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 A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 05:39

What's the full original list?
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 19:51

Razorwing Jetfighter (Night Shield, 4 Monoscythe Missiles, 2 Disintegrator Cannons, Splinter Cannon)

5 Wracks (Liquifier)

Raider (Disintegrator Cannon, Enhanced Aethersails)

5 Wracks (Liquifier)

Raider (Disintegrator Cannon, Enhanced Aethersails)

5 Kabalite Trueborn (3 Blasters, 2 Splinter Cannons, Haywire Grenades)

Venom (Night Shields, Flicker Field, Additional Splinter Cannon)

5 Kabalite Trueborn (3 Blasters, 2 Splinter Cannons, Haywire Grenades)

Venom (Night Shields, Flicker Field, Additional Splinter Cannon)

4 Grotesques (Liquifier Gun, Aberration has Venom Blade, Master Haemonculus upgrade)

Raider (Disintegrator Cannon, Enhanced Aethersails)

Archon (Plasma Grenades, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Huskblade + Blaster Pistol, Ghost Plate Armor, Clone Field, Soul Trap, Combat Drugs)

Urien Rakarth (Casket of Flensing, Ichor Gauntlet+Close Combat Weapon, Clone Field)

Court of the Archon (3 Sslyth, 4 Ur-Ghul, 2 Medusae, 1 Lhamaean)

Raider (Disintegrator Cannon, Enhanced Aethersails)

BeastMasters (5 Beast Masters with 1x Power Axe, 4 Clawed Fiends, 2 Razorwing Flocks)

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 22:31

Very unusual list. Love the haywire on the trueborn, I've often been running mine that way since 7th dropped. It doesnt always come up but when it does its just damn cool.

I really dont see the trade off benefiting your army but if you were to go that route I would at least want raiders for each of those additional wracks.. somehow or another.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 04 2014, 23:58

Unusual? SURPRISE!

Theres no way they are getting Raiders.  Points are stretched to breaking points here.  And the fact that I HAD to take two more troops made me go maximum cheapage.  Just so happened to need the Haemonculus so it worked out but yeah.  They will reserve and/or take objectives.  They will be very quiet and mouselike.  and maybe gank a point here and there for next to no cost.  That will be their lot in life.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 05 2014, 01:46

Hey everyone! Long time no see! work has been keeping me busy but that hasn't stopped me from getting some games in.

It's funny that White Scars bikes won the BAO because that's what I've been facing lately and damn I just can't win yet (of 2 games so far). Chapter master on a bike with all the goods in white scars with khan is brutal. Add 20 more bikes for troops and splash in thunderfires, flyers, etc and its really mean.

Why? Hard hitting, fast as heck and tough...very tough. That sort of list has tons of options for deployment and how it will proceed to execute. The regular bikes aren't so bad, but dealing with that superstar command squad you may come across is something else entirely. Playing it made me just wish I had 10 venoms! So be aware of that sort of lists abilities it can surprise you!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 05 2014, 01:48

Yeah they are good. Ignores cover Divination and AP weapons will usually do it in. Getting that combo? Another matter. But it does work well.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 05 2014, 01:55

So BetrayTheWorld REALLY doesnt like my Blaster Pistol + Whip. He feels strongly that it should be a Huskblade and says its legal to take one on an Archon.

I say i need the Pistol because: killing armor = charging whats inside and that = good. If its down to one HP, chuck the grenade. If down more, hit it with the pistol.

I dont wanna get caught having to charge a hull, then getting shot to bits by the unimpressed unit that comes out.

I'd rather pop the vehicle, and charge whats inside, avoiding shooting as much as possible.

He likes the Instant Death thing, and I say thats less important than getting caught in the open.

What says the Dark City? Giventhe list above, what is the judgement of the Shadowed streets?

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Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 05 2014, 07:43

I'm just saying, since you already have a haywire grenade, I think the off-chance that you might need the pistol to get a penetrate on a vehicle, for 15 points is basically just wasted points.

For the same points, you could upgrade your whip to a huskblade that gives you AP2 instead of AP3, and instant death instead of lowering enemies strength by half.

The improvement in melee is leaps and bounds better than what you've got, and the loss vs. vehicles isn't really that much, given that you've got HWG(8" range), and the blast pistol is only range 6(You can throw your grenade further!).

The chance that a blast pistol would be able to do something that your HWG couldn't is pretty insignificant.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 05 2014, 17:26

Just cant guarantee a charge on the occupants if it has more than ONE HP remaining. NEED to have a way to end it.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 05 2014, 19:59

Unorthodoxy wrote:
Just cant guarantee a charge on the occupants if it has more than ONE HP remaining.  NEED to have a way to end it.

It's pretty far from guaranteed that you charge the occupants if you have a blast pistol, too. The odds of that pistol blowing up a non-open topped vehicle are dismally low.

97.3 % chance of hitting w/ your reroll.
50% chance to pen on AV11(Gets lower with higher AV).
17% chance to blow the vehicle up if you roll on the pen table.

Mathematically, when you combine these percentages, you have an 8% chance of blowing up an AV11 vehicle on any given round, assuming you're within 6 inches of it.

The haywire grenade has a 3% chance of blowing up the same vehicle, and unlike the pistol, the percent chance doesn't get worse with higher AV.

So personally, I don't think that 5% chance is worth downgrading your melee capability against 2+ armor saves, multiwound ICs, and MCs.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 05 2014, 22:40

You use percentages to make your point.  Allow me to do the same.

What is the percentage chance of killing a hull with 2 hull points, using 1 haywire grenade?  Let me know what you come up with.

We already know I'm using the grenade if its only one hull point.  So, that's not really the issue.  I just need the percentage change that a Haywire will kill a 2 HP model.  Ready?  Go!

Now I want you to compare that chance to the weight of damge that 20 Doom'd, Guided shots will do to my unit if i fail to pop the metal hunk.  Compare the blasters points to the points of Grotesques I will lose.

Then compare that loss to the POSSIBILITY that we can't kill the enemy IC before we are shot that is necessitating your advice on the Huskblade.

Here's what I think you're going to find:  The RISK to my unit of not killing that vehicle is too GREAT to justify not having a potential answer.  

Thats what I think you're going to find.

I think if you wanted to argue this more successfully, I would suggest finding a way to get the Huskblade AND pistol in.  See now that argument would make a lot more sense to me than you trying to convince me how UNscrewed I am by failing to kill the last Hull point. Just saying.  Im pretty screwed if I dont plan for it.  There are only so many elements that you'll want to devote to the task.  

Economically speaking it makes more sense to fire the Blaster Pistol FIRST at the hunk of metal in front of mwe instead of using 2-3 OTHER units to whittle it FIRST.  so from that perspective the greneade makes even less sense because you KNOW if you throw the grenade first it automatically means youre STILL committing at least 2 other units to the tanks destruction.

now WITH the Blaster Pistol, you have a chance not ONLY to kill the tank outright but you actually have a chance to FREE UP two more units!  THAT is HUGE.

I am sorry but I can find a miriad of reasons why I'd rather have that Pistol.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 06 2014, 00:16


I already gave the numbers above. The numbers haven't changed.

If you're willing to put it all on the line for an 8% chance of success as your contingency plan, there is little I can do to sway you.

Personally, I just would never allow my unit to fall into such a dismal position that I'd require such poor odds as a backup. I'd make damn sure the vehicle who's contents they wanted to charge was getting cracked before committing my forces to the area.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 06 2014, 04:23

I agree with BtW. Honestly man the whip and pistol are both pretty bad although the concept is cool. I feel grots NEED the threat of ap2 and preferably combined with ID potential. Otherwise they invite really killy HQs and such to tango.

Personally I've just been using fuegan. The guy has died every game but he's a beast and very fun with 18" split firing meltas. Just got done demolishing an ork army and TGLs stopped 3 charges! 2 by bikers including lord and 1 from megas (well reconsidered multi assaulting). Great upgrade.
Oh and a shout out to the vexator mask. Crap item with a niche. Put it on a haemie with VB and issue/accept a challenge. In range of a TGL theres a chance their beefy lord wont do squat.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 06 2014, 04:49

Brom wrote:

Oh and a shout out to the vexator mask. Crap item with a niche. Put it on a haemie with VB and issue/accept a challenge. In range of a TGL theres a chance their beefy lord wont do squat.

Vexator mask armies could actually be pretty funny if you designed a list for them. Haemy's with soul-traps, masks, and power axes (or huskblades), put into small units of 3 wracks(to absorb overwatch fire).

Then, every dirty trick using eldar allies to lower leadership you can muster.  Upon success, charge your wracks + haemy into enemy unit at -5 leadership, and watch as the haemie actually becomes a combat monster.

If the unit you're charging doesn't have a very good chance of landing anything in overwatch, you may want to just charge the haemy solo, to almost guarantee victory in the ensuing melee/sweeping advance.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 06 2014, 06:27

I never did hear the answer on that.  What was the chance of the Haywire killing two hull points?  Maybe I missed it.  I also missed the answer on what the damage would be like if I failed to pop it and whether you thought that much damage was a good thing or a bad thing.

Also not accounted for in the math:  if the vehicle HAS been immobilized before, a second immobilized result kills it (assuming it started with three Hull Points or had taken a total of 2, one being an immobilized result).  So depending on EXISTING damage, it could look like an even better move. Alternately, immobilizing it with the pistol then means a single immobilized result wins the day (bonus Hull point).

I don't need the pistol to be a cure all.  I need its added assurance.

You're kind of arguing apples to oranges anyways since you can have the assurance of the pistol with the assurance of the Huskblade.  So I say again:  if you really wanna lobby forthe Huskblade, find me something worth giving up in the rest of the force that isnt a Blaster Pistol.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 06 2014, 06:35

Brom wrote:
I agree with BtW. Honestly man the whip and pistol are both pretty bad although the concept is cool. I feel grots NEED the threat of ap2 and preferably combined with ID potential. Otherwise they invite really killy HQs and such to tango.

Personally I've just been using fuegan. The guy has died every game but he's a beast and very fun with 18" split firing meltas. Just got done demolishing an ork army and TGLs stopped 3 charges! 2 by bikers including lord and 1 from megas (well reconsidered multi assaulting). Great upgrade.
Oh and a shout out to the vexator mask. Crap item with a niche. Put it on a haemie with VB and issue/accept a challenge. In range of a TGL theres a chance their beefy lord wont do squat.

AP 2 is a pretty cool feature of the Huskblade.  They FAQ'd that which was nice.

Alright so here's what I'm doing (I changed the list above).  How bout I drop the Night Shields(20) on the two Raiders (the only two that have them) and Haywire Grenade(5).  Add Huskblade(+15).  The soul trap wasnt accounted for so I was off on points.  But this way I get the assurance of popping that last Hull point AND improved ability to affect big things before charging ANd get Instant Death AP 2.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 06 2014, 07:23

Unorthodoxy wrote:
I never did hear the answer on that.  What was the chance of the Haywire killing two hull points?  Maybe I missed it.  I also missed the answer on what the damage would be like if I failed to pop it and whether you thought that much damage was a good thing or a bad thing.

And I think the rest of us missed your answer as to what the hell your unit is doing within 6" of a transport containing something nasty without first having popped said transport with something else. Seriously relying on a blast pistol to pop anything is asking for trouble. Essentially a 15 point, one-shot weapon with a very low chance of doing what you need it to do. I'll pass thanks.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 06 2014, 13:20

Unorthodoxy wrote:
 So I say again:  if you really wanna lobby forthe Huskblade, find me something worth giving up in the rest of the force that isnt a Blaster Pistol.

I don't compute that way. I seek out and try to eliminate the weakest link when freeing up points. I admit I haven't gone through your list with a fine-tooth comb, but I can't imagine finding 15 points worse spent than on a blaster pistol. (Meant as a compliment - You don't normally waste points.)

I wouldn't get rid of the haywire grenade. It's your longest distance, most reliable option to strip a hullpoint. 81% chance to strip a hullpoint from ANY AV. Compared to the 48% chance of the pistol for stripping a hull point from AV12, I think a HWG is a far better option to rely on to pop a vehicle's last hull point.

And the night shields represent potentially saving a transport for a round, which has better firepower than the blast pistol. So, while I wouldn't personally do that, it's ultimately up to you.

But I WOULD try to find a way to keep the soul trap.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 06 2014, 14:13

If you're looking for points to trim I'd start with losing the entire Court of the Archon.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 06 2014, 17:49

Count Adhemar wrote:
Unorthodoxy wrote:
I never did hear the answer on that.  What was the chance of the Haywire killing two hull points?  Maybe I missed it.  I also missed the answer on what the damage would be like if I failed to pop it and whether you thought that much damage was a good thing or a bad thing.

And I think the rest of us missed your answer as to what the hell your unit is doing within 6" of a transport containing something nasty without first having popped said transport with something else. Seriously relying on a blast pistol to pop anything is asking for trouble. Essentially a 15 point, one-shot weapon with a very low chance of doing what you need it to do. I'll pass thanks.

You're welcome.

And the answer is that the entire list, if you've looked, is an assault based list.  So when whatever is inside gets blown out, I'm assaulting it.  Obviously.  and that is why I'm within 6" of it.  See Enhanced Aethersails for details.  

Perhaps you didn't see that in the list.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Unorthodoxy wrote:
 So I say again:  if you really wanna lobby forthe Huskblade, find me something worth giving up in the rest of the force that isnt a Blaster Pistol.

I don't compute that way. I seek out and try to eliminate the weakest link when freeing up points. I admit I haven't gone through your list with a fine-tooth comb, but I can't imagine finding 15 points worse spent than on a blaster pistol. (Meant as a compliment - You don't normally waste points.)

I wouldn't get rid of the haywire grenade. It's your longest distance, most reliable option to strip a hullpoint. 81% chance to strip a hullpoint from ANY AV. Compared to the 48% chance of the pistol for stripping a hull point from AV12, I think a HWG is a far better option to rely on to pop a vehicle's last hull point.

And the night shields represent potentially saving a transport for a round, which has better firepower than the blast pistol. So, while I wouldn't personally do that, it's ultimately up to you.

But I WOULD try to find a way to keep the soul trap.

I'm already going against my every fibre by even thinking about dropping those Night Shields but i realize that in an assault based list, the occasions for hanging back may be far less pronounced and so it IS at least somewhat acceptable to sacrifice it given that it was only ever protecting 5 Wracks to begin with.  Maybe...  But I'll try it even though i fear ill have reason to regret it.

The soul Trap is in the list.  I just had somehow missed the points on it when I totaled it.  I will see where I can eke 5 points.  It's ROUGH with this list to change anything because it is so carefully constructed and the WAY it fights really does require certain things to be in the list.  It's one of those list concepts that NEEDS everything you see in it for various tactical reasons too numerous to mention.  Every change is impactful.

Count Adhemar wrote:
If you're looking for points to trim I'd start with losing the entire Court of the Archon.

I missed this somewhat caustic post.  

That isn't happening at this time.  But I am going to get you a batrep or two on this list so that you can see what it can...or can't...do.

ARG! No unnecessary double posting! In this case a triple post. Please edit responses like these into one post. Cheers! -ligs

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 07 2014, 02:02

Hey guys lets keep the tone lighter please! Starting to get heated in here. -cheers, ligs

Honestly, a 15 point pistol for dedicated AT in an incredibly highly situational setup is something hard to swallow in my book. You say its a done deal, but you're rocking a ton of other blasters and lance which should do the job for you...not relying on a pistol to get you some chance at popping a couple hull points off a transport. I take a minimalist approach though to list building and upgrades. If you want to be assault oriented I'd rather have 2 different options for the assault weapon. I like the venom blade + huskblade combo for options...but there are other options there as well. If you're dead set on the pistol go for it! It's your list and you have a plan in the end which is the real key part. Personally, I'd strip off all the vehicle upgrades (minus those extra splinter cannons on venoms!)

My other question is the inclusion of blasters and splinter cannons in the truborne squads. A very mixed bag of guns there...dedicated AT vs dedicated AI. Personally, not my cup of tea. I'd rather dedicate the squad rather than wasting have the upgrades in a given turn...especially if you need to shoot a tank...20 points wasted for a turn. Sure it gives you versatility but if you drop all those upgrades and strip those SC upgrades, you may have room for some other unit! What that unit may be, I'm not super sure, but it may be something to consider.


***On a side note, I'm starting to warm to the idea of using scourges more often. At 120-125 points (if I remember correctly) you can get 5 scourges with 2 splinter cannons and 3 carbines....that is a ton of mobile AI/AMC. And I think that price is pretty reasonable. Just food for thought!


Cheers!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 07 2014, 03:19

ligolski wrote:
Hey guys lets keep the tone lighter please! Starting to get heated in here. -cheers, ligs

Honestly, a 15 point pistol for dedicated AT in an incredibly highly situational setup is something hard to swallow in my book. You say its a done deal, but you're rocking a ton of other blasters and lance which should do the job for you...not relying on a pistol to get you some chance at popping a couple hull points off a transport. I take a minimalist approach though to list building and upgrades. If you want to be assault oriented I'd rather have 2 different options for the assault weapon. I like the venom blade + huskblade combo for options...but there are other options there as well. If you're dead set on the pistol go for it! It's your list and you have a plan in the end which is the real key part. Personally, I'd strip off all the vehicle upgrades (minus those extra splinter cannons on venoms!)

My other question is the inclusion of blasters and splinter cannons in the truborne squads. A very mixed bag of guns there...dedicated AT vs dedicated AI. Personally, not my cup of tea. I'd rather dedicate the squad rather than wasting have the upgrades in a given turn...especially if you need to shoot a tank...20 points wasted for a turn.  Sure it gives you versatility but if you drop all those upgrades and strip those SC upgrades, you may have room for some other unit! What that unit may be, I'm not super sure, but it may be something to consider.


***On a side note, I'm starting to warm to the idea of using scourges more often. At 120-125 points (if I remember correctly) you can get 5 scourges with 2 splinter cannons and 3 carbines....that is a ton of mobile AI/AMC. And I think that price is pretty reasonable. Just food for thought!


Cheers!

Yes.  Vitriol over a pistol.  lol! 

I understand all the arguments perfectly on the Blaster Pistol.  Won't be the first time I've been told I'm crazy for doing something.  I'm not blythe to the cost.  I  know.  I know.

When I look at the cost of my completed Archon though, it doesn't look exorbitant nor excessive and certainly not for what he can do.  Taking a more relativistic view, I think we should be able to agree that the Pistol just doesn't push his total cost beyond the reasonable.

I have seen...and victimized...  armies that do not ensure that they can make their own advantage matter.  This second point is just so huge.  I cant even hope to express it here though I've done so a lot on the blog.  It's become my stock in trade, honestly.  Lots of examples of it.

Of all the things about Sun Tzu's philosophy that I embrace, one of them is taking away the advantage of the enemy.  Another is expressing your own advantage.  A force of 100,000 is to be feared in the open field but if it is forced to a bottleneck it is a lost cause.  Even a victory will be a defeat.  Your losses will exceed any gains and any points you tried to preserve.  How can my losses ever not exceed my gains if I fail to do the one thing I must do to express my advantage?

As aforementioned I will try to provide some battle reports.  My opponents will grin smugly as their eyes slide over to where it reads "Blaster Pistol".  They will think to themselves such a fool...  Death's too good for him, honestly...

Of course, my chagrin will be somewhat easier to bear in victory, one hopes.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 07 2014, 04:31

I have another idea to get that crucible Unorthodoxy, lose urien. Bear with me now.. you do lose the s6 upgrade and the second set of clones. However you can only have one challenge so the archon covers that base. In return the pts saved buys you a haemon ancient with flesh gauntlet, crucible and vexator mask (more challenge options.. either this and poison ID or clones and s3-4 ap2 ID),  plus another haemon with liquifier (or those upgrades back you gave up for the hb). Just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 07 2014, 09:24

Unorthodoxy wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:
Unorthodoxy wrote:
I never did hear the answer on that.  What was the chance of the Haywire killing two hull points?  Maybe I missed it.  I also missed the answer on what the damage would be like if I failed to pop it and whether you thought that much damage was a good thing or a bad thing.

And I think the rest of us missed your answer as to what the hell your unit is doing within 6" of a transport containing something nasty without first having popped said transport with something else. Seriously relying on a blast pistol to pop anything is asking for trouble. Essentially a 15 point, one-shot weapon with a very low chance of doing what you need it to do. I'll pass thanks.

You're welcome.

And the answer is that the entire list, if you've looked, is an assault based list.  So when whatever is inside gets blown out, I'm assaulting it.  Obviously.  and that is why I'm within 6" of it.  See Enhanced Aethersails for details.  

Perhaps you didn't see that in the list.

Nope, I didn't miss it. Doesn't really answer the question of why you're moving an assault unit within 6" of a vehicle they have a <10% chance of wrecking, knowing that whatever is inside or nearby will shoot them up and/or assault them when they fail to strip the requisite hull points away - as they will do 9 out of 10 times.

Quote :
Count Adhemar wrote:
If you're looking for points to trim I'd start with losing the entire Court of the Archon.

I missed this somewhat caustic post.  

That isn't happening at this time.  But I am going to get you a batrep or two on this list so that you can see what it can...or can't...do.

The irony of you accusing that comment of being caustic, given the extremely abrasive tone of most of your recent posts in this thread, is somewhat amusing.

I've played against the Court many times. On every occasion they have amounted to nothing more than a free kill point (where applicable) for me. I will however be intrigued to see if you have better luck than my opponents. In an assault based list there are far better ways of spending 200+ points than the Court of the Archon. To be honest, in any list, there are far better ways of spending 200+ points than the Court of the Archon!  Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 30 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 07 2014, 20:22

Brom wrote:
I have another idea to get that crucible Unorthodoxy, lose urien. Bear with me now.. you do lose the s6 upgrade and the second set of clones. However you can only have one challenge so the archon covers that base. In return the pts saved buys you a haemon ancient with flesh gauntlet, crucible and vexator mask (more challenge options.. either this and poison ID or clones and s3-4 ap2 ID),  plus another haemon with liquifier (or those upgrades back you gave up for the hb). Just a thought.
 
BROM:  The Master Haemonculus upgrade gives you STR 7 actually, on the charge.  Against WraithKnights and against Imperial Knights, plus AV 13 Dreads and so on, we need that extra str or we'll get tied up forever.  Thats my primary reason for liking Urien.  It also helps that he has T5 in a challenge against NOT Av type things.
 
It's actually a pretty good idea though.  If I was able to run MORE Grotesques in the Raider I think I might actually take that idea and run.
 
Count Adhemar:  What can I say?  You dont understand why I'd be within 6" before knowing if the hull is going to be popped?  eh...  Well let me explain (the obvious).  The Movement happens before the shooting phase.  Thats why.  Need more explanation?  Ok.  what that means is I do not WANT to be any farther than necessary from it BECAUSE I plan to CHARGE the people inside and as you know (I assume?), if I am MORE than 6" away I am giving away huge chunks of probability of making the charge.  No idea why this had to be explained.
 
As for the Court:  I hear you.  I do. And here's the why:  We cannot execute this game plan without speed and we dont have a slot for another haemonculs (without a second CAD, but that creates the list I already shared which isnt getting us another Grotesque unit anyways).  So since we cannot get faster Grotesques, the 2nd unit of Grotesques doesnt get the job done.  Also, we could use another BeastPack.  Only thing about that is, it isn't as shooty as the Court of the Archon.  Not even remotely as good in that regard.  The Court also deals WELL with Overwatching if the enemy pops me out and tries to preemptively assault me to steal my charge attacks and slow me down (perfectly legit).  But yes another beastpack COULD be an answer.  I dont have another BeastPack and it's hard to say that it WOULKD be better given that it is more points (points I dont have).
 
 
Now the Talos are one other option but: speed there again.  So no.  The bottom line issue is, it needs to be fast or it needs to be able to get in a transport and be fast.  The Court is the winner.
 
I do not trust ONE unit to be my hammer.  I barely trust two, in the case of Dark eldar.  So I wanted three, I got three.  It just happens that the third is a VERY powerful shooting unit potentially, to go along with its assault capability.  9 Splinter shots and 2 powerful flamers.  It's AS impressive as it needs to be in melee given that it is a shooting unit also.  It will whittle its target pretty convincingly before charging which will eleviate any concerns I have about taking it over the beastpack (again, a Beastpack I cant afford in the list anyways).
 
I think the reasoning is sound on why I took it and I think that perhaps the reason it didn't work AGAINST you is that the enemy wasnt giving itself a chancwe to express its advantage against you.  You probably stranded it "over yonder" by shooting its transport or perhaps you blew it up and charged it and it didnt have the Medusae or they didnt roll well.  Who knows.  But with Aethersails (which act like unreliable Night Shields in a way when you think about it) I should be able to stay out of most round 1 firepower and rush the enemy plenty close enough to kill them in round 2, OR stay way back and shoot them if they are assaultish in nature and then finish whats left pretty convincingly.  The plan is adaptable.  Thats why I needed the second splinter Cannon on the Kabalites:  for armies you need to keep your distance against.

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