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 A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

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egorey
The Duck of Death
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 20 2014, 14:10

Whatever BAO and Nova do we know we can boil it down to this ...

Fast armies and mobile MSU armies both have the tools to do well in Maelstrom missions and do well in Eternal War missions as well. Wave Serpents provide durable fast mobile OS troops. So WJB and DAVU are kings in 7ed. SM can do a job as well. Drop 60 drop podding troops on the table and see who can take you out before you secure enough points in the mission to win. Or rush up with chaos rhino spam and MSU and see how your opponent counters. Break down 7ed missions ... do you see what I see?

Creeping Darkness - very interesting list and you know my vote always go with the mandrakes. And dual Cronos - lol. Very original.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 20 2014, 20:08

Hmm... And how do you (Creeping Darkness) deal with the two worst cases for this list? You have given the list no way to make sure the reserves come in as needed. The actualy list skeleton makes sense but it could suffer heavily with Reserve rolls being uninsured...

Im also curious about your selection of the Cronos over the Taslos. i know what it does and why you'd want one. But STR 3 weaponry and the like needs time to do its grisly work and they don't fight as well. So you're exposing them to a lot of risk much later in the game than I'd be comfortable with. The Pain tokens they can hand out are totally awesome, BTW.

The TIMING of this force makes me a little nervous is all.

As Duck said, Mandrakes are super cool. I like that they made the list. Especially useful since they would join the haemonculi in exactly the way they are generally designed to do. Mandrakes make so much sense coming from Webway Portals and I honestly think this is their strongest suit, so good use of them there.

Anywho, just some thoughts. My primary reservation was directed at the timing. I added an Aegis for that reason and an Autarch! You just have to have some insurance when your plan is to use the Webway for major damage dealing reserves. So much can go wrong without it that you need absolute commitment to the strategy.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 21 2014, 00:05

Absolutely right Unorthodoxy, poor reserve rolls could be very damaging. Unfortunately neither DE nor Necrons have any native ways of manipulating reserves, so living with the risk is part of the trade off for bringing Necrons rather than Autarch led Eldar. Although I'd forgotten about the Aegis option, which would be an ideal spot for the Necrons to man. I'll have to think about how to fit one in. And, y'know, buy Stronghold Assault Sad

Having said that, I think two portals can help mitigate the risk. If I remember correctly we roll for all reserves before moving any of them on, so in the event of a bad roll troops can deploy through the more conservative portal option. I've also toyed with the idea of opening one portal on turn one at close to the midline, but moving the other Venom flat out turn one with the aim of opening the portal in a very dangerous place turn two. That transforms a mediocre set of reserve rolls into a potential benefit, by leaving more dudes to come deep, but at the (significant) cost of having no choice about where to enter turn two. Definitely the Aegis with comms makes this a better plan.

The Cronos is there instead of the Talos mainly because all it's friends coming through the webway benefit significantly from the extra pain tokens. The addition of the probe is to ensure that it can still fulfil this role in hand to hand, since it doesn't have enough offense to actually win melee. The Talos would definitely be choppier, but I think the Cronos provides better support. Don't forget it has S4 AP3 on the syphon, and the vortex large blast might at least make an opponent think twice. (I did have a Talos as well in an early draft, but couldn't fit it in)

I was surprised when making it that Mandrakes leapt out at me - and seemed to fit! I'm going to have to try them through a webway portal. Finally a reason to buy the models!

Thanks for your thoughts, I might rework it with an Aegis and try it out. Now that it's out of the main book I keep forgetting it exists..,

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 21 2014, 04:19

Not to help the competition out buuuuut... yeah. I'd want the Aegis.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 21 2014, 14:20


So for those asking how DE can survive 7ed - Let's look at Eldar and Nrcrons ...

My solution for DE is fielding MSU. DE are the top of the heap when it comes to MSU units.We get 30 point troop units in 60 point skimmers, 36 points elite units, 12 point fast attack units, and 50 point HQ's. At 1850 points, I can field 64 units if I choose to. Compare that to the typical Eldar and Necron list of 12+ units + a few characters, and you've got a clear advantage in maelstrom missions. This why rhino rusha nd drop pods lists will also thrive in 7ed. The more units you can field the closer you keep the game ... you give yourself a chance to win every outing.

My favorite Eldar list has 15 units and one HQ and that is spamming a few cheap units to get it up there. My favorite Nec list has 12 units and 2 HQs. Build a list with this in mind and profit.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 21 2014, 14:36

egorey wrote:

So for those asking how DE can survive 7ed - Let's look at Eldar and Nrcrons ...

My solution for DE is fielding MSU. DE are the top of the heap when it comes to MSU units.We get 30 point troop units in 60 point skimmers,  36 points elite units, 12 point fast attack units, and 50 point HQ's. At 1850 points, I can field 64 units if I choose to.  Compare that to the typical Eldar and Necron list of 12+ units + a few characters, and you've got a clear advantage in maelstrom missions. This why rhino rusha  nd drop pods lists will also thrive in 7ed. The more units you can field the closer you keep the game ... you give yourself a chance to win every outing.

My favorite Eldar list has 15 units and one HQ and that is spamming a few cheap units to get it up there. My favorite Nec list has 12 units and 2 HQs. Build a list with this in mind and profit.

So in essence what you're saying is that, by making use of Soviet Russia or China-like strategies in regards to unit deployment -win by numbers- Dark Eldar would come out very strong? Well, I'm glad you mentioned it since that is precisely how I like my armies Very Happy

I can see this work quite well, since Dark Eldar outweigh their fragility by hardly precedented firepower so this is quite excellent. However, I do think tactical elements in such an army are of major importance and what would you generally recommend in terms of these? Think reavers for flanking maneauvers, ruin-bound trueborn with Dark Lances and perhaps an air-element for sky control? Or can we safely assume the employment of MSU kabalite warriors which each carry a blaster as undedicated but tactically lenient anti-tank? AKA, the "we have so much firepower we can afford to waste some of it" approach. I'd like to see your thoughts on this since I very much like the "flood 'em with bodies!" list-building philosophy. Also, would allies providing some sort of backfield support be an interesting thing to add? I'd love to see this being expanded on Duck.

Also on that note: I reckon Dark Eldar are so good for this role since they have cheap transports, no? Aren't you essentially advocating for Venom Spam 7th Edition here? It does certainly sounds like it. Or rather splinter rack raiders is what you had in mind? Please elaborate what makes our 9pts units better than for example the Eldar 9pts units or especially the Ork and Imperial Guardsmen which are dirt cheap with the same survivability (albeit somewhat more disappointing firepower which might actually be even better in the numbers they can get them.)
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 21 2014, 18:54

egorey wrote:
Thank goodness we have a list without WG. Thank you J. I was wondering if everyone was going to just work on my original template (meant only as an example) or come up with something a bit more original. Now we have your list and Ligs list without the ubiquitous WG or Shadow Council. Yay.

To be fair, Duck, I was thinking about WG before I ever even saw your template, based on you and J mentioning the contest in chat. You and I just think similarly! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 21 2014, 23:05

Randy ---
DE skimmer spam is very cheap. Truborn are cheap. A haemie is cheap. Even our scoring MCs are cheap - Talos. I can get MSU beastpacks pretty cheap too for fast attack. Now I'm not saying we should field 64 units, lol. I'm saying we could. But you could certainly field a balanced list and have double the units of Eldar or Necrons. As for IG - well a blob squad is a bargain ... thay can do cheap scoring as well. But they tend to field large blobs with priests and heavy weapons and that starts to add up.
DE can be mobile and still field a lot of units ... a clear advantage we have. As for making a list - nah. I'm not spoon feeding you a list. There are numerous examples of these lists already in the army list section.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 22 2014, 11:01

egorey wrote:
Randy ---
DE skimmer spam is very cheap. Truborn are cheap. A haemie is cheap. Even our scoring MCs are cheap - Talos. I can get MSU beastpacks pretty cheap too for fast attack. Now I'm not saying we should field 64 units, lol. I'm saying we could. But you could certainly field a balanced list and have double the units of Eldar or Necrons. As for IG - well a blob squad is a bargain ... thay can do cheap scoring as well. But they tend to field large blobs with priests and heavy weapons and that starts to add up.
DE can be mobile and still field a lot of units ... a clear advantage we have. As for making a list - nah. I'm not spoon feeding you a list. There are numerous examples of these lists already in the army list section.

Quite frankly, there's three ways I see this going:
1. Venom Spam. Something I'd never do personally because... Well... It's venom spam. Minimal kabalite, wrack or wych units in minimal venoms with the occasional blasterborn squad. Not very exciting, is it?
2. Wracked to Death. This one I came up with the other night. With the possibility to take dual force org in 7th edition it actually becomes viable to take tiny, 3 man units of Wracks, allowing for this weird wrack spam sort of list where you simply have TOO MANY units for the opponent to deal with, some of them employed to tie up some enemy units in close combat. However, this can also be achieved by using minimal 3-man Formosan Henchmen/Inquisitorial units, so how do we benefit here?
3. Street gang. Hellions and potentially reavers in small, minimal squads. This might actually be major fun and very mobile, but as has been established, Hellion do somewhat disappoint in regards to what they do for their points. They're essentially weird wyches without dodge that don't need no skimmer! (Nuh uh uh UH!) and cost close to marines. Interesting MSU unit, but Eldar Jetbikes which can turboboost and Ork bikers (I don't know how much they changed with this new codex) would still do this better. As Mush can attest however, Reavers are still an amusing unit to consider in such a list.

Of course we benefit from having a cheap roster of units overall, each "suffering" from the same fragility but gaining that sacrifice in power. But as it stands every list needs a core and I feel that the three cores I have proposed which are essentially good ol' venom spam, a glorified coven list and a relatively expensive mobile core of lower-Commoragh rascals. I'm of course not trying to argue MSU doesn't work, but our options don't seem very appealing is what I'm advocating or efficient in regards to other codices.

But, we can still use skimmers like no other and a kabal list making good use of these will be deathly lethal. We certainly benefit from them alot but this rasies the question: When is alot of venoms too many venoms? Or should we all hop onto Yacht club as a concept and see how that turns out?
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 22 2014, 13:40

Dark Eldar are fragile. So I would start looking at deep strike reserves. The 50% limit has been removed in 7e and its possible to deep strike almost your entire army. So take a good look at Duke Sliscus in your list as you can drop a massive amount of units in on turn 2 without the risk of them being shot up (except for interceptor). Now you can use an allied Autarch or a Comms Relay Bastion ( you could even put a min Reaper unit in the bastion) so you have units on the board turn 1 and don't get tabled.Now you have a 2+ re-rollable to reserves and you can bring in Razorwings or Crimson Hunter, min units of Trueborn Venoms,  Kabbies and blasters in fraiders, maybe min wyche units with haywire.This offers lots of Objective Secured troops and guarantees a chance at winning any match.  Also add in your WJB and some min reaver units. I can get 30+ units in a list this way. Against a list with a heavy hammer unit squad of death, you want to reserve anyway and split up and bait your opponent.

Note that Dsing Truborn with blaster are equivalent in cost to a Rav and do not use up HQ slots leaving you room for Razors or Taloi. Also be aware how effective Duke can be with Truborn. You might think that your skimmers will be easy pickings when DSing but we have jink when stationary. Also the blasters in the skimmers are not effected by the raider jinking. A Duke list should play like a true bait and switch list where you can draw an opponent's hammer towards the bait and then overload another side of the table with ease. You can also DS behind those Serpents if they move and use your truborn blasters to great effect.

I am aware I said you could field 60+ units in a DE list. i'm not advocating you go that extreme but I am advocating overloading your opponent and using 7ed rules to your advantage. Duke Sliscus is a lot better now. His rules can really benefit a DE list. So that would be one viable approach (not the only).

BetraytheWorld's skimmer overload list and Cheer's yacht club are other examples of how to make DE powerful in 7ed. I'm sure he would be delighted to explain its uses and tactics. We also discussed a list that used 7 man hellion squads to the a similar effect as WJB Eldar bike squads. It is time to re-imagine our lists, no?

Here is an example of how a poor Eldar player gets beat by DE:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599857.page

Read that, see what you think, then read my comments below.

IJustin in this game was afraid of the deathstar. It was a very strong beastpack. However, reserving your whole army??? It takes 22 lance shots on average to down a wave serpent. He could have spread out his serpents and fired starting turn one and dropped over half the beast pack. He had first turn so invisibilioty was not an issue and most of his shots ignore cover too. He conceded his beta strike. He also deployed very poorly. He could have sacrificed just ONE serpent to stop the advancing pack IF it was still a threat but even that move is iffy. He would have been able on tuen two to take out most of the fragile transports on Rob's side instead - the better play. He gave up two Serpents. Learn to deploy and move in 7ed. You have choices. Justin tank shocked the pack with one serpent. Had he tank shocked with all his serpents he could have destroyed what little should have been left of it.. but really it was a desperation move he made because he had deployed and positioned so poorly early on. Best bet against deathstars is bait them away or ignore them and avoid them. With Wave Sepent spam though and going first, you can punish them. Don't beat your head against a brick wall. My biggest laugh was when I saw he picked a WK as warlord and gave up his traits against a DE list ... think about that folks.

Now despite Rob being a far superior player (you can see that in the batrep) Justin still had a chance to win! Why? Wave Serpent spam is truly awful to play against. You need your own plan to beat it. You really have to think out the match up. So look at my suggestions above on what to field and how to field a list against such a potent force. Rob managed with a list that was not even tweaked for Eldar but expect experienced tournament Eldar players to be more punishing.

I leave you with these words ... win with ...
DEPLOYMENT     POSITIONING

This is what wins games in 40k. It has not changed at all - just the mechanics of 7ed have changed so we need to adjust how we deploy and position to grab the most points. So ...

Duke 150
Autarch (mantle, fusion gun, laser lance, mask, jetbike) 150
2x 4 Truborn (4 blasters, haywire), Venom (dual sc) 328
2x 5 Kabbalite Warriors  (blaster), Raider (dissie, torment launchers) 250
9 Kabbalite Warriors (blaster), Raider (dissie, splinter racks, grisly trophies) 171
5 Wyches, (haywire) Venom (dual sc, grisly trophies) 130
2x 5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent (scatter laser, holofields) 400
6 Swooping Hawks, Exarch (sunrifle, hit and run) 131
Falcon (pulse laser, brightlance, holofields) 140
-1850-

AT and AI. A little weak on AA as is typical of a lot of DE lists. Twenty units, twelve OS. Eleven blasters, haywire, lots of splinter, AP2 dissies and eight skimmers and a tank. Wave serpent and falcon start in one corner to bait and one serpent in the other and the autarch hides. Everything else reserves. Your cc is the autrach who might do something, lol.

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Last edited by egorey on Thu Jun 26 2014, 00:06; edited 7 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 00:54

Werd.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 13:24

So I was asked in chat what is the strongest 1500 list I could think up - battle-forged - no gimmicks


- Keep It Simple Eldar 1500 -

baharroth 195
(plan B - autrach, fusion gun, power weapon, swooping hawk wings - 115)
4x 5 da,  serpent (sl hf) 800
10 hawks, exarch, (sr, h+r, me) 205
( plan b - 2x 6 hawks, exarch (sr, h+r, me) - 282 )
WK (sc ss) 300

This simple list is a beast. Four wave serpents and a suncannon WK at 1500 is just unpleasant for your opponent. Dropping in a tough cc character that doubles as AT makes that much more nasty. Can it be beat. Of course. But it has no real weaknesses. It plays itself. Eight OS units, enough AA in the serpents, and a suncannon that just wreaks havoc at 1500. No it is not very original. Just very effective and rather boring to play I would imagine.

The core of the list is four very durable skimmers that ignore cover. This is very difficult for most lists to deal with. Sitting in opposite corners with a WK backing them up, you need to move forward to destroy these guys. The answer to them is cc. But to reach them you have to bypass Baharroth, grenade packs, and a WK that loves troops on foot. And try and kill my warlord. He will simply h+r and go back to reserves. As I said - rather easy to play and not very taxing for decision making and deployment. The less errors open for poor positioning and deployment the better your chances, right? This list will reposition itself easily if needed.

Now I expect a guys like Unorthodoxy and Brom can break this down even more. But the basic template is solid and you can adjust to taste. A farseer with mantle could replace baharroth. Warp spiders could replace hawks. I just love my hawks though and also my suncannon WK, lol. So why not insert them.

Note that plan B is how Ligs would run the list, lol.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 14:29

You only have Baharroth as close combat unit?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 15:18

Ther big B with the hawks and the WK - yes. At 1500 with this list it is fine

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 15:48

Zenotaph wrote:
You only have Baharroth as close combat unit?

What qualifies Baharroth as a close combat unit? 4 x S4 AP- attacks really don't cut it in my book. Am I missing some deadly melee weapon?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 16:04

Count Adhemar wrote:
Zenotaph wrote:
You only have Baharroth as close combat unit?

What qualifies Baharroth as a close combat unit? 4 x S4 AP- attacks really don't cut it in my book. Am I missing some deadly melee weapon?

I feel this comment was only made because Zenotaph was under the impression a Close Combat unit is mandatory in every list and as such Baharroth would... Qualify best? I don't know. This list is shooty, and that's just about all it does. Being really shooty and really, REALLY deadly.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 16:16

Actually, you do miss something. Str4, AP3. And a special rule, I don't know the proper term.
We would call it blind...

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 16:26

Zenotaph wrote:
Actually, you do miss something. Str4, AP3. And a special rule, I don't know the proper term.
We would call it blind...

D'oh! Yes, that would be the deadly melee weapon that I was indeed missing. The Shining Blade. Okay, that does make him somewhat deadly in assault, unless he's up against 2+ saves.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 16:43

Not, that he's the cc-monster, like some others, but it should be sufficient for tactical marines...

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 17:13

Quote :
Here is an example of how a poor Eldar player gets beat by DE:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599857.page
I preface my response by saying I did not watch every minute of the report and I'm sure both players are likely very good at this game, likely better than myself. We all make mistakes I know I do.
Anyway heres a few things I noted after a quick skim over:

-Reserve all with serpents is almost always a bad decision. NO I'm pretty sure it is always a bad decision.  

-Lack of blast weapons. Every time I face an army without blasts I just Lol. The DE players deployment illustrates the need for some form of template/blast in an army. Multiple tank shock + blasts would have been huge here. Beasts are naturally resistant to small blasts with termie bases but the fact remains blasts control deployment and movement options. They also punish assaulting vehicles and this is transporthammer.

-List design on both sides could use some changes. Of course this is arguable due to the nature of BAO adjustments to the core rules, expected meta, playstyle, many factors. Things these guys will know better than I do since I dont buy into BAO/NOVA. That said there are a few things that the DE player could of addressed I feel:

-Shooting is a poor counter to the skimmer transport meta of 7th, plain and simple. Shooting low RoF weapons at av12 serpent shielded jinking transports is what they want you to be doing.
Ravagers are still welcome but they can't do the heavy lifting. Similar to blasts they keep people honest, give you a chance at first turn cracking and not much more. Consider how different the game could have been if those raiders were filled with haywire, add another unit instead of a 3rd ravager.. The poor deployment choice by the eldar player may well have seen the DE player able to capitalize with raider rush to support the beasts and saturate the field with far more effective counters. Options are options. Im also missing a WK here with armament debatable. The suncannon is insane but D cannons counter opposing WKs/MCs so there is that to consider. I prefer the SC currently.

-The haemie is something ive brought back into my pack.. then took right back out. Theres just too much S6+ around for it to net a tangible return on investment, at least for my regular opponents. In a broader environment it could be different. Now if furious charge was the first bonus I may reconsider but FNP on t3 is too hit or miss for my liking. I realize his inclusion is partially, maybe even mostly for the crucible. I tried the same thing but I feel its just not that effective inside a pack.

-The eldar player I feel could really stand to benefit from blast/barrage weaponry and shuri cannons on all the boats, specifically for games like this. Pour firepower into the pack before the protections go up. Then ignore the remnants. With scoring changes and no beatstick inside the pack, maintaining size is crucial to its performance.

-This last is more a think outside the box approach, but I'm starting to feel sanctic may be as good, possibly even better for the pack situation dependent. Ya invisibility is the pinnacle of protection but it doesnt help the beasts actually hurt anything. Anyone who's used a fully tooled pack enough will say there are plenty of times when they've failed to wreck even an av10 rear tank. Thats a bad place to be, again especially if your opponent has blasts/templates. In 6th this was ok because of how the pack won games and the greater viability of gunlines. This has all changed. Now MSU mech is the name of the game and a 35 pt rhino shocking within 3" can invalidate their play on objective(s).

Instead consider 3++ save beasts with hammerhand. Their survivability is much lower but you better kill them quick or EVERYTHING in range is dead. Of course this requires an entire redesign of an army since you need to present many more threats to keep velocity up or the pack as the only immediate threat will just be destroyed, but its something to consider. 2+ eternal warriors out front are a great way to compensate for protection powers btw, so is simply maxing out on khymera at 25 strong.
 
I'll back this up by saying I've had the chance to get sanctic with these powers off once so far and its insane. The discipline is very very underrated at the moment especially on large mobile combat units.
The other little noticed aspect of this discipline outside of GKs is the anti flyer (well anti everything) capabilities of cleansing flame. Getting a bike model within 9" of multiple chassis is very doable and will cause serious problems. I'd go as far as to say game changing especially for rear armour shots. I recently put 2 hps each on 2 night scythes with this power in addition to the other ground models it wrecked.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 21:47

On the subject of Sanctic powers, how are you finding the Perils situation?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 22:31

Not much of an issue... usually. Not always but I havent used much psych in 7th to be honest. Ghosthelms really just say "save a dice to dodge perils" and then the chart isnt that scary to begin with. Losing a power is worse than a wound anyway.
Also SSoA lets you reduce the WC cost so I'm not forced to throw as many dice at a single power thus allowing more powers to be attempted.
I haven't faced any uber psyker lists yet when Ive had a psyker myself though. Ive really only been delving into seers above 1850 which is not my preference of pts level, but even against what I'd call moderate defense (around 4-6+ d6) I havent seen many powers stopped on either side.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 24 2014, 23:51

Psyker powers are unreliable at times. I like it.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 25 2014, 02:17

so my addition to the WWP lists. it is interesting, enjoy. Smile

Dark eldar with CW: Eldar support 1850:

HQ:
Haemonculus wwp.  85
Duke Sliscus.  150  Warlord.

Troops:
3 Wracks: Venom, S.Cannon, N.Shield.  105
20 Warriors, 2 S.Cannons.  200

FA:
6 Reavers: 2 Heat Lances, arena champion, venom blade.  171
6 Reavers: 2 Heat Lances, arena champion, venom blade.  171

HS:
Ravager.  105

Fortification:
Void Shield Generator: 2 extra projected shields.  100

CW:Eldar

HQ:
Autarch: Fusion gun, Laser Lance, bike.  105

Troops:
5 Dire Avengers: Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Holo-Fields.  200
6 Windrider Jetbikes: 2 Shuriken Cannon.  122

FA:
5 Warp Spiders.  95

HS:
Wraithknight.  240

So the wracks and the Haemonculi deploy with the WK, Ravager and the Wave Serpent with DA. It is their job to bubble wrap the haemonculi so he gets his first turn of movement in the venom to put the portal as far up the field as possible. protecting them all is a triple void shield generator which should mitigate quite a bit of fire as well.

Coming out of the portal is a large squad of warriors to hold any central objective/sit in terrain and shoot whatever comes close to the centre of the board with 3+ poison from duke(who can then go off and join the wracks or stay with the warriors). 2 Squads of reavers with HL to hit any vehicles and a champion with venom blade to assault any weakened squads that need destroying they also of course have their blade vanes which is always useful. The WJB's pump out a decent amount of Bladestorm shots and wont do badly against light vehicles either. the warp spiders can also come out of the portal or DS depending on pleasure and where they are needed and the Autarch goes with either the WJB or a reaver squad depending on heavy or light vehicle saturation.

things a list should be able to deal with.
no psychic defense but not much point of only having a little psychic defense either need to dominate it or not bother so i have not bothered.
anti flier: the only thing that has a decent chance is the wave serpent DE dont often have much but we do have the movement(mostly) to get out of the firing arcs of fliers.
anti tank: a ravager and a wraithknight provide some T1 vehicle sniping and hopefully more than 1 turn of it, heat lances deal decent damage to everything from the reavers, s6 and 7 for light vehicles comes from the WJB, warp spiders and the WS. A lone fusion gun and blast pistol from the autarch and the duke if im desperate. All in all a decent amount from alot of different sources personally i find it a little light for turn 1 anti tank but that should be ok.
Anti infantry: every unit apart from the ravager and wraithknight bring something to the table that they can use to effectively kill infantry will clearly rely on the blob of warriors to control the central area for shooting at infantry and everything else depends purely on targets of opportunity and vehicle saturation.

i wont get everything in turn 2 but with the 2+ reserves from the Autarch it should be most of it which should bring out enough dangerous targets to force some issues with target priroity.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 26 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 25 2014, 03:07

Glad to see the WWP lists coming in! Keep them up everyone! The more the merrier!!!

So I wanted to take a moment to think about how my marine list should change in 7th edition. I've acquired some more random models and think that I might go into high gear with flyers. This is honestly a first list for 7th to look at for me. I could easily switch out of flyers (but I just acquired 3!!!) and would move into razorbacks and rhinos and probably dreadnoughts or land raiders...either way I'm going full on mech!!!

Quote :

Red Scoripians:
Loth
2x 5 tact (meltagun)
2x 5 tact (plasma gun) in rhinos
stormtalon (ac, lascannon)
cent devs (3 guys with grav cannons and omniscope)
2x stormraven (ac, mm)    

Ultramarines:
Tiggy
2x 5 scouts (ccw/pistol)
2x thunderfire cannons

I must warn this is a 2 CAD list....I'm not the biggest fan of this because I feel bad doing it but it is legal...I really wanted to use 5 heavy support so I had little choice in this case. I will present another list where I go standard BAO/NOVA list construction rules (2 detachments-1 CAD and 1 allied detachment).

So I keep a bunch of the same elements from my 6th edition version of this. But I have dropped the heavy weapons for the tacticals in favor of special weapons to support a movement based army. The meltagun squads go into the stormravens and are escorted by the talon. This air wing can hit a flank hard and go for mech in general. This will surely leave my opponent wondering what they can do against such a well armored airforce...most lists don't take a ton of AA, so this will help. Sure flyers can't capture points but they can go hover mode and stay pretty durable still.  

The rest of the army surges forward, loth/tiggy/cents go invisible and devastate and generally go all shooty deathstar on w/e I want. Thunderfires lay down supporting fire and can thin out horde elements and generally go for troops.

Scouts offer some infiltrators to sit on forward objectives early and cap objectives as long as they can hold them.

EDIT: I like the questions that Egorey and Unorthodoxy generally ask of their lists:

-AA? You bet, I have 3 flyers armed to the teeth with AT weapons.

-AT? Certainly, I have flyers with AT weapons, meltaguns, all marines have krak grenades (they do glance tanks to death I promise).

- AI? I'm not super strong here, but assault cannons, thunderfires and bolters should do the trick.

-Troops? I have 6 OS units, 4 of which are mechanized to get into position. Tfires score now? Awesome, let me camp that on home objectives.

- Speed, different deployment options and the ability to re-position to capture objectives for missions?
While certainly not as speedy as eldar/DE, I certainly am mechanized to the teeth and flyers give me a large amount of mobility and speed. Scouts give me infiltrate and will probably be ignored as they don't hit too hard.


-Psychic defense?
You bet! Not too shabby at 6 solid WC. This is the best marines (codex astartes that is) have to offer honestly, without spamming in 2 more basic librarians.

Thoughts?

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