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 A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 17:35


Wow. Your opponent should do the math. The chance of failure and perils is pretty low actually. If you throw a few die at a wqarlock power it will likely go off safely. And the farseers have no worries at all. And yes some lists will be funny as it boils down to who has the most die. But I'm curious how many die you had to counter and cast? It would seem the odds heavily favor the dual seer council.

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Bugs_N_Orks
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 18:36

New FAQs are up if anyone didn't see them yet.  The main thing I noticed was the note about PFP only affecting models with the rule was taken out, meaning as per the rule in the DE book, the entire unit gains the benefit (yay beasts), until re-FAQed lol.

For sure he dominated the Psy phases.  I basically had to choose one of his powers that he barely got off to try to block and chuck all my dice at it (I had just the one farseer, so 3+D6), but I think he failed to cast more than I suceeded at blocking, he had his big powers he wanted to get off like Fortune/Invis/Protect and still failed a couple times over the course of the game even throwing 5+ dice.  When you've got powers you NEED to have go off, you really do start dumping tons of dice into them and run out of dice faster than you'd think.  After failing Invis on 5 dice, he was throwing like 7-8 dice at WC2 powers (and often losing another to stop perils). He'd run out of WC by the time he got to the warlocks a lot of the time (and Eldrad never got to use his force weapon either).

On one of my turns I rolled 6 for WC, I got guide off on one die, he threw 8 dice at it and didn't get a 6, then I threw 7 at Invis and got 5 4+s (which is only 1 above average), he dumped all his remaining Deny dice and didn't get enough 6's (which isn't really surprising), then I used my last to get 4++'s off.  Sure a couple 50/50s went my way, and I had other turns where I failed both my tries with one dice, but as long as you aren't reliant on powers it's still ok and you'll still get stuff off reasonably often.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 18:46

Giving beasts FNP will be nice.. while it lasts. On other armies I noted blood angels psykers got a huge boost. Expect to see podded fragioso libbys with daemonology led by iron arm mephiston soon. Also rune priests got faqqed up pretty badly losing jotww and runic weapons only add +1 to dtw now.

Meanwhile im struggling to see how DE primary coexists in this new age. Ive always done well allying in eldar for a few bits but even recently armies have been shifting rather fast on me, even today and im finding my army is spread to thin with DE primary sadly.

Basically mechanized infantry now with OS coupled with flyer spam and now malefic conjurations is too much for DE to deal with in a competitive scene. I hate to do it but I feel I must switch to Eldar primary to cope. Im facing down 60 scouting full mech marines with gravs and eternal CM, 9 void shield castles and 3 scythe double dragons among other shiz.. My dark eldar cant hang without abusing malefic and wave serpents! fraq./rant
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 19:49

And heldrakes now have hull mounted guns and measure from the barrel, guess GW decided they sold enough of those haha.

With the new ruling about Void Shields only taking 1 hit from blasts/tempates, they're now very good for DE armies. Baron w/Beasts, 6 Wyche venoms, 3 NS/FF ravagers, and 9 void shields is about 1850.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 20:59

Ah I missed that on the dragon sweet! At least thats something. Flamers on open topped is a thing though, both torrent and podded. Promethium relay networks became much better against now.

We've always played the shields that way fwiw. Ive considered bringing some shields myself to cover the advance of my beasts but havent tried it yet. That pure DE list doesnt look too bad and I have the models for it. Thing is I dont see DE doing shield castle as well as other armies can so if I encounter another ill be outshot. We just dont have the anti tank to knock out things that threaten the castle.

Reading the relevant sections I think the PFP thing provided to the whole unit is sketchy at best. Id like to benefit but best case scenario it seems as long as a BM (or baron) is carrying the pain tokens the entire unit benefits.. is that the interpretation without the FAQ saying otherwise?
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Bugs_N_Orks
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeTue May 27 2014, 22:00

Brom wrote:
We just dont have the anti tank to knock out things that threaten the castle.
Hence all the wyche venoms lol. I made that list off the top of my head so there's probably room for improvement, but with proper Shield placement you can get those beasts and venoms pretty far forward T1 while still being in the shield bubble, and 12 Objective secured units isn't half bad either.

Brom wrote:
Reading the relevant sections I think the PFP thing provided to the whole unit is sketchy at best. Id like to benefit but best case scenario it seems as long as a BM (or baron) is carrying the pain tokens the entire unit benefits.. is that the interpretation without the FAQ saying otherwise?
That's my interpretation (if I'm understanding you correctly), you need a model with PFP, and it needs to be a "Dark Eldar Unit" as per the rule (so no PFP wraithguard), but if those are satified "the entire unit immediately gains... blah blah blah".
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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed May 28 2014, 00:35

Ok so I had to look into this for myself. There are two key components.

First: You need PFP to actually gain the pain token. It states: "Whenever a Dark Eldar unit with this rule destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit..." you get the pain token.

Second: It goes on to say: "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit..."

The chart also just states: number of pain tokens & effect

Ultimately, (whilst I don't want to believe it) the wording from the codex would actually allow a pain token to affect any unit that has it. GETTING the pain token seems to be a DE only task...tough to tell with that wording. But using a haemie with its auto token would seem able to confer that token's abilities to any unit he joined as long as he has it.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed May 28 2014, 00:48

OK thats what I thought. From there though it starts to blur. So do allied characters gain the benefit?? It does say "entire unit".
Otoh even when the FAQ language existed limiting it to BMs and other actual 'dark eldar', khymera and razorwing flocks still generated a token even if they are the models that really killed the unit off.. i.e. not the BMs. If you know what I mean.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed May 28 2014, 02:24

FaQs are still not answering every question we have but they have gone a long way to make things clearer. I altered my list the moment i read the GK FaQ. Insane that psykers cast sanctid no? Vehicles with sanctuary and banishment - crazy good. So my list will be a war of attrition against other psyker heavy lists now. In my one experiment GK proved very good now.

DE has to play their strengths now. Allies in transports seems a good place to start. My reading of PNP seems to indicate it confers to the whole squad too. I think beastpack is still healthy but raiders and wave serpent spam ( i like raiders a lot now and scoring serpents are sick) would be quite strong as they now are troops with objective secured and much more difficult to explode. So you do want some Eldar I would think and likely as your primary.

The playing field is being leveled in 7ed - this is what the Duck is saying:


I'll discuss horror spam at the end. It can be beaten. Objective secured units have become very important in 7ed. Dark Edar are fragile but they have a little more durability in wracks and nowhere importantly scoring fast skimmers. 'The 'lists to beat' will all have a strong Objective Secured core, i feel.  Rhino rush with gravs and bikes from Ravenguard with scout/stealth suddeenly becomes a strong list (we discussed this in chat, btw).  AV13 spam such as necrons, .Salt everything with flyers.  The unplayable armies are playable now.The newly FAQed BA can pod Furioso LIbbys with crazy psychic powers.They can take LRs as objective secured scoring troops. Biomancy Mephiston, jumps, allied Tigurius + rhino tacs, storm ravens all will be seen. We have a wide open playing field. Even an ork Weirdboy can summon 10 horrors right through a Farseer's defenses then FNP the perils on a grot orderly. Its gonna be a free for all. The new edition now has balanced the previously dominating xenos lists because ATSKNF and power armour on SM is the new 'black'.  

Only the he ridiculous conjuration spam from daemons/csm and maybe even from elder keeps the match ups even. So far the clown-car list is to summon horros, who then sacrifice to heralds, then summon GDs to beatface. Takes 3 turns but once going it sure seems unstoppable. My counter is GK henchmen in psybacks. They are cheap but the psybacks themselves get banishment and sanctuary (1 warpcharge each) so roll up and start weakening those deamons while in the safety of the vehicle.

But any good shooty list can hurt daemon summoning as you can take out a herald and squad of horrors fairly easily and the daemon player is expending his powers doing the summoning. Trying to drop pod in and fill up the board will be trickier against daemons. summoned Daemons are very unlikely to scatter if you have an Icon of Chaos on the board. Even if you don't, they are free for summoned units of Pink Horrors, so subsequent summons wouldn't scatter. Also, a casting of the 1 warp charge Scorched Earth power prevents scatter. But there are other options I've seen played already.

If your counting on psychic powers to save you from a daemon summoning army remember they have 30+ dispel dice.If your plan is to use psychic powers you need to have your own 20 die. These will become interesting match ups for sure. Far better is to field as many MSU objective secured units as you can and play to the mission. Shoot down as many horrors as you can a turn and take as many objectives as you can a turn. Spawned horrors are troops, btw. So your opponent will be replacing them as fast as they can but if you can focus fire the heralds and take out a couple of units a turn you can beat the list.

Let the games begin! Ligs and I will discuss more units and lists slowly ...

1) New drop pod lists with melta are the new black. DSing scions with mel;ta also are now a good choice.
2) The Exalted Flamer is now a Herald that can be chosen as one of the 4 that makes up a single HQ choice. If you take two as heralds and two as heavy you have 5D3 str 9 ap 2 shots from Blue Fire which are not, i repeat this not a psychic ability requiring a test.
3) Blue Scribes can now automatically cast powers without rolling for 81 pts.
4) IKs are much tougher now. How doi we take advantage of this?
5) We need to do a BA list for sure and see Ligs redone IG/AM lists


We will review all these concepts at a later time.

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Rock.


Last edited by egorey on Thu May 29 2014, 15:45; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeWed May 28 2014, 21:15

Duck has also asked me to speak to Imperial Knights. Holy crap!!! These guys just got ridiculous.

First lets remember 4 things from how they worked previously.
1.) You needed them to be the primary detachment and thus field 3-6 of them for them to be scoring.
2.) They lost D3 hullpoints on an explodes result.
3.) D weapons were nuts...'nuff' said
4.) Charging through terrain made charging exceptionally hard

These were the major things holding them back.

Now lets fast forward back to the present. These are the 4 changes that really affect them:

1.) They are scoring no matter what! 7th edition made everything except stuff that flies/glides. So whats that? It's a 6HP behemoth sitting ontop of that objective making it virtually impossible to even get close enough to contest. The base on the thing is so large you would be hard pressed to break into that 3" zone without assaulting the knight (which is now legal if you can't hurt it remember). So this is huge you are no longer penalized for just allying them in.

Remember my IG list with 2 knights? People were saying that it wasn't good because it had a low amount of scoring units...what now!?! Of course objective secured is still a thing to contend with, but you have the might to bash transports out of the way.

2.) You only lose D3 additional hullpoints on a 7 now, thus requiring AP1/2 weapons. These will be more abundant, but now you have less to worry about just getting spammed S7/8 weapons with crappy AP. IK now can last longer. HOWEVER, do realize that if you suffer an explodes result you take D3+1 total hullpoints as the D3 is on top of the initial hullpoint you lose for the penetrating hit.

3.) D weapons were toned down, allowing both cover and invulns if you roll 2-5 on the D-table. This isn't as big a deal for IKs as they use an assault D weapon and stomp to do their ridiculous damage. So if using an IK you need to be careful of things like beast packs which can bog him down forever unless there are good rolls on the D-table. Thus wyches (with HWG of course) are gods against IKs in close combat and we can use them against them super effectively as they don't shoot overwatch either. However, this doesn't mean to say that IKs aren't amazing still in CC and you should watch yourself.

4.) Charging through terrain for these guys is not a problem as they have move through cover. Amazing!

There are a mix of changes for IKs. The biggest one being that they can score without being primary. This is huge as it doesn't require a large investment of points in something that can be limiting in scope. But now that you don't need to dump points into 3 of them you can now make a much more balanced army with them very easily. So keep a wary eye out and be prepared to see them on a table near you if allowed! I know I am even more excited for my adeptus mechanicus force that will use 2 IKs!

***********************************
So let's look at that list again:

Yarrick
2x priests
lvl 2 psyker
Platoon (pcs with autocannon, 3x10 guardsmen with 3 lascannons, 3 power axes)
veteran squad (lascannon)
2x wyverns

2x Knight Paladin

aegis with quad gun

ALLIES:
scion command squad (4 meltaguns)
5 man scion squad (2 plasma)


So the knights add a ton to the list simply by giving me even more scoring. Objective secured is really important and thus, its important to still have troops, hence the allied scions rather than simply combining them into the main list.The blob is still potent but i wonder about the lascannons still and whether meltaguns might be a better choice and help open up some points to do other things. My psyker...he is interesting...certainly not as reliable anymore. Having a second psyker for that blob would be very very useful and help the army overall psychic wise...facing psychic spam is a different story obviously luckily i bring hte big guns to deal with those psykers and wyverns to snipe if needed. While i desperately need flyer defense somewhere I almost think I might want to drop the aegis for another 5 man scion squad with plasma (even trade points wise). Another option to consider is to switch one of the IKs to a meltacannon in order to rip apart vehicles as we will definitely see more of those now.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this list now with 7th edition being the new kid on the block.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeThu May 29 2014, 04:11

Quote :
I'll discuss horror spam at the end. It can be beaten. Objective secured units have become very important in 7ed. Dark Edar are fragile but they have a little more durability in wracks and nowhere importantly scoring fast skimmers. 'The 'lists to beat' will all have a strong Objective Secured core, i feel.  Rhino rush with gravs and bikes from Ravengiard with scout/stealth suddeenly becomes a strong list (we discussed this in chat, btw).  AV13 spam such as necrons, .Salt everything with flyers.  The unplayable armies are playable now.The newly FAQed BA can pod Furioso LIbbys with crazy psychic powers.They can take LRs as objective secured scoring troops. Biomancy Mephiston, jumps, allied Tigurius + rhino tacs, storm ravens all will be seen. We have a wide open playing field. Even an ork Weirdboy can summon 10 horrors right through a Farseer's defenses then FNP the perils on a grot orderly. Its gonna be a free for all. The theta now has balanced the previously dominating xenon lists because ATSKNF and power armour on SM is the new 'black'.
I said something very close to this earlier today.. great minds must think alike eh  Cool 

Hey Ligs I like the list. Knights are a a pain to deal with now and I think your on the right track although its hard to find a good reason not to spam psykers in IG. I would look to pick up another one at least. So far in my [limited] 7th edition experience psych isnt stopped except by inordinate defense which brings the added benefit of those broken powers you can force through.

On another note im bringing a list for a series of games next weekend, its combined arms DE/Eldar. Right now Im torn on one thing and I need help making a decision.

I really want to bring the suncannon both for the carnage its capable of and less so for the 5++. I know I'm gonna see full on rhino rush gravs, s10 characters, dual skyrays + double tides, you get the idea.

Anyway I feel the scatter laser/suncannon combo is much better in this edition than previous due to all the transports but also because 2 s10 often under performs for me (wha??) with all the jink and other nonsense I tend to see although its hit big a time or two.  

I Just cant find where to squeeze pts. Any ideas:

HQ
irillyth 220
farseer, jetbike, ssoa 130
haemonculus 50 (gives token to beasts)

TROOPS
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 110
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 110
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 110
5 dire avengers, wave serpent- tlsl, sc 195
5 dire avengers, wave serpent- tlsl, sc 195

FA
23 beast pack, 4 bm, 19 khymera 276
6 warp spiders 114

HS
wraith knight, hwc 240

TOTAL 1750

Edit- the other option ive been turning over is to lose either Irillyth or the seer.. neither of which really appeal to me tbh. Irillyth is a ravager and smacks meq/geq around along with all the other stuff he does. But the seer is sooo good now I cant live without either one im afraid.

Just a pleasant reminder no swearing in the forum please. -ligolski Smile
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeThu May 29 2014, 08:14

ligolski wrote:


***********************************
So let's look at that list again:

Yarrick
2x priests
lvl 2 psyker
Platoon (pcs with autocannon, 3x10 guardsmen with 3 lascannons, 3 power axes)
veteran squad (lascannon)
2x wyverns

2x Knight Paladin

aegis with quad gun

ALLIES:
scion command squad (4 meltaguns)
5 man scion squad (2 plasma)

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this list now with 7th edition being the new kid on the block.

~~~
You know my list building method so lets take a look:
Anti-air is given a nod in the list. I consider it a must. You're not going to be able to take on heavy flyer spam as well as you'd like but you can go broke trying so we'll call it a checkmark. Don't drop it. It's also useful against normal reserves and on occasion, that's going to really help you.

Anti-AV14: You have an adequate amount so checkmark there.

Fire Hoses: Wyverns are definitely that and the Knight Paladins have this on lock down. Solid. My one problem here is that iof the enemy is a well mixed force, you'll get forced to fire at things you don't want to at times with things you'd rather not. Nonetheless, Stomping, Wyverns, blasts and pure numeric firepower is all present and hordes are really going to hate you. A lot. Early.

Anti-MEQ: Check.

Anti-TEQ: Check

Mobility: Meh. This is where you're going to hurt. Enemies with large numbers of scoring units and don’t be surprised if this is common, could outmeneuver you. Fearless ones in particular but they aren't the only ones. Knight Paladins can move and they take up space as well as being awesome at clearing away the rabble. But enemies that can come from behind you and around you are going to divert you well enough leaving you positionally with some tough choices. This might be a smaller matter but I think that it's a danger. The time it takes to pop vehicles that outflankers and deep strikers may use will necessitate movement towards them in all likelihood. So if I see a weak spot here, its this.

Scoring Units seem plentiful enough. Timing will be important with them but it looks like a check mark to me thanks to the Scions.

So I have to say, this list looks really solid. It's like a Dual DreadKnight list and those are pretty deadly too. Now I know the exercize here was to talk Imperial Knights so I think it's probably pointless to point out how much I might have preferred seeing those in the list. More economical and while NOT as impressive, probably would give you a lot more list flexibility. That's a minor quibble though. I think it’s a pretty tough list and if played well, quite dangerous.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeFri May 30 2014, 04:11

I agree UO, that mobility for the most part is lacking (problem of foot guard in general) and my nod to AA is pretty meh in my opinion. A single quad gun is not going to save me from flyer spam. My best bet is to whether the storm and play to the objectives and try to position myself better if I face that. I'm seriously considering making some changes.

I think I can add more mobility by adding more deep striking scions, just another 5 man squad with a similar load out to the plasma squad. This is an even swap with the aegis and quadgun. Furthermore I'm not sure I want to use the lascannons, single shots just aren't going to do much. The squad should be assaulting where it can do a lot of damage when necessary, thus it needs to move. I'm thinking autocannons may be a better option. This does limit my AT somewhat but I can deepstrike for back armor and heck I have IKs.

So here is my new idea for the list:

Yarrick
2x priests
lvl 2 psyker
Platoon (pcs with autocannon, 3x10 guardsmen with 3 autocannons, 3 power axes, 30 krak grenades)
veteran squad (lascannon)
2x wyverns

2x Knight Paladin

ALLIES:
scion command squad (4 meltaguns)
5 man scion squad (2 plasma)
5 man scion squad (2 plasma)

So I add another scion squad which has objective secured. Furthermore by dropping lascannons, I have enough points left to give the blob krak grenades!!! MUHAHAHA 30 krak grenades against any lightly armored vehicle is gonna die...same with MCs!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeFri May 30 2014, 13:41

brom wrote:
HQ
irillyth 220
farseer, jetbike, ssoa 130
haemonculus 50 (gives token to beasts)

TROOPS
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 110
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 110
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 110
5 dire avengers, wave serpent- tlsl, sc 195
5 dire avengers, wave serpent- tlsl, sc 195

FA
23 beast pack, 4 bm, 19 khymera 276
6 warp spiders 114

HS
wraith knight, hwc 240

TOTAL 1750

Interesting. Not a lot of psyker defense though. I get the list though. Spirit Stone of Anathlan is boss now with perils rolls. Irilyth for H+R and fearless - I get it. I think this something we will see a lot of. There really is not a lot you can shave from the list other than the WK which I'm not sure you need. More troops might be better ansd DSing a raider with KW could be good - stick on torment and grisly and add crucible to haemie. But I'm not sure its better.

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Last edited by egorey on Fri May 30 2014, 17:31; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeFri May 30 2014, 17:28

Your right on psyker defense but so far in my limited experiences with 7th I don't see psychic defense as a worthwhile investment other than to protect a key unit with your own psyker.

I'd like to hear why you prefer baron to irillyth duck. Honestly hes been good for grenades and +1 rolloff but not stellar in game. Irillyth otoh brings huge buffs with eternal warrior, lances, anti meq and so on plus scouting rolloff to possibly deny rushes by mechanized RG or WS bikers. The hamie is fragile so can't be the warlord but his token confers fnp to khymeras now.. which I haven't tested yet tbh but in theory the pack shouldn't care much about charging through cover with fnp.

Edit- ack! I'm away from my rules please tell me irillyth has plasma grenades? The beasts I can live without possibly, him no.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeFri May 30 2014, 17:44

Irilyth only has HWG.

I'm wondering if the stock WK has had its day slightly. No Smash is a biggie to me and the name of the game is very much about objective secured, which the WK can't do.

edit: I also feel like only one Psyker is pointless.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeFri May 30 2014, 18:06

I don't prefer the Baron. I like the build overall but I'm starting to think seer council now trumps beast pack. I would be running Eldar main and DE detachment now. But the list is okay.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeFri May 30 2014, 18:42

No with spells being hard to get through I would like to see more Vect. That prefered enemy is going to be very nasty.

And even with 1 farseer you cannot be sure to get that precience through when fighting other psykers let alone a bunch of them.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeFri May 30 2014, 18:48

Thanks blade, looks like baron is back in.. I love my model anyway.

I agree on the stock wk. The 2 s10 have often been a worse ravager and now explodes on 7 makes them even worse.. which is why I'm working on fitting the suncannon. With laser lock support its a beast and is huge threat to so many things, even riptides still get hurt by it. Anything av12+ buildings and so on he's better off assaulting anyway. Don't forget blind either, along with 5++ invuln I've found it's much more survivable and now that str D is nerfed he's even better at handling knights.

I have yet to face extreme psych phases but so far one seer has been about as good as he was in 6th, which is to say situationally very good and other times just ok. People still can't stop buff powers without an inordinate amount of dice or sheer luck. That's pretty much fact. Not really sure I even need the seer tbh, he's mostly cool factor since the key powers can't be rolled reliably without multiple seers.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeFri May 30 2014, 21:00

I played my friend Nick (with a reasonably psyker heavy Daemon list) on Wednesday using my new 1850 double beasts (and by "new" I mean I dropped 2 troops and added Malys).

Me:
Baron
Malys
5 warriors
20 Warriors, 2 SCs, Sybarite
5 BMs, 10 Khy, 6 Razors
5 BMs, 10 Khy, 6 Razors
Talos, SC, Liq
Talos, SC, Liq

Farseer, bike, warding, Stone, Shard, Spear
3 Jetbikes
7 Spiders
Wraithknight

Against:
4 Tz-Heralds, ML3, Discs
16 Horrors
16 Horrors
8 Screamers
8 Screamers
8 Screamers
3 Tz-Grinders, Torrent

Played Crusade with 5 objectives and ended up winning on T5. Incusion and Sacrifice are silly powers, and as long as you get a Cursed Earth off before hand they don't scatter when you summon them. You'll notice he doesn't have either a grimoire or a portal, that's because if he decides he needs one he can just summon a herald with it using sacrifice (the only upside is that the herald will be stuck on it's own for a turn so anyting but nurgle should go down pretty easy if it needs to). Also he rolled 10's for warpstorm for the first two turns so his entire army had 3++'s re-rolling 1's lol.

Malys is really useful now, the FAQ about not being targeted got removed, so her squad now just plain isn't affected by powers (good invisibility counter, in addition to being immune from witchfires and maledictions). She hung back with one of the packs (to keep it safe from FF) while baron and the farseer pushed forward, so I had a fresh pack to switch to once the first got beat up.

Again my psy-powers probably only got denied like 50% of the time. I had Shriek, Dominate, and Guide. And he had enough dice to throw at his important powers that denying wasn't even really worth it, but WC3 powers are tough to get off and he failed plenty of times even on 7+ dice.

There's an RTT tomorrow that he's taking the list to so we'll see how it goes (I think this was actually his first loss with the army in 7th).
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeSat May 31 2014, 05:10

Playing against daemons is a coin toss depending on the mission and how well built the daemon list is. I have yet to face daemons using DE but against GK daemons get boned pretty well. I just have the tools to beat them. I really like your list Bugs. I think Talos are now a very strong choice. A scoring mc has to be good, eh. And Malys is a must consider now for DE. Again though, I'm surprised you got your powers off. It is not just DtW - you still have to roll them and succeed although the spirit stone now seems an almost auto-include as well and I imagine that helped considerably.

Now there is a lot in 7ed that benefits DE. First off I think Misfortune will be a great power if we use Imagine rending on beast packs will be some good. I also see sanctid as being useful for beast packs ... if you roll hammerhand or sanctuary and fortune. I think there are options to explore. Of course rending is a bit unreliable but in a heavy shooting army like DE it is better by far. DE can easily put out over a hundred shots a turn. It means even dissies have a shot at glancing LRs or penning a wave serpent. Against infantry units that are tough rending is very good.

On another note dark lances seem less appealing when it takes three hits just to remove one rhino, lol. I think we will be switching to dissies in a lot of lists now for sure. A DL hits 66% of time, pens 33% of the time, explodes 16% of the time - for a 10% chance of a Rav exploding a vehicle. Of course exploding our skimmers is much tougher too.

Now you are using beastpacks and that is great. But you could also add Reaver jetbikes instead of warp spiders. Place a Farseer with the Reavers and you can get mad saves and bladevaning/caltrops is some good now. I would love fortuned Reavers with a 2+/3+ rerollable jink.

Primary AT has to be heat lances on Reavers and haywire grenades, blasterborn (wyches were always used ). So we need to look closely at these units as well and how we might want to buff them with Eldar allies. You are using Talos (unfortunately he gets only one smash now), Spiders and a WK in your list Bugs. That works too of course. It seems we almost need Eldar now for relaible AT, btw. Warp Spiders, Scatter Walkers and a Wave serpent suddenly are appealing.


It seems that the DE are shifting now and rightfully so. We need to explore new options. I find your list quite fascinating. No AA at all other than one Spider squad. Of course you faced no FMCs so it did not hinder you. You also have quite the split between your faster and slower elements. I would have liked to have a read a more detailed report on how you managed your force in this match up. Did you target the Heralds early? How did you deal with the Screamers? How did you find the WK with standard load out? And no raiders or wave serpents. That is brave considering grisly trophies are so golden now. This has been mentioned before too but LD is now an issue with DE. Sybarites and grisly trophies seem good buys.

Inquiring minds have to know.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeSat May 31 2014, 16:24

Quote :
Me:
Baron
Malys
5 warriors
20 Warriors, 2 SCs, Sybarite
5 BMs, 10 Khy, 6 Razors
5 BMs, 10 Khy, 6 Razors
Talos, SC, Liq
Talos, SC, Liq

Farseer, bike, warding, Stone, Shard, Spear
3 Jetbikes
7 Spiders
Wraithknight

Played Crusade...
I also find this list intriguing! If only I could divest myself of certain 'signiture' units like my fully painted skimmer fleet (which I keep including less of) I might able to try something more unorthodox like this. I do think you made a good call limiting the number of troops, that is to say unless you were to bring allied wave serpents.


I would like to hear you elaborate about a few units:
The taloi for example I dont see getting any better than previous especially with Smash changes as duck mentioned. Their slow and have marginal ranged presence so make target priority easy, and now cant reliably threaten AT in CC if they ever really could. Paint me consistently disappointed with my pair.
The WK otoh is still a useful tool although I honestly believe the suncannon is now hands down the better weapon. Cracking transports and erasing the contents by bypassing cover with his size seems the new name of the game around here.

The razorwing heavy packs too are a little strange to me, both I guess are meta calls I assume? One of the reasons I like Irillyth so much and also why ive moved away from RWFs is the amount of barrage weaponry and tau I tend to face. Mech never left my area and now its in full force while fortifications are huge here too. Tau and even orks and crons are all bunkering up and abusing av14 buildings and void shields. Makes it pretty hard to run pure DE.

The tzeentch daemon list otoh seems well tooled to face a mech environment so I imagine the screamers didnt perform as well against your double beast packs infantry/anti infantry list but will do better in the RTT if people are adapting to 7th.

EDIT- forgot the biggest thing when I posted, how is your non Fearless pack getting along? Thats a pretty big investment to be taking LD tests no?
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 01 2014, 15:09

brom wrote:
I do think you made a good call limiting the number of troops, that is to say unless you were to bring allied wave serpents.

This actually makes me wonder. I know everything scores but everything does have objective secured which is increasing useful in 7ed. It is a bit of a risk taking this approach. However, I cannot argue with success which is why I requested a more elaborate breakdown of Bugs' list.

If I was running foot lists I would be bringing in a WWP now.But of more importance is that allied  Battle Brothers can use the WWP. I salivate at wraithblades and Taloi popping out a portal, lol. I just look at 7ed and see so many possibilities now.

Another option that bears investigation is multiple detachemnts - now possible. But I need to give it some thought before I propose any lists. So many ways tpo play DelDar now.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 01 2014, 17:48

Quote :
This actually makes me wonder. I know everything scores but everything does have objective secured which is increasing useful in 7ed. It is a bit of a risk taking this approach.
Im not saying OS isnt a or even the key aspect of 7th, but I feel the implication varies from army to army. To elaborate, from my perspective the reason we shouldn't lean on OS units is twofold:

Eternal war missions favor durable objective secured armies like meq/geq, blobs etc. If it comes down to one of our OS units trying to hold an objective against nearly any other army's OS unit we lose that fight. We dont do hold very well, hell ive been pushed off objectives by gretchin! At least we dont without something like 20 warriors + the help of vect.
If its not a matter of OS vs OS then any unit in our arsenal bar wave serpents works better due to higher offensive output, greater durability or both.

Maelstrom of war missions otoh favor fast adaptive units such as DE/Eldar specialize in. Able to accurately DS or redeploy every turn to score at a moments notice. Maybe everyone won't utilize these but to me rolling off for which mission type is a balancing factor for armies such as DE who cant compete as well in Eternal War missions. I face several variations of fortification networks that are pretty nightmarish to defeat in any eternal war mission that doesnt involve multiple objectives. Maestrom of war missions punish these types of strategies while favoring mine.

Edit- that said I realize certain armies break this new system too.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 23 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 01 2014, 23:22

Just finished playing my first maelstrom of war mission. MoW missions seem to completely invalidate static gunlines. I'll be playing another vs crons later today we'll see how that one goes since that army is much more mobile. (sounded a little pretentious so ill add seem in there lol)
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