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 A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2013, 02:24

Because beasts are so good and fun Ive actually decided to add them to my forces and move away from Iyanden.  Im thinking 2 masters and max flocks and kymerea for now with a farseer on a bike with shard of anaris.

Also as a bit of an aside i made a lulzy list while I was bored...its incredibly mobile.
1850 pts:
Eldar Primary
farseer on bike with shard
3x 10 warp spiderz
5x 6jetbikes (2 cannons each squad)

DE ally
Baron
warrior squad (w/e you need for the tax)
a massive beast pack! 4 masters, 17 kamerea, 6 flocks <-illegal cuz im dumb


Ok this is honestly just a silly list. You could easily modify it to add WKs if you want which sticks to the mobility game . You can just imagine how scared a player could be with the mobility here to get in someones face.

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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2013, 03:54

I would only suggest trying to fit in two Seers and at least one WK. It makes a huge difference. You can easily fit in twenty warp spiders in your list with two seers and two WK

Eldar Primary
160: Farseer, Jetbike, Singing Spear, Shard of Anaris
135: Farseer, Jetbike, Singing Spear, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan
153: 3x of 3 Windrider Jetbikes
122: 6 Windrider Jetbikes, 2 Shuriken Cannons
380: 2x 10 Warp Spiders
480: 2x Wraithknight

Dark Eldar Detachment
105: Baron Sathonyx
45: 5 Kabalite Warriors  
270: 5 Beast Masters, 10 Khymerae, 6 Razorwing Flocks

I see this list keeping the same basic template but much more threatening. The WKs flanking the beastpacks are huge and the extra Seer (giving you two shots at fortune/invisibility) is also key. You have enough troops arriving from reserve to get both objectives and linebreaker here.

Quick reminders here ...

Baron:
He is dirt cheap point wise decent statlines for a Dark Eldar HQ. His  S4 from Hellglave, T3, LD9, A4, is quite good. Now add Power from pain, Skyboard, a  2++ Shadow field, give units he’s joined with  defensive and offensive grenades and stealth. He gains +2 Strength on the charge with his skyboard and has hit and run for giggles. Even better with the new GW FAQ, he adds +1 to your roll for determining who goes first. So of course he belongs in the list.

So why two Farseers and not just one?

Farseers:
You always roll on Runes of Fate first. Always. You have a 75% chance to get Fortune that way. Once you have fortune you always roll on Telepathy ... prescience is great but you should already have guide and you might even have doom/mind war ... what you want is invisibility/hallucination/terrify etc. Really only mental fortitude is not needed. Any other power supplements the beastpack well. Now Farseers have a few options. Really the only option that is a given is Shard of Anaris to get fearless. However, spirit stones are always welcome when many powers you want are warp 2 and singing spears are just too good to pass for the point cost. Take at least one spear. Now once in combat you can always detach the Seer without fortune and go hunting down vehicles and transports if need be. I have done this often. You have hit and run. Once you detach with h+r you can then send your lone farseer off in a different direction if needed.

Last but not least .. yopu need WKs. You need them pushing forward in front of the pack. The beastpack has weakenesses. Ignore cover hurts even with fortune and possible invisibility, many units have precision shots and wil pick out your Seers and Baron. So you want/need the threat of the WKs leading the way. Don't be fooled by this. Even a Seer council wants at least one WK in the list abd Seer councils are far more durable than beastpacks. The beastpacks best defense is to get into cc as quickly as possible.

One further note. I love my beastpack but I have been beaten using them on a few occasions. I have never been beaten playing my Seer council. That won't stop me using the beastpack, lol, but it is important to note that objectively the Seer council is a bit better.

Looking at both units ... both can

-Contest--another huge and under-looked element. As long as they have Baron, 2 Seers, and one Warlock left alive, the unit can split into four in order to contest end game. Of course, three of these can go 48" in the Seer council only two in the beastpack.
-Are fast (obvious) but Seer council has the edge
-Both can engage almost any unit in the game without fear.
-Both have access to hit and run, grenades, and fearless (Shard).
-Both have Psychic Powers that can it buff itself, but the Seer council can use Warlock powers to de-buff others. This is often under-looked.
-Both are durable but the Seer council has better access to a 2+ armor, 2+ cover, 4+ invulnerable---all rerollable. Beastpack has no jink save. The Baron gives both a default 2++ to lead the unit.

It is the psychic powers that force mutiply that put the Seer council ahead and the 2++ rerollable saves.

READ

http://dnanoodle.blogspot.ca/2013/06/revisiting-seer-council-part-2-runes-of.html


Last edited by egorey on Wed Nov 27 2013, 22:49; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2013, 10:30

Good analysis there. I agree on most of the points even though you are only comparing max size deathstars. I use a smaller, 220pts beastpack with Baron and 1 farseer in addition to two WK:s. That way I have points left for an army can can function with out the deathstar if it get evaporated for some reason (not getting 1st turn or fortune with 75% change etc.)

One thing you forgot to mention is footprints and their effect on the game. It has both advantages and disadvantages. Seercouncils footprint depends a lot wheter you are useing older or newer bikeboxes. The old boxes that had a single bike also had large flying base (60mm?) the newer 3 bike boxes have smaller ones (40mm?).

In deployment (and more when going second) max beaststar is hard to deploy. 21 models on 40mm bases and 3 characters take alot of space even if you are not going to use max coherency to avoid blasts. Add in the rest of your army and it becomes a very full deployment zone. Seer council with newer bases are so much more Easy with its 13 (40mm)bases.

After that 1st turn I like having a big footprint as my armies usually don't have that much AA support. The big unit can deny so much options from enemy flyers. It's also easier to get beasts in to a cc as it's so big that it's quite hard to avoid. Same is true also to lesser extent for seercouncil.

In my last game against IG/SM airforce I used the big footprint of bests to speed my sole farseer rapidly to different locations to precience and guide my units that were best placed on the board to shoot enemy fliers. WK:s are not a problem, but Warp Spiders can easily be out of guide rance going after enemy flier last turn.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2013, 11:31

Vasara wrote:
One thing you forgot to mention is footprints and their effect on the game. It has both advantages and disadvantages.
This is true. I used it to my advantage in a game against a drop pod SW army. With a 20 model beast pack I was able to spread my vehicles around and use the beasts to fill in any gaps, preventing any pods landing inside my 'castle'. In fact, it worked out really well with scatter as the pods all moved further away from my lines meaning that there was very little effective shooting from the Space Wolves and I was left with a lovely turn 1 assault!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 27 2013, 14:08

I like the sound of all this and am excited to get a beast pack. I probably won't use the Baron because I want to run grots simultaneously which requires archon and haemie, and I will only use one farseer since I'm using allied Eldar, but I look forward to what the unit can do. Hopefully, if nothing else it be a nice fire magnet and soak up lots of shots so my 2 talos can move up and do damage. I'm very excited.

Also, Eg the point of the list I posted for lulz was mainly to have 30 warp spiders but I like the list you off as well. I started with something close to that before I dropped the WKs for a larger pack and more bikes.
EDIT:
I should also state that this list was also illegal because I can't read and messed up the beast pack immensely. With that fix and removing one jet bike squad I could easily fit 1 WK. Obviously, if you want 2 there are easy changes to be found in messing with the bike squads

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 29 2013, 00:33

So on saturday I have a 2250 pt game against my friends IG. There will be no allies. I will face commissars in blob squads, leman russes, hellhound, sentinels, probably a valkyrie, veterans, and I know he wants to try out griffon mortars. I will have my work cut out for me.

I know a lot of people have trouble with IG, but I've been fairly successful against them. The key is to be prepared to get in close. Trying to out gun IG is the worst thing you could try. Poison is the biggest waste against IG though thankfully we do pack AP5. The key is to get in close and assault before you start getting obliterated by first rank, second rank (double shots). Thankfully, lasguns can't hurt our vechiles, though IG's easy access to heavy weapons and special weapons is certainly problematic. Tough units like grots, wracks and talos will inevitably do better at reaching your opponents IG units. Using allies will also help, especially Eldar. This gives you access to units like WKs and WG that can shrug off IG weapons fairly well. You just have to hope they don't bring a crap ton of lascannons. IG suffer from crap assault virtually across the army. Wyches take care of vehicles with ease and our heavier duty assault units can rip apart anything else.

What things should we focus on first you might ask? In my experience you need to ensure things like hellhounds and heavy weapon squads don't last long. Why? Hellhounds will destroy DE no questions asked. Heavy weapon squads throw out some punishing fire which wrecks our vehicles easily, but furthermore they are only 6 wounds worth of models to kill! That means pain tokens and thus could be good for a Talos or other needy units to get an easier pain token. The problem generally with this is they are at a large range...especially autocannons.

Beyond these two types of units your next problems are obviously the ordance tanks...barrage and russes. They lay down obvious scary firepower and can obliterate our troops. I find I have more issues with barrage since you need area cover to get any cover save. Leman russes require only intervening terrain to get a cover save off of.

You may be asking...what the heck do you do about all those vendettas/valks and blob squads? Blob squads depend on how they are being used. If they are marching across from you I recommend using some liquifiers and assault units to try and lay into them. BUT this becomes super difficult if they have a commissar and thus stubborn and reroll a failed ld roll. I caution you against throwing anything that can't afford to be bogged down all game. If you are lucky and break them the best part is that DE will generally run down IG infantry with ease. Veteran squads are even easier to out assault since they only run in squads of ten.

Dealing with the flyers brings us to the usual issue of crappy AA for DE. There are obvious solutions using Eldar (eldar fliers, reapers, etc). I would suggest perhaps guided warp spiders if you happen to get that close but really don't want to use the other options. I have yet to try this and realize it would be super hard due to 12" range on the spiders, but think of this: If you can get 10 spiders in range, thats 24 shots and if you can guide them all the better. Since the flyer has no initiative the weapons are firing at S7 and if you roll those 6's to penetrate you will also get ap1 and much better chance at ripping it out of the air. If you are crazy lucky to get ignore cover on your farseers rolls (if you go prescience) then your chances will be even better. But this is wish listing honestly. Hopefully you would get at least 4 hits at S7. I'm not ever going to advocate that these are what you should take as AA...this is really a last resort option. I'm pretty sure reapers are better option from what Eg has said in the past.


So with all this mind here is my list (if I am remembering it right):
At 2250 pts:

DE Primary
Archon (husk, vb, shadowfield)
Haemie (liquifier, power axe?)

4 grots (liquifier) in a boat

2x 10 warriors (SC)
5 wracks (liquifier) in venom (dual SC)
2x 5 wyches in boats (hwg)

2x Talos (liquifier, sc)
razorwing (standard loadout)

Eldar Allies
Spiritseer
WG (cannons) in wave serpent (scatter lasers, shurikan cannon, holofields)
10 spiders
WK (cannons)


So my list is a play off my current 1850 list. I'm looking to use the wyches and WKs to really go after tanks. Spiders can do a similar thing against light tanks with the chimera chasis. The WK is just going to go rip anything it wants a new one....blob squads will eat it, tanks will die...whatever needs a beating. Talos are in a similar boat though definately better for the AI roll, just like the grots, wracks, and razorwing (dem missiles!). My warriors will sit back and lay down fire where they can and hold back field objectives in general.


Well there are my thoughts on playing IG. I've won small games and games as large as 3000 pts against them so it is definately doable. Just don't try to play a shooting game with them entirely. Good deployment will always help. Piecemealing IG apart will ensure confusion in the enemy lines. Otherwise use all the other tenants of playing that Eg and I (among others) suggest and its possible to win against IG.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 29 2013, 03:46

--you think you know beastpacks?--

So you feel your beastpack list is afun only list. I really did an injustice discussing the beastpack becuase I centered the tactica more around a few ICs and the Seer council. There are so many many ways to run a beastpack that we should really address how we are using it. There are so many different approaches to it. In the North American meta we see see this a lot:

Shard Seer
Baron
10 Khyms
6 Flocks

The idea is to simply overrun your opponent with a massive second turn multi-charge. You have rending, 4+ inv., fearless, hit and run and butload of attacks. Now you might not pull the powers you want with the Seer but the unit is still good enough to damage and control the table. It handles your 2+ save units with rending and has enough assaults to really hurt and a spear as well for vehicles.

Some like myself add the second Seer because Seers are simply good force multipliers nd the second seer can be detached if needed and can linebreak, contest, etc.

The unit will cost 270 for the pack, 105 for the Baron and 290 for the Seers.

What do our European players prefer

Eldrad
Seer
25 kyms
5 Beasrmasters

That is 840 points of pure bord control. Occasionaly 5 Khyms are dropped for one Clawed find hammer. Add the Baron and you are set. Eldrad and the Seer are going to get fortune. Your odds now improve a lot. But this can be a huge chunk out of your army.  Not the squad I use has a big foorprint but this squad just rocks it out.

But check out this squad

Karandras
Vect
20 Khymerae
2 Razorwing Flocks

Expensive- yes. You have a monster cc IC in Karandras and a very decent fearless IC in Vect who can also steal intiative. Too bad he is AP3 now but meh, he is still very good in cc. So we have just added the two most expensive HQs to our pack, lol. Do not forget Vect has haywire as well and a shadowfield. And preferred enemy against the world. No psychic buffs. Pure board control at its finest. Vas and I did the numbers and even against 10 TH/SS termies you will win in two turns likely. The lack of PGL can hurt but the Khym saves are excellent so you do not rely on any boosts from Seer powers or stealth cover. Now depending on how you rule you can infiltrate the unit with Karandras, turn two assaults are near guaranteed and if you go second maybe turn one assaults. He is a monster in combat, striking at Str8 AP2 Initiative 7. Now if Karandras is not allowed to infiltrate the beastpack simply infiltrate Karandras forward 12"-14" in cover and have the beastpack join him turn one. Now a possible list with this configuration would be ...

DelDar Beastpack Madness

Eldar Primary
230: Karandras
160: Farseer, Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Singing Spear, Spirit Stone of Anath'lan
204: 4x 3 Windrider Jetbikes
190: 10 Warp Spiders
480: 2x 1 Wraithknight

Dark Eldar Detachment
240: Asdrubael Vect
045: 5 Kabalite Warriors
300: 5 Beast Masters, 15 Khymerae, 4 Razorwing Flocks

(1850)

So this beastpack has a spear for AT and Karandras. But as a melee force it is quite frightening.  

i8: Vect: 6 attacks
i7: Karandras: 5 attacks
i5: Farseer:  2 attacks
i6: 15 Kymerra: 45 attacks
i6: 5 beast masters: 5 attacks
i5: 4 Razorwing flocks: 20 attacks

Charging you can just add attacks to the profile.
Preferred enemy add hits
Seer buffs or debuffs add wounds.

Now this list has a lot of flexibility. The deathstar here even includes an extra Seer  (you might get fortune and juicy telepathy powers as well). And the Seer can always detach as can any of the HQs and attempt to go on its own to contest, linebreak or finish off a squad (jetbikes and warriors come in from reserve always). This happens to be the list I'm curently tested on the weekend (Dec. 1st) to see just how much damage it can do while controlling the movement and deployment of my opponent. The Warp spiders were excellent as well in the list and the two WKs were great against my opponent's Riptides. Point the Wraithknight in the direction of the Riptide, and have it shoot and charge at it till the problem is gone. Double tap while closing the distance, charge turn 2-3, you will win combat, if he breaks you have a very good chance of sweeping. Otherwise just sit and wait till you punch him to death with a fearless better MC. The huge footprint of the pack in my match also hindered the deployment of my opponent's Crisis suits and I was able to assault his quad with Reapers/Commander and his Broadsides w/ Farseer very early in the game. The six razors might
are just a little extra rending insurance - Karandras has monster hunter for MCs but six razors will help at times.

Speaking of Karandras - i was asked by my opponent why I invested so heavily in him. Well a character that has six attacks on the charge striking at i7, hs stealth, plasma, infiltrate, monstr hunter and a scorpian's claw is pretty beefy, no. Even his Warlord reroll trait can be quite useful and I like eternal warrior HQs. Reallly the guy might be land raider cost but he is an absolute beast in cc and if people allow it (I know very debatable), he does have that infiltrate rule he passes on.

The last option will depend on whether or not you are using DE or Eldar as your main detachment. In Canada we see three min squads of beastacks used ... no Baron, just one Beastmaster and your 2 Razorwing Flocks or 2 Beastnasters and 4 Razorwing Flocks which are 86 points only. It is a very inexpensive annoyance squad that can still do damage on the charge - two of these squads in a list can be very difficult to deal with.

So before deciding that beastpacks do not belong or cannot be fitted in your list  think about all gthe variations. Now I know Sean (who I consider the best beastpack around) is now in love with the Karandras/Vect bastpack (you still get fearless which is key) and proper positioning and deployment can get them into cc turn two with minimal losses. So what pack you chooe is certainly dependent on your skill - some beastpacks are certainly easier to play that others.


---end of beastpack discusiions, lol---  


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 01:58

So today I had my game against my friends IG. We played at 2250 pts and we played kill points with long table edge deployment. In the end I reigned victorious! It was a really good game and I've got to hand it to him, he made a really good initial deployment choice. I deployed first and chose to deploy on half the field...well he went and deployed on the other half in a castle of tanks and a big blob squad in one corner with another blob squad in the center behind terrain. This essentially required me to redeploy everything towards the other side of the battlefield. We were playing on a field bigger than 6'x4' as well so this was an immense task.

However, this ended up not hampering me too much. I didn't fire a single shot T1 and he didn't mange to kill anything for first blood due to my positioning with the terrain and how he placed himself. Warp spiders, raiders, WK were easily redeployed to face the new threat. I left my warriors in the back field...they did nothing all game. My Talos also did nothing all game because they just couldn't get to the other side of the field fast enough. While his deployment force me to come around it ended up working for me because I managed to swing so fast (yay eldar and DE!) that I had his forces trapped in the corner and I got to the blob squad not in the corner easily enough with my grots/archon/haemie and ate through them in one turn (archon killed commissar quickly). From there I just mauled my forces to kill the tanks quickly (WK had a kill tally of 2 leman russes, chimera, 3 sentinals!). Warp Spiders did freaking fantastic, killed a hellhound and 2 griffon mortars...I love these guys and am sold on them...can't wait to get real models for them!

So I ended up playing this really well and kill point wise it was close. As much as I was able to kill off stuff, I had lost a bunch of stuff, but I pulled ahead easily enough and end of T5 it was over. If it had continued I would have tabled him probably except for his Valkyrie running around. I'm impressed by the speed at which I was able to get things done. It really makes me look forward to getting some beasts and using a farseer and eldar jetbikes in smaller games.


***IG thoughts with my friend
Post game we chatted a lot of IG and other things. His army is truly designed for 5th edition with the blobs and tanks. We know that the new dex is coming soon so while we talked about changes to his army we didn't want to commit to anything. He really loved the idea that Eg and I had talked about with outflanking IG. Particularly my idea using Al'rahem to outflank an entire platoon...and thus chimeras, a blob squad ready to fight close combat using a priest, commissar, souped up sarges and add in an xenos inquisitor with dem grenades! It would be pretty funny and you are guaranteed for that entire platoon comes in on the same board edge, thank includes chimeras, blobs, heavy weapons and special weapons. We were thinking 3 chimeras, 30 man blob, and a couple special weapon squads for this idea if it remains viable in the new dex. And he is thinking of potential eldar allies on top of all this potentially. Lots of options there as well.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 01 2013, 23:53

I just found this thread tucked away in the allies section, really liking the discussions and analysis going on here.  Since I'm new around these parts I figure a brief introduction is in order:  I'm a long-time DE player since 3rd edition (flirted with other armies but always come back to DE).  In 5th my tourney list was a big Baron+Malys Beastpack backed by venoms and ravagers that I did pretty well with (1 GT win and a couple high placements).  Before the new eldar codex hit I played around with a double mini-deathstar list Baron+Beasts, Jetseer(w/Fortune and Doom)+Harlies, backed by venoms ravagers and a night spinner.  My most current tourney list that I ran at Battle for Salvation was:

Total: 2000 points
Baron
5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom, SC, GT, NS
5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom, SC, GT, NS
5 Wyches, Haywires, Venom, SC, GT, NS
5 Wyches, Haywires, Venom, SC, GT, NS
5 Beastmasters, 15 Khymera, 4 Razorwings
Ravager, NS
Ravager, NS
Voidraven, FF, NS, 2 SF missiles
Aegis, Quadgun
Farseer, Jetbike, Spear, RoWarding, Spirit Stone
3 GJB, cannon
3 GJB, cannon
Crimson Hunter
3 Shadow Weavers

It performed pretty well, I went 3-3 for the tourney, but none of the losses were out of reach (2 of them I misplayed and it cost me, the third was relic and 3 GJB couldn't kill 1 cultist with shooting and assault) and they were all to good players (Andrew Gonyo, Eric Hoeger, and James Watkins).  The fliers were fun but too unpredictable for my liking, they're a big chunk of my army that might not show up until T4, and are vulnerable to lucky shots.  I liked the 15/4 split for the beasts, when you roll fortune 15 re-rollable 4++s is REALLY durable and it can block off a huge part of the board (or sit in the middle and threaten anything that dares to get close) and 20 rending attacks means it still has some teeth against 2+s.  

I've been wanting to try out some of the newer toys in the Eldar book (but not serpents, no desire to buy or build them), and was also thinking of going back to a dual Beastpack list.  This is my first draft of the list

1850 Total
Baron
4 x 5 Warriors
5 Beastmasters, 10 Khymera, 6 Razorwings
5 Beastmasters, 10 Khymera, 6 Razorwings
Talos, TL-LG, TL-SC
Talos, TL-LG, TL-SC
Cronos, Vortex
Farseer, Jetbike, Shard, RoWarding, Spirit Stone
3 GJB
3 GJB
10 Warp Spiders
Wraithknight

The troops are obviously very weak but at least 4 of them will start reserved in most cases.  The beasts, knight and spiders are all very fast and scary.  The 2 talos and cronos hold the middle and deal with outflankers and DSers or back up the beasts as needed.  At 2000 I'd swap Baron for Vect and the farseer for Karandras, I'm actually thinking of dropping the Cronos and some spiders to get them in at 1850, but I'm not sure if I want to give up H&R, grenades, and Baron's +1 for turn choice.  I'll probably end up playing around with a bunch of different character options, Barroth for double H&R beasts, Karandras for Monster Hunter (crazy good with razorwings against WK and riptides), Eldrad for redeploy and being awesome, maybe even Jain Zar for her nifty banshee mask or Illith/a Spiritseer for shrouded.  The list in general has some obvious short comings (triple manticore and triple Drake could be rough), but I think it's got potential. Any thoughts about the list?
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 02 2013, 04:28

I think you are certainly on the right track with your build. It is actually somewhat more balanced than the list I last used. We of course, have quite a few common elements. I am justvstarting to explore top heavy HQs at 1850. It certainly shifts the list away from any sort of balance as you would know after your tournament experience. I rolled fortune in my match (which is hardly a given with one Farseer and i use spirit stones as well. I do want psychic defense. I have that one WK is just better than two Talos. I do like the Talos but they are painfully slow at times. The idea of dual beastpacks or beastpack and Seer council was certainly a consideration that i need one day to at least test.

The question is whether we want Eldar main or DE main - which really offers us the most flexibility and power. I went with Eldar main and so Karandras/Vect/Farseer becomes a feasible trio to field. I'm not sold on the Baron. Early on in 6ed the Baron and Eldrad were stock components to a beastpack list but times have changed with the advent of a few new codex.

Just to address characters - Bahharroth just doesnt have the punch, Karandras kills all, and monster hunter can make the razorwing flocks simply ridiculous against the plethora of monstrous creatures in the game right now. The Baron's 'hit and run' simply isnt that big of a deal for a beast unit, and it doesnt make up for his deficiencies overall, in fact for the beast unit I would probably take them in this order: Karandras, Jain Zar, Fuegan, Asurman, Bahharoth. The Farseer is probably not essential if you are using the beast pack with Vect/Karandras but it is hard to forgo the psychic buffs thay a Seer provides to the pack and the rest of the army. Those 140 points could be put to good use elsewhere so it is a tradeoff.

This is OrdoSean's list with dual beast pack ...

Asdrubael Vect – 240
2x 20 Warriors - 2 splinter cannons, sybarite - 420
2x 5 Beast masters, 10 kymerra, 6 razorwings – 540
2x 3 Trueborn – 2 splinter cannons – 112

Farseer – jetbike, spirit stone of Anathalin, Shard of Anaris - 170
2x 3 Guardian Jetbikes – 102
Wraithknight - 240

What we do know is that DE and Eldar AT is really expensive. So generally beast pack list just ignore AT. The WKs in assault are the best we have TBH. The other thing to note is that in a meta of Eldar/Tau we HAVE to go khymerae heavy. Whether you opt for 6 razors or heavier on khymeraes depends on your meta and whether you are fielding two flocks are one, IMHO.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 03 2013, 12:32

I do like the big warrior blobs, that many bodies is hard to wear away, especially when there's 100+ wounds of beasts running around.  I've never particularly been a fan of the min trueborn units though, I think spiders are much more useful and also much more scary.  No arguments that 1 Wraitknight is better than 2 talos, but it's more a question of, "Is 2 beastpacks and 1 knight better than 1 pack and 2 knights?"  The talos are mostly for support, they'll likely get ignored for the first few turns while beasts, knight and spiders are rushing the enemy, and (unless things go terribly wrong) later in the game they can be much harder to deal with.

I'm still a fan of the Baron, H&R isn't just useful to prevent getting tied up but for sling-shotting the unit across the board to hit whatever needs to die. Also I find his +1 for first to be better than Vect's 4+ seize, since there's plenty of mission where I'd prefer to go second.

With the release of the ridiculous new Dataslate things, some people are talking about moving to a single FOC for tournaments (ie: primary plus any allies must fit in one FOC), which I'm totally ok with.  My original list only needs a slight adjustment, which actually might make it stronger:

1850 Total
Baron
5 Warriors
5 Warriors
20 Warriors, 2 SCs, Sybarite
5 Beastmasters, 10 Khymera, 6 Razorwings
5 Beastmasters, 10 Khymera, 6 Razorwings
Talos, TL-LG, TL-SC
Talos, TL-LG, TL-SC
Farseer, Jetbike, Shard, RoWarding, Spirit Stone
3 GJB
3 GJB
9 Warp Spiders
Wraithknight
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 04 2013, 05:18

The list looks pretty good Bugs. It should play well on the table. But for now I'm on to a new topic.

- Be'Lakor - the new hotness -


So I proxied up a Be'Lakor and modeled up some khorne hounds ... see the pics
http://pheelixkat.imgur.com/all/
Yes I know the conversions are a bit OP, lol. So this is the list that I decided to test since I had all the models. So what does he bring (you should have heard by now but if you have not) ?

- Normal DP statline, but LD10
- 4++ Inv., Eternal Warrior no armor (not even a 6+), always shrouded
- ML3 and knows all Telepathy powers (Whaaaaa!)
- Fearless, he does not have instability
- Weapon is fleshbane, armourbane, S +1, master-crafted
- If any enemy unit fails a morale check, he gets an extra D3 warp charge

You might want to re-read Telepathy again because there are a slew of decent powers you can call on. Your regular DP can always take Biomancy now (I had been using Telepathy on him but with Be'Lakor about Biomancy is actually better. It makes all your DPs very tough to take out. Now my list was hardly tweaked. There really is nothing extraordinary OP about it. There is no Screamerstar (which could easily be used in place of the hounds). The list will simply dominate a lot of the current meta. Do note that Be'Lakor is also not at all afraid of Grav spam. Access to every single Telepathy power, guaranteed, and having the ability to cast both Invisibility and Hallucination in a single turn from time to time is huge in the hands of players more skilled than me. Terrify, Invisibility and Hallucination are game winners, as is Dominate if you get lucky at the right time. Puppet Master is very useful against the right target, and even Mental Fortitude has its uses, like getting Fateweaver back in the fight if he goes to ground. The first question you want to ask yourself when you build an army around Be'lakor is what do I want to turn invisible in this army? First choice always would be the Grimoire bearer methinks. In the lisrt i used it was always a tough choice to make, lol, as hounds eat up invisibility too but you can just groimoire those hounds if you like if Fatey is off table.

HQ: Kairos Fateweaver - 300 (warlord)
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch, Lesser Reward, Locus of Conjuration, Lvl 2 - 105 (divination)
HQ: Herlad of Khorne, Juggernaut, Locus of Fury Axe, of Khorne - 130
Troops: 15 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 135
Troops: 10 Plaguebearers of Nurgle - 90
Troops: 10 Plaguebearers of Nurgle - 90
Fast Attack: 15 Flesh Hounds - 240
Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, Demonic Flight, Warp-forged Armour, Grimoire, Greater Reward, Lvl 3 - 355 (biomancy)
HQ: Be'Lakor - 350
Troops: 10 Chaos Cultists - 50

Now I realize they are only four troops in the list but the three DPs work exceptionally well together. The tricks do not end with these three FMCs.. I terrified a squad with Be'lakor and got D3 warp charges, had an grimoired hound squad most of the game, an invisible DP or Fatey, and an endured Be'lakor/DP. It was pretty sick. I had so many choices each turn as to what I wanted buffed. When Fatey left the table (he came in and out) I had plenty of powers to dispense. I am sold on using Be'Lakor now. If you think because DE has poison he will be easy game think again. With endurance/grimoire/invisibility available every turn you can protect when you needed to although he will often enough psychic shriek and get into cc. He might not be the melee monster a mace DP is, he is better against the toughest MCs and infantry and will clear vehicles with ease.

Now the dual beastpack is probably one of the lists that can give this list some fits. They can certainly neutralize the hound pack and try and take out the troops arriving from reserve. This would be a real battle of attrition and I'm hoping to test them against each other in the future. I can see the match going either way. Against marine lists this list will tear a new one. Against Riptide lists it will compete very well ( I know I'll be using a least one puppet master). It does not really fear Necrons either (guaranteed terrify will be cast in that match up).

I'm going to try the list with screamers eventually and no heralds (replace them with Slaanesh DP for more super good psychic rolls). The screamers are for chasing down wave serpents (they hurt this list). It is amusing that players tend to forget that screamers were good long before the advent of the screamerstar - they were alweays great at taking out tanks and skimmers and continue to be good in 6ed. The list is vulnerable to skimmers 9they will shoot down be'lakor if enough dakka is focused his way) so the screamers are needed.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 06 2013, 18:56

So through two days of grueling discussions, immeasurable amounts of critical thinking, and ample supply of immature jokes....

Those denizens that frequent the Real Space Chat have compiled two lists.

We have all heard of the legends of the Galaxy. Names engraved in the very minds of every living being across the stars, and even upon those in the sick and twisted world of emotions. For every time there has been an unfathomable deed, these figures have meted out their incredible wills. These are the Named Characters of the beloved armies within the Warhammer 40,000 universe. These are the figures that leave lasting memories. There will always be the unforgettable events, and the legends that live in infamy. But alas, for every time the ever-changing Lord Tzeentch would scream in frustration "CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" there are those named few that even Failbaddon shakes his head in shame at.

Here is the first list, I present from the Chatizens....

The Worst named Character of Each 40k Army:

Adepta Sororitas- the astonishing living saint, Saint Celestine
Blood Angels- that Mortal Combat's Kano look-alike, Captain Tycho
Chaos Daemons- the mistress of misdirection and hiding her face, The Masque
Chaos Space Marines- the skin-pimp suit wearing fabulousness himself, Fabious Bile
Dark Angels- that solemn and shrouded delightful chap, Asmodai
Dark Eldar- the must-include army entry for the force organization of our hearts, Kheradruahk, The Decapitator
Edlar (CWE)- the hostess with the mostess and the 80's hairdo to match, Phoenix Lord of Howling Banshees, Jain Zar
Grey Knights- that champion of purity and something, Castellan Crowe
Imperial Guard- that sergeant who is technically at arms, Sergeant Lukas Bastonne
Necrons- the Rock-Em Sock-Em Robots drop out, Illuminor Zseras
Orks- proof not everything is like riding a bike, Wazdakka
Space Marines- marshaling in a new age of mediocrity, High Marshall Helbrecht
Space Wolves- evidence that even a much cooler looking old sculpt model can't save you, Ragnar Blackmane
Tau Empire- the most holy of cows, Space Pope himself, Aun'Va
Tyranids- the annoyance of being slightly hungry right before dinner, Parasite

And there we have it folks. Let the squabbling over who your favorite lord of suckiness begin. And if you do not see your favorite failure up there, let us know what you think.

Also stay tuned for the second list, "The Worst Units found in Each Army."

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 07 2013, 06:12

Not sure how I missed this discussion...but I agree for the armies that I know stuff about. I look forward to discussing supposed worst units...that is very hard to decide if looking for only one choice. Ive been busy lately but toon in this weekend as I give my thoughts on the wild ride that is 6th edition!

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PostSubject: why the game is broken    A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 00:07

the duckdrake's last word

I know in chat I said I would stick around until the thread garnered 10,ooo hits. But, I think it is time now to say my goodbyes. I appreciate that the thread is followed by a lot of TDCers and I'm humbled and probably not deserving of its popularity. However, to continue posting would be very self-indulgent on my part. I no longer have the time, energy and most of all the ambition to continue. So I apologize to those that might take this as a betrayal of trust. It is not. Let me attempt to explain why.

PT Barnum said 'a sucker is born every minute'. GW heard it loud and clear. Let me as honest as possible. GW is cash grabbing. We are not putting up any resistance. Quite the oppopsite. We are actually extolling some of the possibilities that now can be included in a standard 40k list. Really? You want to play against a flying revenant titan or a lord of skulls in an 1850 game? It's okay to port apocalypse units and weapons to 40k (looking at you D weapons). Well, then let's add some allied detachments to balance it out ( seriously - this is their thinking). You can field six riptides or you can field six storm talons, 3 storm ravens and three thunderfires. No? That does not balance it. Okay GW will add some OP characters and some new OP fortifications. That should work. No? Well then just fall back on as many forgeworld units as you can fit in your list. I know I sound pessimistic about the state of the game. I am pessimistic. I loved this game.

I'm not going to go into escalation. It is a niche game that will have a lot of WAAC gamers wanting to field their superheavies and forgeworld superheavies. If you enjoy 30k so be it. Bur beware ... EVERY GAME is now an "Escalation" game, because it's now standard 40k. You can create your own novelty events but GW has sanctioned this for standard 40k. I'm sure it will have fans. I just see GW allowing as much as possible to generate sales and ignoring any sensible approach to the game. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.

Imagine. This isn't exactly an original thought, but the solution to a broken unit isn't to break the game even further. Is Screamerstar and JetSeer councils broken? Yes. But including Super Heavys to counterbalance that doesn't fix the game. It just breaks it even more, and creates a far worse problem than what previously existed with these 2++ save units. All those D weapon Super Heavy's are going to end up becoming absolutely destructive to the meta, and not in a good way. And if you thought Jetseer councils were tough just wait until every Eldar player starts turning up with a Revenant Titan along with them and squads of windrider bikes as troops. And let me know how much skyfire you need to take out a Thunderhawk? It will certainly go after your skyfire units first and then what?

So I'm told I can play 40k with friends anyway I like ... No Dual FoC, no Codex: Inquisition, no Formations, no Supplements, no Escalation, no Stronghold. Am I the only one who feels 40k is getting a tad bloated. TBH, we knew that 6ed was a 'rock/papers/scissors edition. So GW now wabts me to buy all these extra trappings that are cut and pasted from other GW and Forgeworld offerings when just a FaQ would have done. They want to go and pourcase some of the models that have had poor sales. Nice.

And, BTW, codex Nids will come soon. I guarantee ( write it down now folks) that they will have cc monstrosties that eat riptides for breakfast and floss their teeth with WKs. After all it will balance out the game table, no. It will be a cc dex in a shooty meta so they will have to make those cc units OP to say the very least and if you think they will not ... well refer to PT Barnum once again.

Now maybe I am over-reacting to a lot of new changes. This is not uncommon for me. There are certainly ways to deal with dataslates, inquisition and super heavies but I'm am sure I don't like the direction the game is taking. DE loads up on haywire, Daemons on seekers with melta, Tau with fusion. Maybe I'm suffering from a general malaise. But even before all the new units were released and the new rule sets and supplements revealed, I felt the game was getting unbalanced. And making each new codex even more powerful seems an iffy and unproductive solution to the core issues of what is happening to the game mechanics in 6ed when all these random new powers, upgrades, weapons and units are added without thought or testing.

Now for casual and hobby play I've no problem with everyone making up their own conditions. Looks at MTG. It has a highly organized and standardized tournament scene, even its own pro-circuit, but has managed this whilst having a truly massive flexibility in deck design. They have a centralized leadership from the game makers and widely accepted game formats. We have now broken this in 'standard' 40k. Each event an organizer will have to discuss which FW is allowed, if any Super Heavies are allowed, what to do about dataslates and supplements, which fortifications one can bring. Each event will differ substantially as a result.

We don't have this for 40k. Perhaps the closest alternative format being NOVA? Getting everyone to agree even on what 'standard' 40k seems to be a challenge! Feast of Blades wants to ban grimoire - well that will kill daemon lists. Screamerstar is not winning tournaments. So lets just ban D wepons but not other super-heavies. Lets have dataslates but limit their usage. Let's cherry pick which supplements are kosher. Here is a shocker. There was never a balanced tournament scene. Good players constantly adapted and changed their lists and your standard run of the mill player constantly fell behind with an outdated list. Nothing has dramatically changed other than d-weapons which will be countered by puppet master only). Now I think Feast of Blades is on the right track but there are going to be a whole lot of players who will feel cheated by some of their bans. I have a friend who plays Orks. He loves super-heavies because now he can actually compete with stompas. The point is each army has its own agenda. The problem is that we now get to cherry pick the best units with allies, supplements and dataslates all in one list. So limit that.

So where am I at? I cannot create any lists because I'm simply not prepared to combat super heavies et all. I'm certainly not going tp propose a list that has no chance of winning at any event. I'm sucked dry. I don't have any answers. There are a lot of great TDCers out there smarter than me. If this thread survives one of them or a few of them will have to pick up the mantle of ownership. They have my blessing. I know there are quite a few TDC regulars who feel there is nothing wrong with the current state of affairs and will gladly offer up new ideas and promote new builds. And that friends is the duckdrake's last word. Thanks for the ride.


---


- edited for spelling and grammar  and to insert this -


are you prepared to face this? i'm not

HQ: Farseer: Jetbike, Singing Spear, Shard of Anaris, Mantle of the Laughing God 200
Troops: 4x 3 Windrider Jetbikes 204
Troops: 3 Windrider Bikes, Suriken Cannon 61
Heavy Support: 2x Wraithknight: Wraithcannons 480
Lord of War: Eldar Revenant Titan, 2 Pulsar, Revenant Missile Launcher  900

1850 ??? really ???? how silly is this ???

OR Option 2 use dataslate, inq and new fortifications

Farseer
5x 3 Windrider Jetbikes
3 Wraithknights
1 Riptide
2x 3 Broadsides
Firestrom Redoubt
Coteaz, 2 plasma cannons, acolyte

nearly as silly


Last edited by egorey on Tue Dec 10 2013, 15:42; edited 21 times in total
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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 08 2013, 04:02

I thank you Egorey for all your effort and time put into this thread. I am not alone in appreciating all your thoughts and enjoying your company and ideas here! I consider you a mentor and you helped me become what I would call a decent Dark Eldar player. I understand you (and a lot of other people's) concerns with GWs latest moves. To that end I am sorry you feel that way and wish you the best of luck bud.


I however will remain stalwart through this huge game shift we are seeing. The reason is that I play with friends, people who don't go out of their way to bring the game down. I prefer to play these games because they are simply put very fun for me. So I don't see the really ridiculous crap.

My articles will contain things on the new happenings and what I can gather about the more competitive space but mainly from "I'm here to have fun" without being overly ridiculous (which is tough to define, heck even I use a little cheese).

And as always I take an optimistic approach!
********************************************************************
********************************************************************

So my thoughts on Escalation...what a strange way to handle using those types of units in low point games. However, here is the key thing: we still have to use points. As long as these types of things remain point heavy (and monetarily pricey!), they will take away from other parts of the army. This is key, so the solution to truly avoiding these crazy super heavies and even the crazy super fortifications is to play smaller games. This isn't the greatest solution but its an easy one. I know I play 1850-2k games generally and so I am technically easily in range of seeing these crazy things. For super heavies in general, wyches will be key. HWG eat through those with ease though so we just might need to run more of those.

My one real big complaint at this time:
***My one real problem is the use of D weapons...the crazy ones that pump out 2+ D shots a single turn...those aren't really fair. If it was just 1 D-weapon shot per turn then MAYBE that would be fairer. D weapons are just too powerful for smaller games in my opinion.  The caveat to my complaint though is that you can take new fortifications options that actually can stop a D weapon shot.***


Despite all of this I feel like you will see most competitive environments and maybe even friendly games prohibit the use of super heavies...or at least prohibit D weapons. Yet between the new fortification stuff and the high price of the really ridiculous stuff this may all be doable. It will certainly be an interesting ride The other side of the coin is that there are bonuses to players who oppose those that use these super heavies. You get bonuses to help balance it out (bonuses to your warlord, ability to get more VP, and a bonus to seizing). So not all is lost persay so if people are having issues we can try to come up with stuff. For now I will assume none of us have a revenant titan laying around to use...haha.

*******************

I did buy the fortification book and there are lots of neat stuff in here. I'm not overly worried about huge fortifications as that is a lot of points to sink into something that still requires an army to benefit. I expect to see lots of turrets, promethium lines, and void shields starting to appear in games, which is fine as it gives armies new things to work with. Perhaps it can give us some answers to Tau and Eldar...though they could use these new gadgets as well. Imperial armies will find good uses with the Honored imperium terrain as well as they give some nice buffs. I plan on digging into these is much more depth as I comb through it in more depth and give thoughts for the uses we could use. I have a feeling there some nifty things we could try out!

I have a busy couple weeks coming up so I will post things as soon as I can!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 10 2013, 07:13

Quick Update: Sorry I'm really busy these days trying to get school work done before the holidays but dang there are a ton of exciting things going on in 40k land.

Escalation and stronghold assault an dataslates as written are completely ridiculous in upsetting the balance of the game. Even now I just read that Feast of Blades is going to enact a massive set of restrictions that will considerably change the game. As soon as I get some more time (grrr school) and hopefully with a shiny new blog format we will dive into all the changes, the tourny scene's reaction and potential things to consider with all these changes.

So hang in there for me, while I get through this week and hopefully type of something significant for everyone to read on my thoughts (among others) on the new state of 40k. In the mean time enjoy the holiday season and good luck with finals/midterms for those in school!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11 2013, 05:53

`Ello everyone! For those that do not know me I am a frequent lurker of the chat. With much prodding I am stepping out of the shadows and into the limelight.

So Ligolski had an idea for a Grot Star. Which led us to this list after an hour or two of chat time.

BEHOLD!!:

+++ GrotSTAR & BeastSTAR +++ 1842

Selections:
Dark Eldar 6th Ed (2010) (Allied Detachment) Selections: 750 Pts

+ HQ +
   * Baron Sathonyx

+ Elites +
   * 9man Grotesques w/ Aberration and Venom Blade
   

+ Troops +
        * 5x Warriors    

+ Fast Attack +
       * 5x Beastmaster        
       * 10x Khymerae Pack
       * 6x Razorwing Flock


Codex: Eldar 6th Edition (2013) (Primary Detachment) Selections: 1092
+ HQ +

   * Karandras, The Shadow Hunter
   * 5x Spiritseer 1w/Shard of Anaris, 1 w/ Spear of Teuthlas

+ Troops +
   * 3x 3man Windrider Jetbike Squadron

+ Fast Attack +
   *2x 8man Warp Spiders

This list makes use of several untis abilities:
Karandras: He is a beast in CC, he is a beast when close to anything, he gives Infiltrate to our grots.

Iyanden supplement to provide 5 spiritseers which will allow us to levy huge amounts of psychic abilities in whatever manner we decide to choose. We also take a Shard to provide fearless for Beast pack.

Baron: Gives our beasts hit and run, and stealth.

Grotesques: These allow us to have majority T5 to provide protection for our spiritseers.

Beast pack: These gives us the speed that an all foot army needs severly. The Khymerae make us resilient, and Razorwings mean we eat everything on a six.

Warp Spiders: These will be our stars. They will kill a Riptide in 1 turn ~5 wounds per turn Monofilament is amazing against slow units. They move ~15" a turn too!

Warriors, and WJS: Exist simply to take objectives, linebreaker, and that is it.

So how does this list work? First we put Karandras, Spiritseers, and Grots in unit, Beasts and Baron in another, and everyone else is spaced out, with everyone on the board at start. GrotSTAR will be infiltrated using Karandras. Seer with Shard will leave to join beast pack giving fearless. Beast pack will sprint to cover somewheres in the middle of the field getting ready for 2nd turn charge. Warp spiders will move forward and take care of high priority targets. Our troops will hide.

This list makes use of infiltration, and speed to setup a turn 2 CC situation with up to 4 units. This will allow a multicharge tactic to bog down the majority of their points for the rest of the game. It will also allow us to soak up overwatch with high T, or 4++ saves. Then attack with Warp Spiders to finish them off. I personally will not CC warp spiders unless a flyer comes on that I cannot attack. Although I doubt that most fliers will be able to attack Warp Spiders turn two so close to deployment zone.

This list should eat Riptides for dinner. Beast Pack, and Warp Spiders should easily be able to take a Riptide in a turn or two. Then on top of that we have 5 seers who can try to get Puppet Master which will make for a lot of enemies for the rest of your life.

The Demon list that Egorey has suggested may be our biggest problem though. However, warp spiders should be able to take a demon in 2 turns. Seers can DNW for Beasts, and Grots protecting them at least. In the end however it will come down to who rolls the best.

I am hoping to get a game in to test this army and to do some fine tuning, however I will have to wait until after Finals are done for this semester.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11 2013, 12:59

The other option we thought about was taking a farseer over karandras to try and get 4++ for the grots but ultimately decided that bei g close was more important. The spiritseer pack can be hilarious they are each ML2 and can really go to town buffi g or debuffing. If you face Tau you can go for puppet master and be hilarious.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 11 2013, 14:48

I've never seen any tournament rule that the IC infiltrate trick works (due to the timing of when characters actually join units pregame). Even without infiltrate it's still an interesting concept. With 10 Runes of Battle rolls, you'll likely get a quicken or two to help the Grots with their speed issues, and all of the other buffs besides fearless are pretty good for the unit as well (Protect is meh unless you get 3 or 4 of them, but jinx is still awesome). It's too bad you lose Conceal/Reveal for going Iyanden. My main concern is that you only have 4 units that actually do anything, and your biggest/toughest one is suceptible to getting bogged down (or out maneuvered if you don't get quicken). Also the only thing you've got that can hurt AV14 is the Spiritseers (or Karandras with the right buffs). I'm wondering if maybe dropping a few of the spiritseers for a wraithknight/more spiders/guardian blob might work better. If you get a chance to try it I'm definitely interested in hearing about how it does though. I've been playing around with Urien/Baron/Spiritseer/Grots and while it's good, it's got a few too many weaknesses to make the cut for a tourney, so I'm interested to hear how this unit fares.
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PostSubject: The Current State of the Game and Dark Eldar   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 12 2013, 22:22

Greetings TDC,

Unless you live under a rock or deep within the webway, you will have noticed GW has been releasing a ton of new rule sets as of late. These releases can be categorized into four sections: Inquisition, Dataslates, Escalation, and Stronghold assault. Each of these additions severely alters the force organization chart as we know it. However a more pleasant way to view each of these is that there are more options for each army now (in general...poor nids, until that new dex drops next month!). Of course you are probably asking more for specifics on each of these changes and I will give the low down on each one and its general effects on the game for Dark Eldar. In the future, we will delve into more specifics of these additions and how to use them and combat them. I am especially excited for some of the stronghold assault additions because they are readily accessible to us and offer some potentially fun things to bring to your game, especially in a non competitive environment!


Inquisition
So Inquisition is very interesting in that it resides outside the allied detachment as an Inquisitorial Detachment. This allows you to take an inquisitor of some sort and up to 3 elites from this mini codex. Every army but Chaos, Deamons, Crons, and Nids have access to Inquisitorial stuff in some fashion. Dark Eldar can use them but are Desperate Allies and thus suffer from those restrictions.

What will you see most? One word...Coteaz. For 100 pts he is pure awesome for many imperial armies especially Guard and SoB. He gives level 2 access to divination, anti deep striking abilities, and 3 servo skulls (impair scouting/infiltrators), allow you to reroll seizing (or force your opponent to reroll his), and lastly any warbands (those elite slots) he brings with him are scoring even if they are not your primary detachment (the only other way to have scoring warbands). He is cheap and adds some nice abilities.

I doubt you will much of the warbands but it is possible since they give you easy access to Land Raiders and Valkyries (the 2 best transports in the book, others are rhino, chimera, razorback). All you need is the minimum of 3 guys (as low as 12 pts total) to pay the penalty for a Land Raider...not too shabby. The warbands themselves can be fun and if you would like more info on these let me know. I can delve into a couple of the options (if you look back I talked about a couple things that sounded fun).

So what does this mean for us? For pure DE, Coteaz doesn't present much of a challenge for us since we don't deepstrike or scout virtually ever. If you do though watch out. If you land too close to him, he and his unit (god knows what he may be attached too) they immediately make an out of turn shooting attack against them...this can be used any number of times. So for the love of the webway...don't deepstrike near him!!!

As a last note, its very easy to field an Inquisitor simply as a 34 pt anti infiltrator unit. Simple as that.

Dataslates
Ok so this is something very much akin to the Inquisition. These sit outside the force organization chart as well and doesn't even interfere with the Inquisitorial detachment. Many see this as ridiculous but remember points are still a factor. The dataslates so far have been a single character (Be'lakor) and several formations. The formations are the same units that are found in normal codices but gain bonus rules for being fielded together and also don't count towards the FoC. As far as I know you can only take 1 dataslate, but I will let you know if I hear otherwise.

There are no dataslates directly for DE, though there is one for Eldar we could take (lots of wraith units). Ultimately, what this means is that people can have more riptides and larger airforces for Space Marines. Undoubtedly, more will be released over time (heck throughout this month alone!) so just keep your eye peeled for these.

I think the biggest change from the dataslates so far that needs to be talked about in a future post is Be'lakor. Egorey really likes him and supposedly he is a beast. I don't know enough to talk about him at this time, but we will give more info on him soon.


Escalation
This is without a doubt the biggest change to 40k hand down. Super heavies (SH) and Gargantuan Monstrous Creatrures (GMCs) are no in normal 40k. Furthermore this includes D weapons. If you are unaware what any of this think this: bigger tanks, more hullpoints, lots of weapons (all firing at different targets) and difficult to destroy as thus. D weapons though are the more worrisome inclusion in my opinion. They don't role to wound or penetrate...they auto remove models, wounds, and hullpoints. You get no cover saves, no invulns...nothing...stuff dies and there is no recourse (for the most part). Luckily these are generally no larger than a regular large blast template...but that still sucks. Furthermore, only a few of the vehicles have access to them in shooting form (there are a couple with D weapon close combat attacks). The greatest threat in the book is the Revenant Titan. Eldar and DE can take the titan and it is ridiculous. For a base 900 pts you get the ability to fire 2 D weapon large blasts at 2 targets (total for 4 shots). It can take another missile launcher super weapon which essentially means it is erasing 3 units a turn. It can move 36 inches and has holo-fields...which can actually deflect a D weapon shot. It is a beast and very hard to kill...nye impossible.

What do super heavies mean for DE? BRING OUT THE HAYWIRE. If your group ends up playing with these things all I can say is that more lances and definitely more haywire is needed in your list. Haywire will save your butt and can easily erase baneblades and stompas. If you end up facing a super heavy flier, I'm sorry. There isn't much that you can do as pure DE. You would need to use allied Eldar to even have a shot at bring them down. We have the easiest time dealing with super heavies in a quick manner if we can make it to them with a handful of wyches, but otherwise it will be tough. Use cover wisely and plan ahead as best you can to ensure you don't get obliterated. If facing D-weapons, keep your coherency maxed, use multi story ruins (he can only target one level) and pray he scatters a lot. There are also some fortification options that may help and we will mention these next.

Ultimately, dealing with super heavies really comes down to whether or not your gaming group will use them. Some groups will ban them, some will limit D weapons, but whatever the case we plan on exploring some options on how maximize your ability to destroy super heavies if you have to face them but retain some aspects of a take all comes (TAC) list.

Stronghold Assault
I love fortifications. They look awesome, and they add an extra element to the field. This new addition to the game updates buildings/fortification rules and adds more fortification choices including the Apocalypse buildings and wall of martyrs stuff. Furthermore there are rules for some pieces that don't exist as models yet, void shield generators and promethium lines, as well some add-ons that can go along with most of the fortifications.

There are two ridiculous fortifications that bring enormous guns/missiles to the game (vortex missiles and a str D weapon) that irk me do to their power and one has AV15...15!!! But anyways there are a ton more options and I think there are some valid choices in here for Dark Eldar. It's my plan to go through each choice now available and rate each one and give some thoughts on their potential use in a future post.

One of the new things I think we will see a lot of are the void shields. They offer additional protection in the form of a AV12 shield that needs to be glanced/penetrated to force down before you can shoot at units inside of them. You can have 3 shields for 100 points that can reestablish on 5+. If you want to pay 340 points you can get yourself 3 of these suckers along with a promethium pipe that turns flamers into torrenting weapons (though stuff hiding behind them could get damanged from some exploding pipes...)!

One of the other additions in the book (if you didn't already guess) is that you can field formations of fortifications for a single fortification slot. The only benefits with these is that you get multiple fortifications and you just have to pay all the points.

There are a lot of neat options in this book and I think its worth getting. I really look forward going through all the new things and enlightening everyone on what the book brings.

For DE, this book offers new options to protect our assets and potentially interesting late game moves. It also means we could face some tough nuts to crack. Lances will help here or just ignoring the fortification. Torrenting flamer spam could get really bad too for close up armies (like mine) but splinter cannons help here (so you can stay out of range).


*****************************************************************************
*****************************************************************************
*****************************************************************************
So I gave a very quick glance at all the new things in 40k. Mainly what this means is that armies we face can be more varied and even crazier than ever. We may need to face some hard core mech units which will require better and more reliable AT in your list. Keep an eye out for how your community reacts to these new rulesets and what they allow/disallow. I'd love to hear the restrictions or lack there of so we can figure out how the 40k community as a whole is taking these crazy additions to the game. As we process these changes further, we will give some sample lists designed to combat certain elements of these changes like SHs and super fortifications. My next big post will go through in detail on the fortification offerings and see where the goods lie.

Until then guys! May your slave pits runneth over and holidays be pleasant!

PS: I'm working on a direct challenge to grot star from a marine perspective, despite grot star being one of my favorite theory lists to have help craft!

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PostSubject: Dec. 22, 2013: Batrep! Ligs vs. Azrael   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 23 2013, 01:25

Happy Holidays everyone!

Today, Azrael and I setup for a showdown between the grotstar and beaststar list we came up with against my Red Scorpian/Ultramarine list I have presented in the past. We are using Vassal so it takes a while to get setup and playing since it's my first time playing with it. However I will present my list and the initial deployment and my thoughts on Azrael's deployment. I'll hold back on my thoughts on my deployment since we haven't started playing yet...don't want to give away my strategy just yet Wink

So here is my list:

Primary: Red Scorpians: Gives my tactical sarges the ability to take a narthecium (for free) and thus FNP though they can't go to ground

Librarian Ashwarawu (aka Magister Severin Loth rules, check FW pdfs)

10 tactical marines (melta bomb sarge, flamer, heavy bolter)
2x 10 tactical marines (plasma cannon, plasma gun) in razorback (heavy bolter)
10 tactical marines (flamer, heavy bolter, melta bomb sarge) in rhino

Land Raider Crusader (holds that tact squad w/o transport)
Thunderfire Cannon

Allies: Ultramarines
Grand Librarian and Chapter Master Ligolski (aka Tigurius)
5 scouts (snipers)
3 Centurion Devestators (grav cannons, omniscope)

Inquisition Detachment
Ordo Doesn't Matter Inquisitor (3 servo skulls)

TOTAL:1849 pts

So if you recall the plan is to put Tiggy with Loth with the centurions and beef them up and blow stuff up. Loth guarantees me abilities since I can choose them with him and for this game I choose Gate of Infinity, Telekine Dome, and Vortex of DOOOOOOOM! Tiggy rolled me prescience, perfect timing, and precognition (which is lame). I choose Loth's abilities based on what Tiggy rolls because I really need some sort of invuln save with the cent devs and since I failed to get it with Tiggy I choose to go with telekine dome. I think this is good list building in some essence as it ensures my strategy of beefing up the devs no matter what I roll with Tiggy for the most part which is nice. It's certainly a weird combo and this is the first time I get to test it. I'm hoping to get the Dev models for Xmas no matter what though because its hard to deal with all them MCs!

One of the neat synergies in my army is that the servo skulls help my deepstrikes (while also preventing enemy shenanigans if placed properly) and this combos with Gate of Infinity...which I will use as an escape hatch of sorts if needed. I maximize a lot into the tactical squads as they are the main unit that will be doing the moving and capturing and are super tough with that FNP (as long as the sarge lives). Generally I probably will not split the tact squads with razorback as they need the sarge to get the FNP. It's really an excuse to get some mobile firepower and in the instances where I don't mind splitting (against more stagnant armies) I can use it to transport the sarge and plasma gun forward. For this battle the list I am facing is a very much down your throat charge so I need to keep the squads together for that FNP. The rest is pretty standard stuff.


Anddddddd....BATREP time...well at least the deployment!
A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 SetupAzGame

So here we see our deployment. I will let Azrael go over all his psychic rolls (sooooo many) and his list. Az deployed first (choosing to do so).

Az deployed in a huge spread out line, putting a deathstar on either flank. I think in essence this was pretty smart as it means I can't castle to one corner to make them chase me. However, I think there were other smarter options for him. I think the grots should have been centered so they could go either way (since he is going first and doesn't know what my deployment looks like). This is important as they are slow. They did get a bonus 3" to their run from a spiritseer but they will have to slog it to my lines and they don't have fleet for those long distance charges that they will have to make. Beyond this, I think its really risky to leave the spiders so far out in the open. If I had chosen to seize they could be in trouble quickly. They are super powerful but still die if left in the open. Other than that I agree with the rest of his deployment, though I may have started the warriors he has in reserve in the back somewhere.

We should be playing tomorrow morning so stay tuned for updates.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 23 2013, 02:22

So my psychic powers were:

Farseer - Guide (Rolled and received Eldritch Storm chose primaris power.)
Eldritch Storm (Yes, I rolled it again.)
Fortune I needed this hence I rolled all 3 times to get it.

Spiritseer 1 - Quicken/Restrain
Mental Fortitude

Spiritseer 2 - Protect/Jinx
Embolden/Horrify

Spiritseer 3 - Empower/Enervate
Enhance/Drain

Spiritseer 4 - Destructor/Renew
Empower/Enervate


As for my deployment choice I will discuss those at a later time as well.



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PostSubject: Jan. 1, 2014: New Fortification Exploration   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 01 2014, 20:21

Happy New Year everyone!

Today I am going to explore the fortifications supplement as promised. Azrael is with family during the holiday season and will be posting a batrep of our game when he's back and ready!

So this will probably be a short review, but essentially I am going to go through the book and present ideas that have come to mind for use in DE or any of your armies! I will also point out neat things/changes that I find interesting for your consumption.



Change in Building Rules
-Buildings can be claimed...this means that you can fight it out inside a fortification and actually take control of a potentially important piece of the battlefield!
-You can now land your jump troops and skimmers on the battlements of buildings without a dangerous terrain test, which could be useful.
-Certain fortifications have the repel the enemy rule which means you can assault out of your fortification from access points even on a turn the building explodes. This can be really useful to hide an assaulting squad inside and have it pop out when its convenient.

Fortification Upgrades
These are very curious additions to fortifications. Depending on size, you can buy up to 3 upgrades per building part (if this is the case for your fortification). I feel that the neatest 3 upgrades though are the Escape hatch and the magos machine spirit. Escape hatch (25pts) gives you the ability to place a marker for disembarkation once the building is occupied. This becomes an additional access point once placed.

The magos machine spirit (30pts) makes a buildings automated fire, BS3, meaning you can put those people who would normally fire a gun somewhere else and not necessarily manning a gun!

The Void shield upgrade allows you to benefit from an AV12 shield that absorbs shots until it is either glanced or penetrated. The best part is that for 25pts you get one of these and you can restore it at the end of your turn on a roll of 5+.

Obstacles
Obstacles are another interesting addition and a lot of the fortifications can buy these and are fairly cheap. The obstacles are 6 inches in length and you have the option of tanglewire, barricades, and tank traps. Tanglewire gives you pieces of dangerous terrain, tank traps are impassable to tanks and dangerous terrain to bikes, and lastly barricades are just more 4+ cover. The tanglewire and tank traps are the most interesting obviously as you can use them to force movement and make things difficult for your opponent. Hide your shooty elements behind those tanglewires and make it difficult for your opponent to assault you!

Fortifications of Interest and Ideas

*Wall of Martyrs Defense Line*
Gives your models stubborn which could be really useful if you want to control a section of the board, however, by themselves they aren't very exciting. This is more useful for horde armies that need to hold ground.

*Firestorm Redoubt*
I think this has the most useful potential out of the wall of martyrs fortifications for DE as it gives us access to some crazy weapons. However, you will pay a premium but hey, its AV14...something we know nothing about!!! For 200pts you get 2 emplaced quad icarus lascannons...that's some nice AA that we just don't otherwise have in our basic list without allying Eldar. One thing I should note is that the redoubt must fire at the closest unit (flyer/FMC if a skyfiring weapon in range and line of sight, otherwise other closest unit).  So this isn't necessary a good thing but hey we can field 2 battlecannons...yes ordance for dark eldar that is good against vehicles and infantry. Upgrade with a void shield and magos spirit to make it more accurate (if not using battlecannons) and added resiliency for your units nearby.

*Vengeance Weapon Battery*
Similar to the redoubt, the weapons batteries allows DE to field some good firepower. This is the cheapest way to get these weapons into your army and it may just be worth it depending on how your list works. I feel that the lascannons are pretty amazing with some stellar range and hitting power against flyers.

*Void Shield Generator*
Well where do I start on this...amazing! 100 pts gets you 3 shields. There are many uses for this for many armies. Protecting your FMCs or fliers as they come in, protecting a foot slogging force as they march forward for the initial turns, protecting a firebase, etc. You will see these a lot I garuntee you. As such this is also a problem if we face these...we will need to rely on our lances which could be difficult if you don't field many of them (like me!). The other method would be to get within the bubble and wreck havoc via assault or close up fire fighting.

*****************
There are other fortifications but nothing that I care to talk about at this time. (I will admit I left out the D weapon toting fortifications because if you are playing with that kind of stuff, that is an entirely different conversation we will have at another time!) So I hope these little blurbs get your wheels turning with some ideas. I think I will try to come up with a list that will utilize one or more (there are combination of forts available) in a DE/Eldar list...something that isn't very usual Smile



Happy Holidays!
ligs

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 03 2014, 13:27

Just quickly ... nice write up. On the topic of void shield generators ... these I feel will be seen as near mandatory in tournament builds whether or not escalation SHs And Gargs are allowed ( if they are they become even more of an essential). Flyers are already a nuisance requiring us to incorporate tactics and elements in out list to defend against them. Skimmers (venoms, raiders and wave serpents) need to be taken out and with a void shield this means assault and weathering the storm of fire before you arrive or adjusting tactics to DS or scout to get there quicker. It needs to be mentioned that you can take out a shield or two and the generator can still restore a shield on a 5+. D weapons will only take out one shield at a time. So we have an AV12 barrier up that can save out skimmers, flyers and/or fire base now - this is quite strong.

So you might pass up on the generators if you feel you need AA in the form of a redoubt or a vengeance battery but at the extra cost of those I could as easily add a void raven/razorwing. So it does beg the question of why we are nor seeing them incorporated into more lists. The only true defense against the shields is to get inside of them. This requires a very aggressive element in your army.

On another note ... Ligs did not mention it but he destroyed AZ's DelDar list rather handily. It was not the inclusion of Loth/Tigerius so much as the raw strength of a dev cents. He did not even use that large a squad (a 5-6 man squad is totally OP). The only real question with dev cents is the mode of deployment and how you get them into position quickly. At mid table they are commanding. Do not underestimate the power of salvo grav and be prepared to deal with it. Worse still is when they get cover or rerollable saves, both obtainable with the right characters. Psycheer met them in his last game and the outcome was not good for his DE. Even venoms will be hard pressed to take them out. If you give them a character with H+R in a larger squad well ... lots of options.

I have a buddy who is using Tiggy w/cents, stormwing dataslate hop[ing for a libby with invisibility in the stormraven (lol), t-fires and the usual assortment of troops ... the list is very tough to defend against.


http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.ca/2013/12/codex-space-marines-centurion.html

(a nice little writeup on these guys)
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