he have paced 1 center, and there is no problem denying him that for the rest of the game. Heck it isnt hard shooting out his troops and denying him anything at all. Same thing works for relic.

Yes 3 wracks might be easy to take down, but there is usualy cover close to objectives, then its a matter of camping them tehre to get that coversave, along with FNP. you even got overfload of wracks to use, 3 wont die.

Beastgroups are you friend for boardcontroll. Also remember if he doesnt shoot them out in turn 1, he is going to be to occupied to actually think about your wracks, what is essentially goint to happen is a) he gets whiped because he dosnt care about the beasts or b) he looses to objectives because does. (Scenario a) and b) is if he doesnt take them out T1).

Also remember that most of that most of the competitive army's have had a shift towards footslogging lists, something that makes Venom spam fantastic.

Oh, Wyches are crap imo this edition, they have some use against some units, but as the shift from veichles have moved, and overwatch has come in... well not a good edition for them unfortunatly. (I have been exprimenting with a Wyches cult, mix results so far)

I usualy use warriors in the Venoms, and I properly will in competitive play the next few turnements. But I hope this list might be a real alternative... even tho what I think might be the best alternative is 3 Beast grous Wink

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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts competitive (DE/E)   1850pts competitive (DE/E) I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 21 2013, 19:39

If your just looking for a viable alternative troops choice then cool wrack venoms work, I just saw the word cheese and competitive in the title.

I agree on your tactics and strategy including objective placement, my approach is similar but so is that of my opponents and their mindset also. objective placement is 50/50 terrain is variable and so on. Not saying these approaches aren't effective or desirable but both dudes are looking to assert their will and set the stage in their favor. List design is one of the few non variables in the game.

I run dual beast packs in the majority of my lists and you're assessment is dead on, beasts are excellent. On wyches I did not rate them initially but that was when I used only a couple units. Now I run 4-5 units with hwg minimum and I've had far better success going from someone who didn't like them to wyches being my favorite troops choice. Saturation makes a big difference.

Anyway run the wrack upgrades for awhile and see how they fair. Many people like this approach. I did find them durable and cheap which allowed me to spend points on other choices, I just became dissatisfied with spending points on essentially a venom upgrade as opposed to guns or grenades.
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