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 A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 15:11

Thoughts on Objective Secure

Recently I have been playing a lot of games with my grey knights using their nemesis strike detachment. The formation trades in objective secure for rites of teleportation (roll for reserves on turn 1, battle focus  on the turn a unit deepstrikes). I haven't really found  the lack of objective secure to be a problem. I think there are a few important questions to ask yourself.

How resilient are my objective secure units?

This comes down to two things, numbers and survivability. If you don't have many objective secure units, and they are not survivable, then there isn't much point taking objective secure.

How mobile are my objective secure units?

This is where dedicated transports with objective secure shine, they are cheap and are very mobile meaning they will get to use their objective secure rule a lot more than most other troops. Raiders/venoms benefit from this massively.

How expendable are my objective secure units?

Contesting often leaves units exposed and vulnerable to retaliation, you don't want to put a unit that is not expendable in a vulnerable position. For example kabalite warriors prefer to be at range where they can inflict casualties on your opponent from a safe distance.

What is the offensive capability of my troops?

In the case of grey knights, my troops are terminators, they are absolutely lethal thanks to AP3 force weapons and hammer hand. They slaughter most things in assault. If they are close enough to contest a unit then they are close enough to shoot and assault it meaning that unit more often than not will die. As a result objective secure is a moot point.

On the flip side if my opponent tries to steal an objective held by my terminators, it's pretty much guaranteed that the unit he uses to steal with objective secure will die the following turn. This is ideal as terminators are slow so they prefer it when enemies come to them. In the long run this benefits me.

Dedicated transports are an example of the other spectrum of this, where they have almost no damage output, so objective secure gives them a lot of utility.

Hope that helps. Smile

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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 15:21

Yep - put nicely mush, ty - should be noted that if building a list without ObSec you need strong assault elements to clear objectives - my proposed list has incubi, two grot units and a reaver unit for just that purpose. All three units are tasty - Fearless/FNP/Rampaging grots with ID and FC by turn three - yes. Klaivax incubi with succubus glaive for a ton of AP2 attacks at initiative - tasty.

When looking at th realspace list with no ObSec we have to also consider how DE plays now. We want to hold off a bit till turn three when suddenly a lot of bonuses from PfP kick in. Reaserves are now a critical element in our lists. We wen from alpha strike to beta strike. How we deploy with our mobile force and how we maintain proper range for maximum damage to our opponent and minimal damage in return is going to determine who wins these match ups.

Reavers are good but I will mention this ...
White Scar bikers have HoW s% attacks too. They have scout, they have krak. No one thinks them that OP without a hammer HQ. They even get an assault bike and can combat squad. So yes, reavers are good but lets not overstate their prowess either (apologies in advance to mush, lol).

Now reavers have some very good uses - linebreaker, grabbing objectives, going after devs, long fangs et all. But their shooting is woeful. In assault - if they get the charge and if there is no dangerous terrain, assail, etc., up - yes HoW rending rocks. I think they are good - but I think we need to purpose them in our list properly and not look at them as some kind of crutch unit.

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Signed,
Rock.


Last edited by egorey on Thu Oct 09 2014, 01:24; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 20:23

Reavers still havent moved me. I'm still thinking about them, still pondering them but as you put many battles inthe rear view, you have a lot of access to memories of how things played against you as well as in your hands and sometimes those memories aren't impressive.


Reavers hold some potential? I'll admit I havent bent my full will into viewing all the units as i find the book structure distracting and my current work and home situation has squeezed me badly for time. But though i can see some Reaver potential i am just not moved yet. Maybe i should test them and see...

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PostSubject: Ligolski's Initial Thoughts on 7th Edition DE Codex   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 03:32

Greetings fellow Archons, Succubi, and Haemonculi!

So its finally time that I got to my first impressions of the codex proper (not going to talk about the supplement since I haven't seen it yet). So I would like to first begin by stating that I got the iPad edition because I was impatient and didn't want to wait for my FLGS to get their copy in (they were delayed). So I took the dive and bought it for my iPad mini (conveniently I won it at a conference while I was in grad school!) I must say, if all you care about is the rules, it is a good way to get the codices because the pages hot link to codex rules and also give you relevant BRB rules as well...super nice. I still miss the feeling of a codex in hands though, but oh well.

Anyways...


I'm not going to delve into every nook and cranny on this post but I will hit most of the units if at least talking about categories (hq,troops, etc) and what I see there currently. WARNING this is long…


HQ
Wow...things got very different here. This is good and bad. I must say the wargear being so limited has really made it extremely difficult in deciding what HQs I want to use. Do I want an Archon but no ap2 but have a nice invuln (though pricey) or do I want a squishier succubi that gives me ap2? That is one of the main questions I keep asking myself looking at the HQ selection. I like combat oriented HQs and the archon had been my one and only with a token haemie occasionally to boost PfP. However I can throw that concept out the door. Archon and Succubus are both good characters in their own right.  I think you could get away using them interchangeably for a combat unit...really comes down to your preference in AP2.

Then we have the haemie. He is nice in that he boosts a PfP turn for a unit he is with...this is super nice for certain deepstriking assault units that need that extra punch that PfP gives you later. Furthermore, the haemie is T4 which is also nice but not all that noteworthy. If you take a hemie I'd imagine you'd be wanting to use him for his PfP boosting and the fun weapons/tools of torment that he has access to. There are some nifty options in there that could go well with grot squads and the like.

Out of the base 3 HQ choices, not a single one wins me over as MUST play. They can all carry the WWP and they all have different wargear options that can set them apart from one another. I feel like its really down to your army on how you go here.

As for special characters, we have 3: Urien, Lelith, Drazhar. Personally the only one I feel may be worth it is Urien and MAYBE Lelith....and that's only because she ignores armor saves and is cheaper than before. I just can't believe they gave her +1 WS for a warlord trait...so useful... >_> . Anyways I'm going to move to Urien since I see the most useful of the characters. His great ability is to make the PfP boosting ability that the haemie has a 12" bubble bonus...awesome! This is great if you plan on keeping him near other units that could use the boost. He is also T5 which is great as well as IWND and FNP (4+) AND a 4++...that's just nasty. I'm thinking about using him in my army. I just think Urien has a bunch of good utility for being a bonus master and good in cc with a nice ichor injector which is pretty sweet (fleshbane and on 6 causes ID). He fits right at home with some grots.


Lastly, we have the Court of the Archon. As you should know by now this unit got so much better by simply not needing certain models in the unit. You have full freedom of choice. The big winners I feel in this unit are medusae and sslyth as they are solid however are points heavy. I see these being best deployed along side an Archon with a WWP and go hunting.



TROOPS
Well guys I'm not going to lie. Wyches got kicked pretty hard. Personally I used them as suicide AT squads with HWG...now they are really good at killing weak infantry as all the special weapons are AP5. I probably won't be using them anytime soon, but who knows maybe their is hope...but I doubt it considering they didn't get cheaper at all.

That leaves warriors. Solid as always, cheaper though SC got more expensive offsetting the savings. Stick these guys in a raider or venom and do as you always did...gunboat it. Splinter racks work for all splinter weapons now so that may be worth taking though is pricey once you add in nightshields. Nightshields giving stealth is pretty sweet in my opinion as I'll gladly take an improved jink for our floating paper boats.


ELITES
This is a fairly crowded slot. We have Incubi, Mandrakes, Wracks, and Grotesques...all of which are not bad by any means. Incubi still deal out a ton of ap2 attacks and at average strength. If you liked using Incubi previously you'll be happy that not a ton has changed minus loosing powers for the klaivex and a decent points drop. Personally I don't use them because they die pretty easily for a still pricey unit. However, they can drop it like its hot real quick and fast.

Mandrakes...these guys are so much better than before. Cheaper and 4+ cover automatically with lots of deployment options makes these guys an interesting choice. They aren't great at shooting and they aren't great at assault, but in this hybrid form and lots of BRB rules these guys might actually see some play time for some people. One thing I see as an interesting idea is to perhaps use them in venoms (now that they are FA choices as well) and use them to baleblast people and get into position as a counter assault unit. Lots of deployment options as I said so its really down to your army and play style if you want to use them.

Wracks. They are still the neat T4 guys they were before with lots of poison assault stuff. I find the Ossefactor to be hilarious and what I would equip them with if I were to use them (probably only with the help of the coven supplement though). These guys ultimately don't shine especially over the other options for elites but if you like them then go for it. I think they will be more useful with the coven codex.

Grots...OMG AWESOME SAUCE. These guys stayed the same points and gained so much. They have access to poison 4+ that IDs on wounds of 6. At S5 you will generally be rerolling to wound as well against normal infantry. These guys are just huge winners. I loved them last edition and they got better so of course I already received 4 more rat ogres for conversion work to field more! I can't say enough about these guys honestly. You still need to watch a really crappy Ld but lets be serious you are attaching something that is awesome to these guys whether DE or Eldar. I think units of 4 in a boat are still great or even larger pack of the guys if you really want to go for super unit status.


EDIT: I forgot trueborn and bloodbrides. I was never a fan last edition really. They are cheaper this edition I believe, but ultimately compete against a solid set of choices in the elites where we have need to spend points else where at times. Trueborn in venoms with blasters is the classic use and probably will stay that way. Wyches got bad so bloodbrides followed as well.

FAST ATTACK
Even more crowded for us (though alleviated by the new detachment if you go that route), we have scourges, hellions, reavers, beastpack, raider, venom and the razorwing. Scourges are great utility gun units. Quick and carrying a ton of special weapons I recommend we look here for our AT abilities. Heat lances and haywire blasters are what people will be arming these guys with. Personally, I think heat lances have more utility as they can hurt heavy infantry very well which is nice when you face Nids and other armor light armies. I see value in both for sure though.

Hellions. Same use as last edition just cheaper essentially. I really don’t have anything to say about these guys.
Reavers. These guys got interesting. I’d say these guys best fill a utility unit roll which I think was their roll last edition as well. Need AT? Got it. Need counter assault? Definitely got it now. Fast mover? For sure. I think units of 6 will be the most useful with 2 caltrops and/or 2 heat lances depending on what you want on them.
Beastpack is now a different squad all together. I actually think they are still usable since you will ultimately want to take 2+ squads to saturate the field with targets. That’s how I would consider using them at first glance. Multiple packs running around harassing the enemy. Let’s put it this way the Kymera costs the same in points as a wych…and is as good in assault and at S4/T4 with beast movement.
Now we also have our transports as FA choices. I would only ever take the raider if I wanted to put eldar in them. I would certainly take venoms though. I don’t need to pay the squad tax that they would have needed otherwise. I will probably be running warriors in raiders leaving my venoms searching for occupants…thus I’ll just run them as empty gunboats!
Lastly, there is the razorwing. It’s the same as before essentially just cheaper and now FA! I’d gladly run these as they are great against infantry and what I recommend using them for.

HEAVY SUPPORT
We have 4 options here: Talos, Cronos, Ravager, and Voidraven. First off…OMG TALOS IN SQUADS!!! Second, OMG CRONOS 4+ FNP BOOST! I will certainly be using my guys with much more happiness now! I recommend these guys highly!  Talos will be used as beat sticks and Cronos will be nice for an army that values synergy between units for sure. . I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) the way smash is worded allows for the CC wargear he can take such as the ichor injector to be ap2 since it is still a CC attack...aweome!
Ravagers…lost aerial strike but ultimately keeps its firepower but at an increased cost if you want lances. I wasn’t into them personally last edition because I wanted to be different and now I’m glad I went that route. Still a good AT unit just not as mobile as previously.
Lastly, we have the bomber. It got more expensive for some reason while getting worse armor…can’t really see what happened there at all. I want to like it simply because it’s AT/AA abilities are amazing. Personally I wouldn’t ever take missiles as they don’t help AT all that much. We desperately need AT/AA and I think this guy will ultimately see some use when supported by razorwings in an air force style list. I might try to use it to support my units in heavier AT duty such as knights and other aircraft, but I’m hesitant on it.

SUMMARY
I believe there are a good amount of play style options that the dex offers and I think ultimately is a good codex that fits in well with the majority of codices (read not eldar). I’m excited to give it a try and use the coven boosts! As we further dissect the new codex over the next months we will get more detailed for sure and how things pan out.



I would like to finish with a list I came up with a couple nights ago. It’s a work in progress and ultimately depends on how the coven supplement works out…need to get my hands on it to really examine the options there.

For 1850 pts I’m thinking of:
Quote :

DE Special Detachment from Codex:
Archon (agonizer, clone field, soul trap, animus vitae, and wwp) -170pts
Urien Rakarth- 140 pts

8 Grots (no upgrades-liquifiers are a trap)

10 warriors (SC) in boat with boat (splinter racks and nightshield)-180
10 warriors (SC) in boat with boat (splinter racks and nightshield)-180

5 scourges (4 heat lances)- 120pts
5 scourges (4 heat lances)- 120 pts
2x Venoms (dual SC) -65 pts each

Voidraven Bomber 160pts

Coven Formation
Talos/Cronos/Hamie -370 pts
-ichor injector, SC/spirit syphon/flesh gauntlet and wwp

So this is actually a list that could easily go full null deployment without batting an eye. I would probably leave the gunboats and venoms on the field for turn 1 and deepstrike the rest. Lots of ID possibilities. The archon is a ton of points…not sure I’m ok with that yet. Like I said in my first impressions, none of the HQs stand out except for Urien who joins the grots in this list. The archon ultimately brings the wwp for the big grot squad with urien. I couldn’t bring myself to pay more points for the shadowfield in a list like this, but could be possible if I drop the voidraven and add an aegis or bastion with comms relay which this list really needs. You run out of points quickly when you want to squeeze in so much when running 2 wwp ‘bombs.’ The talos cover formation is an actual squad per the formation special rules and would deepstrike near to urien for that PfP boost and to boost the grots FNP to 4+. Scourges give me AT ability and venoms give more dakka for AI. A lot of points on upgrades in this list…which is very different for me. I’m usually a minimalist. I’m not sure how much the Archon should be tooled up…I think that the huskblade is useless now though and went for the agonizer build with soul trap to prey on enemy characters with easy of wounding anything I want with potential rerolls to wound once the trap gets going some. Talos gets ichor injector for fleshbane and ID on 6’s to wound…all at AP2 if I’m not mistaken which is great when you face WKs muhahaha (assuming I don’t poison it to death first).

I’d be more comfortable if I could have a comms relay and thus 2k might be a better choice for this type of list. To scale it down and not lose the much needed AT I might limit the grots down to 6. This allows for an Aegis with relay.  Thoughts?

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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 04:46

I like most of your thoughts. You forgot truborn, btw. I think also that the coven detachment will prove winners and be in most tournament lists. For instance you can get two squads of fearless grots - no LD worries. You can outflank taloi. Lots of goodies there. As for certain FoC slots being overcrowded - well that is where coven detachments could help too.

J and I were mulling over an archtype today - null deployment much like Betray's list here:

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t10227-betray-s-first-7e-list-1850-null-deployment-option

The idea is archom and haemonculus w/ wwp and venoms for the fear bomb backed up by allied Legion ...

De Primary Realspace Raiders

Archon; Shadowfield; Huskblade; Soultrap; Archangel of Pain; Raider; Disintegratpr; Aether Sails 210
Haemonculus; Armour of Misery 95

3 Mandrakes 36
2x 9 Mandrakes 216

2x Kabalite Warriors; Venom; Dual Splinter Cannons 210

2x Razorwings; 2 Dark lances 280

2 Talos; TL Splinter Cannon; Ichor Injectors; Cronos; Spitit Vortex  370

Fortification

Imperial Bastion; Comms Relay; Void Shield 120

Legion of the Damned Detachment

2x 5 Legion of the Damned;  Meltagun;, Multi-melta; Combi-melta  310

very simple archtype ... very difficult to defend against
An option that is overlooked is the fear bomb - one archon and- one haemie with archangel of pain   and armour of misery plus one farseer w/  psychic shriek - this could crush certain lists. Adding in Eldar will allow abominations on the table top ( like the old invisible beaststar) so I'm not gung ho on going that route though for top tournaments expect to see some lists planning on abuse in many forms with combos and wwps, etc.

And finally I added very weird idea - allied legion of the damned ...

This unit ignores cover and has the tools to destroy wave serpents with ease. Kit them out to handle hat we lack in pure DE. They are relentless, they re-roll their deep-strike scatter, and they ignore cover and they have 3+ inv. In a list already built for null deployment - well what do we lose?

_________________
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Paper is overpowered. Scissors is fine.
Signed,
Rock.


Last edited by egorey on Sun Oct 12 2014, 15:46; edited 11 times in total
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 23:39

3 Razorwings is powerful anti-horde action and at least half way decent anti-air. I am generally not a fan of Lances, but I suppose if you are going to the skies, there are worse choices.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 00:11

Attempt to construct a new DelDar deathstar no 327

10 Wraithguard
Archon w/WWP, Blaster, Shadowfield
Irrilyth
Spiritseers

It lands on the battlefield and probably slags something utterly. Possibly two somethings, Irrilyth has Split Fire after all. The Spiritseers get Invisibility, which makes shooting the unit difficult. Irrilyth has hit and run so it can't be tied down. Sure, it lacks pace. But as long as it has Invisibility and a Shadow Field it's very resilient and it will keep pumping that firepower out. Could probably also do the Fear Bomb - bit of luck you could even use it for summoning Daemons - hell, go mad, take Sanctic, pray for Gate to keep mobile... or Hammerhand to turn the WG into vehicle killers on the charge... Lots of possible tools if you shove a million psykers into a unit, drop it into enemy territory, and make it immortal.

Possibly.


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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 00:29

Very nice combo Blade - kudos.

Having only had three games with new DE I cannot really say I find them impressive. You have essentially two choices - use a lot of reserves and try to roll a flank aggresively or deploy and try to roll a flank aggressively. There are some very tough match ups out there. My budy's Tau, I now will pick me apart - he will use an ethereal w/ fire warriors, a buff commader w/ missiles and markers , a few tetras, some pathfinders, a riptide and broadsides. Depending on points a few suits - (dual CAD - farsight and regular Tau). He sometime puts the commander with Aun'Va - impossible to kill w/ shield drones and commander tanking.

I already know that Necrons are a b###ch to beat with my DE. And I suspect that I'll have problems with Eldar and maybe FMC spawn lists.

So it begs the question - what top tier armies are we good against? I think we really do need to play a few mind games and use a few unusual lists that opponents cannot really prepare for and then hope we get our FNP rolls and our strong assaults off. I feel that the court, incubi, grots and beasts will be essential for most of our games. Talos will help too. Our paper warriors and skimmers need support - we have to apply early pressure or we will lose. I'm not talking ravagers and venoms firing either - I'm talking assault. I know this flies in the face of the above list - it has no real hammer unit except the three Taloi which are slow. But those Taloi can deploy in the bastion and get up table relatively fast. Also realspace - if there is night fighting will help me.

My two cents for what it is worth.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 19:37

That deathstar looks really good. I am going to mention it to my Iyanden friend.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 20:46

Figured I'd throw my hat into the ring!
Succubus+ armor of misery+ glaive+ wwp= 145
8 Grotz+2 lg+ aberration+SH= 330
5 incubi+ Klavix+ raider+ SN= 180
5 warriors+ venom+ cannon= 105
5 warriors+ venom+ cannon= 105
5 warriors+ venom+ cannon= 105
5 scourges +4 Haywire blasters= 120
5 scourges +4 Haywire blasters= 120
5 scourges +4 Haywire blasters= 120
Dark artisan formation+ spirit probe+ Injector+ wwp= 360
Allied Eldar detachment
Autarch+banshee mask+ soulshrive= 105
3 WRJ= 52

1847
Autarch is for reserve manipulation and beat sticking and goes with the incubi.
Thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 01:48

The only problem with your list Bippity is that it uses more than one ally/detachment - I know it is legal but non-the -less more than a few tournaments do not allow it. Otherwise nice.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 03:04

egorey wrote:
The only problem with your list Bippity is that it uses more than one ally/detachment - I know it is legal but non-the -less more than a few tournaments do not allow it. Otherwise nice.

guess I could switch the dark artisan formation out for a meadusa/ sslyth court bomb... but then would I have enough AT?
Maybe drop it and grab another 2 units of scourges with blaster/ heatlances?
Edit: no! I have it! Swooping hawks! They can wreck parking lots with haywire grenades! And grenade packs make short work of cover campers!
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 04:12

That would work well. You might want to change one squad of scourges to heat lances ( just in case you need to take down teqs). I also think two LG on the Grots are a bit meh now that they cost so much. Any extra points add shredders/blasters to warriors.

Your list is my style, btw. A few solid cc hammers and a lot of spped and flexibility.

Now an idea stolen from Mush ...

Reaver Spam

Haemonculus; Parasitee's Kiss; WWP 115
Succubus; Armour Of Misery; Archite's Glaive; WWP 145
2x 3 Grotesques 210
3 Mandrakes 36
3x 5 Warriors; Shredder; Raider; Dark Lances 330
6x 3 Reavers; Caltrops 378
Voidraven Bomber; Daerk Scythes 160
2 Talos; TL Splinter Cannon; Cronos; Probe 360
Ravager; 2 Dark Lances 125

Mush's idea ... flood the table with MSU units and force your opponent to overkill ... using two wave serpents to take down a 3 man reaver squad - profit. So survive two turns using reserves, BLOS. Then go for it with FNP.

Now Mush was even thinking dual CAD realspace and using 12 - yes !2 - squads of reavers. You start some - reserve others. You can take MSU wyches for troops with realspace benefits. Lots of nifty options with rending caltrops!So his list would be more like this ...

Dual CAD Realspace
Succubus; Armour Of Misery; Archite's Glaive; WWP 145
Heamnoculus; Archangel of Pain 95
3 Incubi: Klaivex; Raider; Venom; Dual SC 135
2x 5 Warriors; (one w/ shredder); Venom; Dual SC 215
10 x 3 Reavers; Heat Lance; Caltrops 730
2x 1 Razorwing; Dark Lances 280
2x 1 Ravager; Dark Lances 250

Mush reminded me of an interesting point - bikes can never be pinned. This list wills tart some bikes in reserve and the incubi in reserve. The extra bike squads can trickle in.

and finally the lols list with MSU reavers - you knew it was coming:  

Dual CAD Real Space Raiders

4x  1 Lhamaean, Venom Dual Splinter Cannons  300

5 Mandrakes 60

12x 5 Warriors, Blaster 660

6x 3 Reaver Jetbikes, Caltrops, Heat Lance 438
6x 1 Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons 390

So thirty-four units flooding the table. Twenty splinter cannons, twelve blasters, six heat lances and some baleblast for lols.  Keep a lot of units in reserve and just let them trickle in and spread out. Obviously you will multi-assault - wh0 cares about overwatch, eh.

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Last edited by egorey on Thu Oct 16 2014, 00:05; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 19:27

Both of those are nice lists Egory. Personally I haven't come up with a list quite yet, i'm still formulating ideas.

MSU reavers give you a lot of scoring/denial power in maelstrom missions thanks to their mobility. They are mobile and cheap enough to be sacrificially used as blockers and obstructions (blocking the movement of Imperial Knights for example. They also create threat saturation as they are dangerous enough with caltrops and heatlances/blasters not to be ignored (if you ignore them they don't need to jink and fire at full BS). As a result they can draw fire away from the rest of your army. Finally because of their mobility, caltrops and heatlance/blaster even a single reaver can be a threat.

How does this dynamic affect serpent spam?

Serpents need to shoot the reavers, as they can destroy the serpents in assault with caltrops. However, if the serpents shoot the reavers they drop their shields leaving themselves vulnerable to AP1-2 weapons (your raiders/ravagers/razorwings). Jink needs to be declared when a shot hits, before you know whether it has penetrated or not. Also any penetrating hit could cause problems (weapon destroyed, stunned and immobalised are all problems for serpents. Does the serpent player take his chance from a single heatlance/blaster shot and not jink? Or does he play safe and jink? If he jinks, he is BS1 next turn significantly reducing his damage against the reavers (about 0.66 wounds per serpent against reavers with FNP 5+). Combine this with the fact that MSU reavers can easily position themselves at multiple angles, meaning if the serpents are to shoot the reavers with their shields they will need to turn to face them, potentially exposing their rear armour to other reavers and lances in the dark eldar army.

All of this forces a huge amount of cognitive strain on your opponent, there are so many factors and so many possible responses to the barrage of questions that you are asking him with all these reavers. After all the reavers only make up half the dark eldar army, which he hasn't even had time to think about!

I'm sure this will take a lot of practice to get to grips with but i'm hopeful. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 20:18

Mush... that is a thing of beauty... just the constipated look on you opponent's face as he tries to decide if he wants to shoot an entire serpent's worth of Dakka at one of 12 63 point units, any of which can wreck his transport, is hilarious! That's only 575 points too... 695 if you strap on blasters/ heatlances...
I think you just made reaver sales skyrocket again! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 20:28

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
Mush... that is a thing of beauty...

Thanks. Caltrops are a must, heatlances/blasters I will have to experiment with. The hard part is working out what to fill the rest of the list with!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 20:33

Mushkilla wrote:
Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
Mush... that is a thing of beauty...

Thanks. Caltrops are a must, heatlances/blasters I will have to experiment with. The hard part is working out what to fill the rest of the list with!
Have you mentioned this on the killing waveserpents page in tactics? If not you should! Fantastic idea and goes right along with Thor's point about msu and threat saturation.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 20:42

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
Mushkilla wrote:
Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
Mush... that is a thing of beauty...

Thanks. Caltrops are a must, heatlances/blasters I will have to experiment with. The hard part is working out what to fill the rest of the list with!
Have you mentioned this on the killing waveserpents page in tactics? If not you should! Fantastic idea and goes right along with Thor's point about msu and threat saturation.

No, the idea is not mature enough. I want to get some games in first.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 15:54

Thinking outside box using Eldar allies:


So wanderingblade presented this above with explanation ...


10 Wraithguard
Archon w/WWP, Blaster, Shadowfield
Irrilyth
Spiritseers

This is pretty nasty for 327 points. You have a slew of options - including split fire which I use below - psychic buffs or psychic aggression. But there are a few other really good combos so lets look at a few.


Archon; Shadowfield; Blaster WWP
Muagan Ra
Vaul's Wrath Support Battery; 3 D-Cannons

Well here is a nasty little unit with Str10 blasts that is relentless, has spill fire and tanks. You do not want to assault as Maugan Ra will eat you alive. You can true shooting it but bit HQs tank like champs.

You like reavers right. So do I.

Autarch; Banshee Mask; Fusion Gun; Laaser Lance; Jetbike
6 Reavers; 2 Caltrops; Heat Lance

So this squad is 246 points but does it ever have punch. HoW - again gets around invisibility, hit and run, and good ink saves. So a St 6 AP2, a St 8 AP2, 4 Str 4 rending HoW, 2D6 St6 rending, 5 ST 6 attacks (autarch) and you are striking first -banshee mask. It goes on an on. Not a lot will survive this onslaught. And you get a +1 to your reserves.

And finally:

Archon Huskblade, Blaster, Shadowfield,  Soul Trap w/ WWP
Autarch, Fusion Gun, Power Weapon, Banshee Mask
7 Harlequins; & Kisses; @ Fusion Guns

So it is 454 points but it has a tanking HQ, 3 fusion guns, a blaster and a ton of assault ... good luck handling it

Now you could balls to the wall and take:

Baharroth
Archon Huskblade, Blaster, Shadowfield,  Soul Trap w/ WWP
3 Grotesques

Well now Baharroth is interesting. Here we are spending 470 points but we get a two tanking characters, hit and run, fearless, haywire grenades some dakka. We also get blind and grenades and Bahroth can any point detach and drop elsewhere. This I find to be an interesting combo.

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Last edited by egorey on Wed Oct 15 2014, 16:06; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 17:16

I like the idea of MSU reavers but ...realspace detachment can not take fortication, so no command relay.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 18:52

undeadcatd wrote:
I like the idea of MSU reavers but ...realspace detachment can not take fortication, so no command relay.
Wow nice catch. I would think this is an oversight except the LoW slot is missing as well, while apparently the other latest detachments (GK, SW etc) all have that option. Weird.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 18:53

So I never noticed that the fortification and LoW slot were specific to a CAD...especially that fortification slot! Good call undeadcatd!

Can the vauls support battery actually move? I thought it was artillery...kind of makes it pretty meh with those characters.


So I bought the Covens supplement and I'm excited about several options in there for sure. I probably won't be making 'tournament legal' lists though it could be morphed easily enough away from the formations I plan on using. I must also say that he relics in the coven supplement are heads over heels better than the main DE book. If you plan on using coven and haemies in your army, you should really investigate the coven book!

Lots of the relics make you more durable or a monster in a fight. For example there is the vexator mask that makes your opponent -5 initiative in a challenge against your haemie...pretty sweet though not super useful but at least is a low cost of 2 melta bombs. Another relic gives you IWND (4+) and can only be wounded by poison on a role of a 6+. Not too shabby. My real favorite though is The Nightmare Doll...I love it from a visual standpoint (need to craft a doll of somesort haha) and its rule. It adds 1 to any FNP rolls he makes AND it automatically negates the first wound with ID he suffers though it breaks the doll. It's a one time freebie that allows you to stay in the fight which is pretty nice, costed at 7 melta bombs so not overly terrible. Of course if you are going to be dumping points into a haemie like this you probably are going to dump more to make him super spiffy. This is tricky as there is no way to make him as hardy as you used to be able to. However, proper placement of him in a squad of say grots or the Talos/Cronos/Haemie combo formation allows him to stay pretty safe!

Stay tuned as I'm working on the next incarnation of what I want to try first for my DE!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 21:25

I never noticed the lack of fortification for the realspace detachment. That is a bit of a let down. Leaves the bikes more exposed turn one and requires a bit more thought deploying - still quite doable but not quite as strong turn two . On another note I fielded my Talos list in preparation for the day that I sell them. I wanted a good last hurrah. It is Thanksgiving here so I had my turkey lucnch and then a game against Tau.

Succubus; Archite's Glaive; Blast Pistol; Haywire

3 Grots; Raider; Disentegrator; Aethersails; Nightshields
7 Ssylth; 2 Medusae; Raider; Disentegrator; Splihter Racks; Nightshields

2x 5 Kabalite Warriors; Shredder; Raider; Dark Lance

2x Razorwing Jetfightters; 2 Dark Lances
6 Reavers; 2 Caltrops; Heat Lance

Detachment
5x Talos; Chainflails (scouting)

The talos scouted - I did not outflank. Regardless by turn three they were eating through anything on the ground in range. Between Splinter fire and I had FIVE, and assault, which is wicked I threatened his whole back deployment - broadsides and hammerhead.

The razorwings actually survived a few turns as I went after his broadsides (they had interceptor). The reavers also did a little damage bfore they were taken out by SMS. Ignore cover broadsides hurt reavers big time. His Crisis presented more problems but the razors were actually quite efective once his broadsides were getting pounded - no more intercept huzzah.

Overall it was a good game. I did not need to jink all that badly - so the game went fairly well and ended in a draw. The disentegrators were pretty good until the raiders went down. My ssylth and talos took a lot of dakka - the major threats in his eye. I lost three talos by game's end and I lost half the ssylth squad.

The succubus I kept with the grots who struggled to close with crisis - of course. The list appears mobile but it is not terribly hard to knock out four transports for Tau and then the list becomes a lot slower, lol. He went fter the bikes and transports until he realized that those Taloi were going to hurt him badly.

I think the new coidex has some legs. It is not what I wanted to see but the few good units are improved - scouting talos in squads and reavers and grots. You just have to avoid the chaff.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 14 2014, 03:15

Ok so here is the first look I'm looking at exploring for my own personal use. I have most of the prereqs for it already or they are on their way. The idea is a large double prong coven bomb that takes center stages and annihilates the enemy by sheer brutality.


Quote :

Formation: Dark Artisan
-Haemie (warlord)-nighmare doll, wwp, scissorhand
-Talos-ichor and SC
-Cronos-spirit Siphon

Formation: Grotesquerie
-Urien
-3 man grot squad
-5 man grot squad

CAD: Dark Eldar
-Archon-huskblade, shadowfield, wwp

-5 man warrior- blaster
*Venom-dual SC
-5 man warrior- blaster
*Venom-dual SC

Razorwing
5x Scourges-4 heat lances
5x Scourges- 4 heat lances

Voidraven (no missiles)


Fortification:
-Bastion-comms relay

Its not necessarily 'tourny legal' but it looks like fun to me!

The idea is to stick the 3 grots in the bastion and maybe the venoms as well to ensure I can't be tabled T1. T2 if everything goes to plan then the 5 grots with Urien and Archon and the talos/cronos/haemie will drop in near each other in order to buff the crap out of each other with +2 PfP turns and 4+ FNP. Ultimately this means that my grots have IWND, fear, and fearless the turn they arrive ontop of T5, 3W and 4+ FNP plus some randomly generate bonus...simply amazing.

Archon will tank wounds like a boss (he's expendable for the initial drop). Because of this I may switch him to carry a blaster so he can do something upon dropping at least. Scourges support with AT duty and the razorwing and voidraven do what they are meant to do (AI and AT respectively).

This list is boom or bust and would certainly be annihilated against IK armies due to stomp and D weapons. However, this looks like a bunch of fun and may be able to fight against 1-2 IK with a bunch of luck!


I'm also working on a more 'conventional' balanced DE list to compare when we focus on FA and the usual goodies DE employs in a more balanced fashion.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 39 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 14:22


So I'm going to relist the build I think has future as an archtype for DE:

Dual CAD Real Space Raiders

4x 1 Lhamaean, Venom Dual Splinter Cannons 300

4 Mandrakes 48

12x 5 Warriors, Blaster 660

3 Reavers, Caltrop, Heat Lance, Arena Champion 83
5x 3 Reaver Jetbikes, Caltrops, Heat Lance 365
6x 1 Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons 390

So thirty-three units flooding the table and around 80 models. Twenty splinter cannons, twelve blasters, six heat lances and some baleblast for lols. Keep a lot of units in reserve and just let them trickle in and spread out. Obviously you will multi-assault - wh0 cares about overwatch, eh.

Note - as of now the lhamaean HQs are perfectly legal. If they are FaQed just use two archons, balster, haywire insttead. You lose two Venoms but meh.

You need the arena champion to have a warlord and get your trait. He starts in reserve.

Go ahead and try to proritize this list, lol. Good luck. By tuen three four I have FNP nad can camp objectives all over the table. Yes, no ObSec - I'll deal with that as realspace gives me better initial saves and fantastic MSU FA slots.


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