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 A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 07 2014, 21:38

I agree the ancient is no urien but it is a middle ground if you want to keep what you got and add the crucible.

I think I will revisit the court later tonight to see what I'm missing. Been a long time since I looked at them and now that I use eldar Phoenix lords so heavily things may have changed.

On aethersails I consider them the same as unorthodoxy.. that is as pseudo night shields (and in conjunction with). One thing that does hurt them though is fast armies. Sitting further back and boosting for the next turn assault can invite them to wrap your raider and destroy the contents by null deploy. Say as opposed to move disembark and assault the same turn. This is also a shout out to torment GLs, although they won't prevent them from accomplishing it through shooting plus wrap but it does make them potentially commit more.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 07 2014, 21:52

Unorthodoxy wrote:
Count Adhemar:  What can I say?  You dont understand why I'd be within 6" before knowing if the hull is going to be popped?  eh...  Well let me explain (the obvious).  The Movement happens before the shooting phase.  Thats why.  Need more explanation?  Ok.  what that means is I do not WANT to be any farther than necessary from it BECAUSE I plan to CHARGE the people inside and as you know (I assume?), if I am MORE than 6" away I am giving away huge chunks of probability of making the charge.  No idea why this had to be explained.

Ignoring the attempt at condescension, what I and others are struggling to understand is why you think that being assaulted and shot at by the enemy is a bad thing but are deliberately moving your unit into a position where that is going to happen ~92% of the time, and paying extra points for the privilege. Quite simply, if your plan relies on having a blast pistol explode a vehicle with 2 or more HP remaining in order that you can get at what is inside then you need to find a better plan.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 07 2014, 21:59

Brom wrote:
I agree the ancient is no urien but it is a middle ground if you want to keep what you got and add the crucible.

I think I will revisit the court later tonight to see what I'm missing. Been a long time since I looked at them and now that I use eldar Phoenix lords so heavily things may have changed.

On aethersails I consider them the same as unorthodoxy.. that is as pseudo night shields (and in conjunction with). One thing that does hurt them though is fast armies. Sitting further back and boosting for the next turn assault can invite them to wrap your raider and destroy the contents by null deploy. Say as opposed to move  disembark and assault the same turn. This is also a shout out to torment GLs, although they won't prevent them from accomplishing it through shooting plus wrap but it does make them potentially commit more.

Yeah that would do it (the crucible I mean). Thats why i like the idea. It saves my jet and gives me the Crucible and I dont have to use points on tiny Wrack Squads (which, lets face it, become glorified paper weights that spend their game hiding and skulking). I know they may well be the reason why i win if the enemy cant make the backfrield but...


Yes Null deploying is a GREAt defense against over aggression. If you get TOO aggressive, not only might you get wrapped, but you also can be completely out of position against outflankers and Deep Strikers.

But thats the genius here. You dont have to commit. Theres enough shooting at enough range that if they null deploy, you hold ground and position to minimize the ability of those kinds of troops to isolate you. For example (since that sounds too vague to me also): if they null deploy, they will try to plink the Raiders. The raiders are too far except for 48"weapons. If the enemy goes first, counting on his reserved getting the jump, that means you know hes null deploying and how much and where. Staying out of range turn one with our kind of speed is no great sacrifice. We hold position, overwhelm the outflankers/Deep Strikers (after they blast us) and then close for the kill. We can ring the assault transports to give them only leser targets to kill and lets face it, the "lesser" targets sure do a lot of damage inside OR outside their trransports. In fact you may just deploy, depending on ranges, outside the transports in round 2 to avoid pinning and explosions, then get back in.There are options when you have both speed, hitting power and range.

Null deployment does one other cool thing though: it keeps the Assaulters from coming EARLIER in the game. Games arent unlimited in length so the longer the guy with assault troops WAITS, the less efective he is. So if you are playing an impatient General, you might catch him anyways! Temperament of the enemy matters.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 07 2014, 22:32

Count Adhemar wrote:
Unorthodoxy wrote:
Count Adhemar:  What can I say?  You dont understand why I'd be within 6" before knowing if the hull is going to be popped?  eh...  Well let me explain (the obvious).  The Movement happens before the shooting phase.  Thats why.  Need more explanation?  Ok.  what that means is I do not WANT to be any farther than necessary from it BECAUSE I plan to CHARGE the people inside and as you know (I assume?), if I am MORE than 6" away I am giving away huge chunks of probability of making the charge.  No idea why this had to be explained.

Ignoring the attempt at condescension, what I and others are struggling to understand is why you think that being assaulted and shot at by the enemy is a bad thing but are deliberately moving your unit into a position where that is going to happen ~92% of the time, and paying extra points for the privilege. Quite simply, if your plan relies on having a blast pistol explode a vehicle with 2 or more HP remaining in order that you can get at what is inside then you need to find a better plan.
 
Hoboy.
 
Here's the deal...  I don't know why you think this way.  So I just don't know what to say.  Ive laid it out.  We are talking bout an army that sets up for UP TO THREE 2nd Round charges (all but assuredly), and up to NINE if the field lent itself to that (unlikely but we actually CAN do this).  Before the charge, we must bust any transports we plan to approach that are occupied (not worried about other ones because they will be multicharged as likely as not).  MUST.  And that's not a bad thing because we actually CAN do it.
 
So...  there are two rounds of Trueborn fire plus a round of Haywire with it to accomplish it, along with Disintegrator fire for one round and then...The Pistol+Crucible.
 
As we are setting up three charges (in worst of cases) and up to nine, our number ONE reason for failure will be a Hull in the way of the Squishy insides.  That could cost us something important.  We know that weakness is there.  Option one:  do something about it.  Option two:  Dont.
 
Thus the pistol.
 
And thats it.  It isn't any more complicated than that.  Yet, here we are.  Explaining Warhammer 40K 101.  So ok.  Lets tear this apart some more.
 
This 8% thing is an illusion.  it's wrong.  And because its wrong I wish you'd stop using it as some magic wand to "dispel arguments".  I think you know the chances of missing with the grenade or pistol is laughably small.  So do the math hammering that you want to, but I'm MORE than comfortable assuming i will hit with it.  So comfortable.  Bout 94+% chance of hitting or some crazy number.  So WHEN I hit...  Two things can be true.  One is that the target is immobilized.  If immobilized then a 5 or a 6 will finish it even with two Hull points.  Put another way, since I am damn comfortable saying I'll hit, there's really a 33% chance i blow it to kingdom come without having to fire ANYONE ELSE into it (as it would have been immobilized in round 1 and I would of course fire my pistol first in round 2).  Thats not 8%.  Im sorry.  It's not.  So stop saying it.  if its open topped that chance goes all the way to 50%!!!
 
Let's assume that its not immobilized, still has 2 hull points.  Im going to hit.  Math hammer it if you want to but thats going to happen; and if it doesnt well thats war for ya.  Its a dice game.  When I hit, there is a 17% chance of killing both hull points and a MUCH smaller chance of the Haywire Grenade doing it.  So we know that with JUST the grenade, I'm lost.  I'll now have to commit HUNDREDS of points from other units to the task, which is expensive and not economical.  I dont want to do it if I dont have to.  The Pistol has about a 17% chance of killing the two hull points.  With a pistol Im guaranteed to spend 15 points "too much" (in your estimation).  If i end up having to use another unit, Im 100% guaranteed to spend hundreds of points doing what 15 points could have done.  And if the 15 points results in a Pen, which it will 50% of the time when I hit, it can stun the people inside making it unnecesary for me to worry about their response.  Then I can STILL not commit other units to killing that hull (or I can commit more and kill it if Im super keen about the issue).

Without the pistol, Zero chance. Zero chance will never be higher than 8% anyways.
 
This is ECONOMICS applied to Warhammer.  Resource management.  You don't want to expend MORE points to handle a bad situation.  And given that you're in the situation, whining about it does you no good and theory hammeering that you "should or shouldn't" get in that situation is also moot.  The fact is, you're here.  You must deal with it.  Or you must accept consequences.
 
It's 15 points that can save me a LOT of points both offensively (not committing a second unit) and defensively (not taking damage from the resultant full BS shooting the enemy will level against me on their turn).  It makes SENSE.  To me.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 00:07


So let us agree here that experiences can differ. We have this out before. We proved that swooping hawks trump DE vehicles ... I can show that scourges trump wave serpents. It is all a mtter of how you field and deploy and advance. A pistol is not meant to be THE ANSWER - it is just another tool in the arsenal. I personally use them often enough.

Now I do not use the court. It is a very tricky unit to use. That does not mean it is FAIL though. I know how J uses it. It is again a tool in the arsenal and useful as AT. Yes, AT. The last time I fielded a beastpack I had a clawed fiend - am I playing it wrong? Came in very handy in my game.

If you look at this thread it is about trying out different units and configurations that sometimes seem a little off but on inspection work well when synergized into a list. Just my 2 cents though. No one really pays attention to a duck.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 00:29

As Egorey says, different units have their places for different roles in different people's armies, and this thread is a great way to display all the possible combinations. You have been asked by a mod to keep things calm, we don't want any aggression in our lovely city.

Also, keep in mind that double-posting is allowed for new content, such as lists and unit analyses.

I think it's best if we agree to do things different ways, have different views of the game and leave it at that.

Cheers - Cavash

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 03:09

Unorthodoxy wrote:
 The Pistol has about a 17% chance of killing the two hull points.

Just for clarity sake, I'm going to point out that this is NOT the case.

You have to HIT, which is about 90ish % to do so, but sure, we'll give you 100%, as you say.
But then you STILL have to penetrate BEFORE you get that 17% chance. So, if we go with your own math and say you have a 50% chance to penetrate, then this is the formula:

50% * 17% = 0.5 * 0.17

0.5*0.17 = 0.085

0.085 = 8.5% (And that's with giving you the "Hit" for free.)
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 05:30

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Unorthodoxy wrote:
 The Pistol has about a 17% chance of killing the two hull points.

Just for clarity sake, I'm going to point out that this is NOT the case.

You have to HIT, which is about 90ish % to do so, but sure, we'll give you 100%, as you say.
But then you STILL have to penetrate BEFORE you get that 17% chance. So, if we go with your own math and say you have a 50% chance to penetrate, then this is the formula:

50% * 17% = 0.5 * 0.17

0.5*0.17 = 0.085

0.085 = 8.5% (And that's with giving you the "Hit" for free.)

Battle reports will be forthcoming! Until then.




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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 07:15

Just took a long look at the rules for Fuegan - he cannot FNP and then get stronger. Even though the wound is unsaved unquenchable resolve happens at the 'end' of the phase where the woind is now treated as if it never occurred.

Unquenchable Resolve, p 59 Eldar Codex: "At the end of any phase in which Fuegan suffers one or more unsaved Wounds, his Strength and Attacks increase by 1 for each unsaved Wound suffered. These characteristic bonuses last for the rest of the game."

Feel No Pain, glossary 7th Edition Rulebook: "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state that ‘no saves of any kind are allowed’, for example those inflicted by Perils of the Warp). Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule. Roll a D6 each time an unsaved Wound is suffered. On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted – treat it as having been saved."

Now he is still a very good charater. Take a few wounds before LoS and FNP and he should be okay and he does have a split fire melta. He can two wounds and be S7 (crushing blow) T6 with EW, a 2+ save and FNP.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 09:09

Unorthodoxy wrote:
This 8% thing is an illusion.  it's wrong.  And because its wrong I wish you'd stop using it as some magic wand to "dispel arguments".

You're right. It is wrong. It's actually 4.94% for AV12 or higher, 7.4% for AV11 and only goes up above 8% for AV10 (9.88%).

As for the rest of the argument, out of respect for the thread I'll just agree to disagree and wish you luck with your list.

@Egorey - good catch on the FNP thing. Totally agree that it doesn't work. Fuegan is still good but I have a huge problem with all the Phoenix Lords and that is that they're all at least 50 points too expensive.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 14:42


An interesting chat conversation. I was asked wether summoning daemons with Eldar is a good idea. We are now talking about multiple CAD - should have a few warlocks as well so we get four farseers and a few expendable warlocks ... so lets look at it

Farseers and Warlocks are both excellent in generating warp charge and a dual CAD with Farseers and Warlocks will generate a good number of charges. Some of the best powers are also 2 WC so you need to roll 4-5 die for over a 75% chance of success. So they are efficient and have flexibility. With a lot of very strong powers and tables available to them (Divination, Telepathy, Fate, Battle, Daemonology) and large numbers of psychic power rolls even compared to the other psychic armies, Eldar can be all but assured of getting some of the the powers they need in a given game and have access to many different choices. Combined with the ability to shrug off most Perils results (via Ghosthelm) and expendable psykers to throw away on dangerous powers as well as limited rerolls, Eldar have a strong ability to customize their game plan to the enemy and then enact it with surprising flexibility and reliability.

Now we all no that the Psychic gets an extra power by rolling on a single table. So that must play into the calculations as well. What do Eldar generally need. Summoning Daemons to combat gunlines or vortex and cleansing flame from sanctid on fast durable platforms backed up by invisibility and fortune? How do we want to roll? Lets discuss how you roll against various armies ... Tau, Nids, CSM, Daemons, Centstar, IG gunline? We get to choose after we know what we are facing so we really should be prepared and think about what we will want to take. It also depends on what we get on our first rolls - this determines what we might want to roll for on subsequent psykers.

Begin the analysis ...

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 14:49

Something to remember on the Perils is that only Farseers get Ghosthelms and that Spiritseers and Warlocks are only Ld 9 and 8 respectively. So with the increased risk of perils on any double and a reduced chance of passing the subsequent Ld test I would limit the actual casting of powers to Farseers where possible.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 20:33

So I posted a list asking why I thought CSM were still a viable force. I got no answers. The prevalent
'net wisdom' is that it cannot handle the better lists out there. Is that true? Lets examine this. Can CSM take on Deldar?

Juggy Lord, MoK, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil, VotlW 175
Huron Blackheart 160

Mutilator, MoT 63

2x 10 Chaos Cultists, Flamer 110
10 CSM, MoK, Icon of Wrath, Champion, Flamer, Meltagun, Power Axe, Rhino, Dirge Caster  225

5 Chaos Spawn, MoN 180

2x Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils 270
3 Obliterators,  MoN 228

Lord of Change, Mst Lvl 3, 2 Grater Rewards 295
16 Deamonetttes 144

Here is the thing - against wave serpents, ravagers with dissies what works is divination, rending and deep strike. Wks can be handled or tied up by the spawn star. The LoC can vector strike a few things. Oblits infiltrating or DSing work. 'Fiends are very fast and kill things dead. You do not want Huron and CSMs in your face early either infiltrating across the table. You need speed and you need tricks. CSM has both.

At feast of blades a CSM list with CSM in rhinos, Jump Lord and Raptors, Heldrake, Oblits and Forgefiend and Havics beat two Eldar armies. Is that luck?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 20:55

There is always luck involved in a dice game. But the reality is, the better general wins more often than he loses, list be damned. I have played the most "controversial" lists (by all accounts, not including my own) and beaten the toughest Flying Daemon Circus lists, the Belakors of the world, Room Sweeper lists when that was a thing, Blood angels when that was a thing and the list goes on. Lists don't win. They just make it possible. So a Chaos guy taking out two Eldar lists was probably a little more than luck.

As for this list: it's really fast moving, and has deployment shenanigans. It's weaknes is that it has no mobile terrain (Rhinos) to hide the fairly valuable Maulerfiends (two of them is a load though if you cant stop them!!!). They are your fastest ground pounders and they are really exposed. Outside of that concern I like the idea of the list. 3 units in your face, 2 units coming on from the ether which squeezes the deployment and makes frontal attacks more effective, Deep Strikers when necessary to distract (might suggest splitting those up). It definitely will not be a welcome sight to anyone with an assault based army. This would NOT be an ideal matchup for my own Dark Eldar for sure, though my list DOES have enough balance that I think I could adjust to a shooting barrage instead of rushing the gates of the castle right away.

Still i really like the deployment options which is what makes the force stronger thanks to Huron. Plus Huron adds a Warp charge for the Lord of Change to use so there's that.

I like it. Little nervous about the lack of a Rhino turn one. But I think it would play real well. At tournies, the immensity of Wave Spam firepower would overcome the two Maulerfiends though unless you get them some manner of cover.




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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 08 2014, 22:44


No doubt it is more than just the list you are playing. You need to understand the fundamentals of the game. Just paste and copying lists from the 'net' and thinking you can now succeed does not cut it at all. The trick is as you say ... understanding which weaknesses to mitigate, understanding which units need preserving ( forewarning/prescience/scrier's gaze can become factors in this list). Or do we want Change? Where are the greatest benefits.

You cannot split up the Oblits ... no extra slots. You can add Rhinos and they can infiltrate as well. But I'm not a fan of that approach. It is a tricky list. If the Maulerfiernds are targeted you just have to deal with it and know that the other units are now taking less dakka. You will have to advance them seeking cover and that is why two are so necessary. Walkers like Fiends are hard to use in today's meta but 12/12/10 3 HP is not bad. I also love the cumulative effect of the Tendrils. I would have loved room for Raptors but points just were not there for it.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 09 2014, 09:29

CAN you squeeze a rhino in?

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Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 09 2014, 11:23

Absolutely - the Berserkers can be dropped for CSM and take a rhino ... they just do not deploy in it. A decent sized squad is still pretty good infiltrating with Huron. This also frees up enough points to get a DSing Mutie in the list which are very good against some MCs, IKs etc. and excellent AT. They clean up infantry too with their LCs. When DSing Muties as single units I prefer MoT. I'm not overly worried about instant death and Nurgle is fine is you load them in an LR or DS with a termie lord in larger squads. I'm not doing that. At the point cost they are not half bad and in 7ed certainly got better.

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Signed,
Rock.
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 09 2014, 19:55

So... yes on the Rhino then?

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-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 09 2014, 20:27

egorey wrote:
So I posted a list asking why I thought CSM were still a viable force. I got no answers. The prevalent
'net wisdom' is that it cannot handle the better lists out there. Is that true? Lets examine this. Can CSM take on Deldar?

Juggy Lord, MoK, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil, VotlW 175
Huron Blackheart 160

Mutilator, MoT  63

2x 10 Chaos Cultists, Flamer 110
10 CSM, MoK, Icon of Wrath, Champion, Flamer, Meltagun, Power Axe, Rhino, Dirge Caster  225

5 Chaos Spawn, MoN 180

2x Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils 270
3 Obliterators,  MoN 228

Lord of Change, Mst Lvl 3, 2 Grater Rewards 295
16 Deamonetttes 144

Here is the thing - against wave serpents, ravagers with dissies what works is divination, rending and deep strike. Wks can be handled or tied up by the spawn star. The LoC can vector strike a few things. Oblits infiltrating or DSing work. 'Fiends are very fast and kill things dead. You do not want Huron and CSMs in your face early either infiltrating across the table. You need speed and you need tricks. CSM has both.

At feast of blades a CSM list with CSM in rhinos, Jump Lord and Raptors, Heldrake, Oblits and Forgefiend and Havics beat two Eldar armies. Is that luck?
I had typed a response to your earlier question but my interlolz went down and I lost it.

Anyway on CSM as a 'viable' force, I say yes. Can they handle DE? I say yes, although it is uphill.

Now CSM as a competitive force? I say NO. They have tricks but no troops. They are assaults without assault transports. Marines without pods or atsknf or divination. Forced challenges and more. These issues are crippling at the highest level of play.

I will say I agree on berserkers. Much maligned but having delved the dex ad nauseam I feel berserkers are actually one of the better troop selections. But thats not saying much because the cost is so prohibitive. Too bad cause I've played khornate armies since 4th edition WHF. But compare them to incubi. Or against other troops like pagk's or nilla marines or any other mech troop including blood claws now at 12 pts with atsknf rage counter attack. Hello chaos wolves again..
(heres to hoping the rumoured CSM sup coming up will bring khornate open topped rhinos!)

They do have SOME of the tools like spell familiars, t6 fearless tarpits and fire support to add to DoC. Hell they may even be the 'better half' of competitive daemons (due to spell familiars and FMC nerf) but as a stand alone I dont see it. Super heavies, OS spam marines of any flavor, cron av13s and skimmer armies in general. Just too many things CSM doesn't match well against, especially without their dragons. They're extinct in these parts..

"what about the R.O.U.S.?" "Rodents of unusual size? I dont think they exist"..
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 09 2014, 21:08

CSM are competitive though. I am quite surprised to hear people say otherwise. Like all armies they can be built poorly and executed poorly even when built well. But my experience with them has been pretty awesome. tough as nails army that gets there and fast, overwhelms you w target saturation (when built to do it) and it can ablate a LOT of resources with legit close combat threats.

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-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 10 2014, 05:48


Brom - You accurately point out some of the weaknesses of CSM but ignore their strengths. Indeed they have some units thatv fall short of spectualar. But Oblits are one of the best HS slots in the game at the price. Maulerfiends are fantastic. A Juggy Lord and Spawn are quite a decent assault unit. They have arguably one of the cheapest troop units in the game in cultists. SM have none of these. Heldrakes although nerfed a bit are still pretty good. I hear people malign possessed, chosen, warp talons, mutilators, havocs. I've seen these units used well in some lists. Not my to my taste most o them but any unit in the CSM codex CAN be fit seamlessly into your list if you purpose them well.

Now would I play CSM without Daemon allies in a competitive environment? Likely not. That one DP and those deamonetttes shore up the list substantially. I'm not sure you want to play DE without Eldar allies either for that matter. So yes, CSM with Daemon allies can be a spoiler for a number of lists. Don't underestimate their deployment tricks, dirge casters, and divination DP -these attributes are crucial to winning with CSM.

Unorthodoxy wrote:
CSM are competitive though. I am quite surprised to hear people say otherwise. Like all armies they can be built poorly and executed poorly even when built well.

And this sums it up. Build a proper list and execute your plan and you will be in most games. They certainly can compete.

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Paper is overpowered. Scissors is fine.
Signed,
Rock.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 10 2014, 08:12

I could post my Chaos Marines army list if brom would like to see it/hasn't seen it.

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-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 10 2014, 16:30

Sure would!

And btw I'm not saying CSM are bottom of the barrel, just not top of the pile like the usual offenders. I like their dex personally because it requires thought to build and execute anything.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 10 2014, 18:31

So I managed to squeeze in a game last night. I used the models I had (unfortunately my Huron was not available - long story) but I had a biker champ to substitute for the sorc.

Juggy Lord, MoK, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil, VotLW 175
Chaos Sorcerer, Force Sword, Lvl3, Sigil, Dimensional Key, Bike 180 (telepathy)

Mutilator, MoT 63

2x 10 Chaos Cultists, Flamer 110
10 CSM, MoK, Icon of Wrath, Champion, Flamer, Flamer, Power Axe, Meltabomb, Rhino, Dirge Caster  225

5 Chaos Spawn 150

2x Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils 270
3 Obliterators,  MoN 228

Lord of Change, Lvl 3, 2 Greater Rewards 295 (divination)
17 Deamonetttes 153

This list works on Divination and Telepathy The Sorcerer is the key as invisaible spawn are pretty darn good. How you use your psykers depends on what you get of course.  I started the sorceror with the Lord and the Spawn. He got Psychic Shriek, Invisibility, Terrify and Dominate. All of these power were put to good use. The LoC cast prescience on the Oblits cast and Perfect Timing on them. He also got Scrier's Gaze and the reserves came in reliably. Precognition was good on the LOC, and not terrible on the Sorcerer with a force sword and Lord and Spawn.

I was up against an Eldar list with dual Serpents, some shadoweavers, the usual WK some Warp Spiders. The unit of spawn handled his WK nicely as it happens. The oblits did their job on the Wave Serpents with the help of fast approaching Maulerfirnds and the Mutie was a major distraction all game. I feared it would be an uphill battle but it worked out quite well. I had to survive turn one and two. I lost the rhino giving up first blood and took some casualties early. But once my list started to drop in his midst I just pressed home for a ( to my mind ) easy victory. Now we played crusade - not maelstorm. He had dual farseers but really they did not accomplish that much for him. I was pretty much able to cast most of the powers I needed when I needed to.

Now I will say I think he priritiozed a little poorly. He should certainly have gone after my warp charge generators stronger and worried less about my Fiends, Troops and Oblits early. But the list exerts pressure so fast on so many fronts that he found that difficult to do.  So after the game I still have not changed my mind. CSM has tools. And BTW - comparing MoK CSM with Icon and Berserkers it seems a pretty decent deal TBH.

Now I would have liked to test Huron but I'm not sure that the Sorcerer was any worse in this list.

_________________
Dear GW,
Paper is overpowered. Scissors is fine.
Signed,
Rock.


Last edited by egorey on Mon Aug 11 2014, 03:21; edited 3 times in total
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 31 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 10 2014, 18:38

Brom, here you go:

1996 Night Lords

  1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle)

  1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle)

  1 Obliterator, 76 pts (Mark of Nurgle)

  1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle)

  1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle)

  1 Mutilator, 61 pts (Mark of Nurgle)

  13 Raptors (Mark of Nurgle+ Meltagun x2)
     1 Raptor Champion, (Melta Bombs +Mark of Nurgle+ Power Axe x1)

  13 Raptors (Mark of Nurgle+ Meltagun x2)
     1 Raptor Champion (Melta Bombs +Mark of Nurgle+ Power Axe x1)

  4 Chaos Space Marines
     1 Aspiring Champion
     1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

  4 Chaos Space Marines
     1 Aspiring Champion
     1 Chaos Rhino, (Dirge Caster)

  4 Black Legion Chaos Space Marines (Veterans of the Long War)
     1 Aspiring Champion (Veterans of the Long War)
     1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

  1 Sorcerer (Mark of Nurgle + Melta Bombs + Increase Mastery Level+ Aura of Dark Glory)

  1 Black Legion Chaos Lord (Mark of Nurgle + Blight Grenades + Melta Bombs + Sigil of Corruption + Combi-Meltagun + Gift of Mutation + Veterans of the Long War + Chaos Bike)
     1 The Eye of Night
     1 The Hand of Darkness

  1 Heldrake

_________________
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War


Last edited by Unorthodoxy on Mon Aug 11 2014, 03:47; edited 3 times in total
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