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 A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 04:41

So I got the list for the next game from my Tau buddy. He is fielding his tweaked tournament list. Apparantly the list I played last week was the fun list, lol. This is his serious 1850 list ...

Farsight Enclave Primary - 1145

HQ - Commander - 152 (warlord with the suits)
Dual Missile Pods, Drone Controller, Target Lock, 2 Marker Drones

Elites - Riptide - 210
Heavy Burst Cannon, TL Smart Missile System, Earth Caste Pilot Array

Elites - Riptide - 210
Ion Accelerator, TL Fusion, Velocity Tracker, Early Warning Override

Elites - Riptide - 210
Ion Accelerator, TL Fusion, Velocity Tracker, Early Warning Override

Troop: - Crisis Suit Squad - 219
3 Crisis Suits, 6 Missile Pods, 3 Target Locks, 4 Marker Drones

Troop: Kroot Squad - 72
12 Kroot

Troop: Kroot Squad - 72
12 Kroot

Tau Detachment - 705

Ethereal - 50

Elites - Riptide - 210
Ion Accelerator, TL Fusion, Velocity Tracker, Early Warning Override

Troop: Fire Warrior Squad - 90
10 Fire Warriors

Heavy Support: Broadside Team - 255
3 Broadsides, TL Heavy Yield Missile Pod, TL SMS, 5 Missile Drones

Total: 1850

I am in for it. That list seems way to strong for mine. But I will play the Eldar way and see what happens. I sure can't get overly aggressive and I have to watch my range. Hopefully my WS and WK combo will cause enough damage early. I know I want to get the Ethereal out of the way early - without him his troops will run - but taking on four Riptides, meh. Happy he can only use one earth caste array ... that is a nasty Riptide ... and he is a little low on markerlight support but he might just have enough for this list. It really has no glaring weaknesses.


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 09:19

Take his, mostly fragile, troops out and hope not to be tabled by the rest of his army.

Four Riptides?!

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A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 YhBv3Wk
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 14:22

how is he allying another tau army? I thought that was against the rules.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 15:08

ligolski wrote:
how is he allying another tau army? I thought that was against the rules.

For some bizarre reason GW decided that Farsight Enclave armies can ally with Tau Empire armies and it's causing no end of problems, I can tell you!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 15:34

I'm guessing the same could be said of any supplement then?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 15:42

ligolski wrote:
I'm guessing the same could be said of any supplement then?

AFAIK, the Iyanden supplement did not say they could ally with Codex Eldar. Seems to be unique to the Farsight book at the moment.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 16:24

sounds like a load of BS to me...that ridiculous...oh well...as to defeating riptides...venoms sound better in this instance (poison in general). You sure you want to use pure eldar?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 16:32

With a 2+ save and 5 wounds each there's no way even a Venom spam list will take them all down

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 17:46

its like a squad of terminators, it takes weight of fire. The WK's will help a ton though for sure. Whats the toughness of a riptide?

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 18:09

No its not like a squad of terminators. Terminators move 6" and shoot 24" or none (apart from cyclone) and when you shoot terminators each wound reduces their efficiency. I tried a few times to down 3 riptides with my night shield Venoms but its ravagers that have best chance of taking them down.

WK is a different matter all together. But you need sixes more that bad Necron army:D 

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 29 2013, 18:21

i was only getting at the fact about wounds and saves. Of course movement and such is different.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 31 2013, 04:19


- dissecting the four Riptide list -

So people fully understand the threat of Riptides do note that they can  - and smart platers will - nova charge for the 3++. We have Tau players here that do it all the time. Taking down a Riptide with 3++is extremely hard. Even a charging WK only has a 50/50 shot at it (it will take overwatch coming in too). So you volume of bladestorm or distort weapons are Eldar's best bet. But do I want to spend 6 turns trying to down them expending all my fire power? His Broadsides, Crisis team and FW will be happy to let me try. And the Riptides will still be firing every turn. No. I have to go for and first blood, ethereal, the troops and warlord in that order. Then I can think about the Riptides. Wks can hurt Tau - we know that. But I need them to do more than try and take out four 'Tides. This is a game where I feel I will be sorely tested. The 3++ is up when you feel that a particular Riptide is in danger. Ion Riptides do not need to overcharge for anything. Numbers are the problem in a 4 Riptide list. We know good opponents will target your ethereal first ... then your troops. That said it is still a pita to play against. Riptide can use 3 S7 ap 2 or S8 ap 2 large blast, the SMS/Fusion/Plasma and still get the 3++. What is interesting though is that the Riptide is pretty meh and a mech list. Crisis suits and Broadsides are actually better. Now if the 3++fails and it will 333% of the time on 75% of the Riptides ( assuming one has earth caste), a WK will destroy a Riptide in cc.



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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 31 2013, 04:29

How crazy would assaulting a riptide with a wraithknight be? Stat wise the WK is superior especially with the ability to go first. I'm not sure how mobile the riptides are played but it could be fun and effective.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 31 2013, 13:07


A Wraithknight should win but  ... he does the most damage on the charge. After that assuming your Riptide has 3++ up it is a very close combat. And on the charge you always hav a chance to overwatch, if you are careful placing your Riptide the WK always has a chance to miss his charge, etc. Now the good thing is if the Riptide does not get 3++, you can cause it to flee and you can sweep. It is a gamble for sure but the combat is not as one sided as people tend to believe. If the 3++ is up the Riptide actually does .833 wounds with 2 smash attacks per round, so you aren't quite as likely to win each round. The WK is often doing less wounds. But it is the I5 vs I2 on a fear and sweeping advance test where the WK has an advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 06 2013, 22:47

update Aug 6th

So I played my final test game against the four Riptide list. Here is the thing about Rip[tides - they are near impossible to kill if they roll well on their nova charge and get their save. Here is what they are bad at - shooting with ion accelerators and their BS. Because he needed troops and he spent so much on suits and riptides he really was short on marker lights. That was the difference in the game and my Seer was also quite amazing rolling dominance and psychic shriek and guide. Two Wave Serpents went down eventually but not until my shields and bladestorm did fair damage. My  vypers were good but in this match up dual shurikens would have been better. So handling the MCs was tough but I did manage to take out two by games end and tie up the remaining two late game with my WKs (both survived the match). I eked out the victory by getting first blood, warlord and taking an extra objective. I concentrated on troops for the first four turns ( went six ). I targeted the ethereal, then the marker lights then the incoming Kroot. I think a four 'tide list could work but he made a few errors in deploying and prioritizing and that helped me a lot. So I was happy overall and it was a long hard fought game.

So unit by unit -
WKs - They are strictly the bomb against Tau. There were no units that can take out a WK in a round of shooting or in cc. Just keeping a foot in terrain ( this is really essential) and then moving to engage makes these guys very formidable in this match up.
Guardians and Dire Avengers - Do not underestimate the power of bladestorm. Yes they are fairly fragile. But a few rounds of shooting will decimate almost anything. In fact I've played with a lot of diferent units over time and these guys are now a bargain for their cost.
Vypers - I did not get full value from my Vypers against Tau. They were decent enough against the suits - broadsides and crisis - mobile and with a fair output. But I configured them for AT and his list did not favour my load out. I could see them shining though in other match ups. They are fragile. They went down when he decided to target them as they were a nuisance but that was okay - it left my other units free to fire at will.
Wave Serpents with Ghostwalk Matrix and Holofields[/b] - I will say that if points allow never leave the Matrix off your serpents. There is no reason not to use them. Wave Serpents are tough but you need to time when to sit back and when to get aggressive. If you are out of range of his heavy dakka then shields are amazing. When you decide to go forweard and get up close and unload your troops don't fire your shields but use your matrix to make it difficult on your opponent to get to your troops and serpents. Overall these guys are the best transorts I've used in awhile. Being accustomed to raiders and venoms it was nice to actually have a ride that did not go down in a turn of shooting nfd that still had reasonable firepower. I had a BL on one seropent. It was okay but again I had a few too many heavy weapons in my list for a match up against Tu. That said in a TaC list I think the extra BL could be useful.
SeerTaire - Once again Telepathy proved its worth. I did not even roll the best powers. Dominance was useful - it negates a Riptide when needed so I can comfortabley asault with my WK but psychic shriek was mediocre (swapped out terrify). Guide is golden. The Farseer is near unkillable. He added much more to this list then a Autarch would have. So I was pleased. He never had to assault this game ( he can take out a transport or finish off a squad occasionally). He was strictly used this game to cast his psychic powers.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 00:59

well done bud! i too had success with my WK over the weekend it blasted apart tons of stuff and earned its points back easily and never died! I had to face a WK and a dreadknight in one game. Since my WK had an invuln it easily despatched his in assault even though draigo was there ( big gamble). and thanks to all my high T units my warriors were ignored and easily smote the dreadknight. WKs are truly jacks of all trades since they are good in CC.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 04:09


How did your your WK get an invuln ... was it from a Seer? I never had one but they were still excellent in this match up. Of course if you face weapons that cause instant death and bypass your regular save ... well ... but I did not. Now I found my bladestorm near invaluable in this match up. It is shocking the number of wounds even ten guardians and twelve DA can spit out.

Overall, having played Eldar alone, DE/Eldar, against Tau/Eldar and then Farsight/Tau I would have to say my DE/Eldar were the best TaC list but Tau/Eldar overall is probably about as good as you get now. There are just so many strong combinations and synergies you can run with.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 07 2013, 13:32

I paid the price and took the suncannon and shield. I also had a seer to heal wounds on the WK using the Wraithforge Stone from the Iyanden supplement. The suncannon was well worth the investment at this level of points. I was able to mess anything up. I used it to pop the Medusa on side armor turn 1 and blow out marines, guard squads, etc. The invuln was also great for the amount of low ap weapons I was facing. It certainly increased the effectiveness of the WK by allowing me to play up close and personal and assaulting anything and everything I could.

My Eldar opponent didn't take advantage of his troops instead investing all his effort into his pallies and draigo which was a big mistake. Like you said bladestorm can be really impressive.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 09 2013, 14:01

-- tactical notes on the random nature of the game --

So 6th edition can dramatically change the way you deploy your forces, the way you use your list and the outcome of any given battle. Let's examine what I'm talking about ...

== SeerTaire DelDar 1750 ==

Eldar: 1252

Farseer. Jetbike, Singing Spear, Mantle of the Laughing God 160 (warlord)

3 Windrider Jetbikes 51
3 Windrider Jetbikes 51
10 Guardian Defenders, Scatterlaser, Wave Serpent, TL Brightlance, Holofields, Ghostwalk Matrix 255
10 Guardian Defenders, Scatterlaser, Wave Serpent, TL Brightlance, Holofields, Ghostwalk Matrix 255

Wraith Knight 240
Wraith Knight 240

Dark Eldar: 496

Haemonculus, Liquifier Gun, Power Axe 75

4 Wracks, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons, Nightshields 115

6 Reaver Jetbikes, 2 Heat Lances, 1 Caltrops, Arena Champion, Venom Blade 191

Ravager, Tri-Lance, Nightshields 115

Here is a simple enough list. I want to believe that my cover saves, reserve manipulations, nightshields, tough serpents and WKS and excellent psychic buffs will win me games. But can I rely on any of those factors?  I think people tend to forget how random the game can be. What can go wrong often does go wrong and when you need to roll well that is when you roll poorly, lol. So you need to at least try and account for the basic structure of 40k -  a dice rolling game.

1) In a TAC tournament i can guarantee that there will be lists that ignore cover, lists that nerf psychic buffs, lists that mess with my reserves, and lists that can alpha strike me. There will be lists that laugh at MCs without invulnerable saves. So what am I relying on in my list. Is there an aspect of the list that will destroy my game plan if it fails? I better have enough redundancy. Let's try and compensate for whatever random lists I might face. Notice that I have spread out my heavy firepower between quite a few different units. Everyone expects SLs on Serpents ... mine have BLs. However, my guardians will pose a serious threat at >24" and can get into that range comfortably with a serpent fitted with a matrix.

2) So assuming I have redundant firepower in my list ... you know I have shot at targets with both guide and prescience up and still have not eliminated them. I shot at a Trygon who weathered an army full of shots and lived to take apart three of my squads. Dice are random. But here is what is not random ...

- We can premeasure. This is vital to my plans with my list. It is a mobile list that relies on getting into the right range and hopefully setting up to make it difficult to retaliate.I knowe i can move my skimmers and then disembark 6" and then shoot. I know the rules for  battle focus so if If I measure carefully I can disembark from transports, fire then run out of assault range. Charge distances are random. This helps me here. I can position my reavers not to be in assault range as well and use jsj to my advantage. So my guardians will kill 4 marines when shooting and then another if they try to assault (overwatch). I think I can reliably get out of my transport as long as I have another unit to either block a charge or finish a squad of.

- So what about psychic buffs ... well ... I cannot rely on fortune anymore. So what do I take? I can go safe and just rely on prescience and guide ... these are guaranteed. Or I can go telepathy on my seer and hope for either dominance or puppet master to screw with my opponents plans. If I go telepathy i want to be sure that I have targets I can use psychic shriek on. I want to know if I roll invisibility it might actually be of use. Ravagers are notorious at just not hitting their targets. Guide/prescience is a godsend that is not random.

- Setting up FNP for my DE contingent can be a little tricky at times. But I want my pseudo-invulnerable save for my reavers especially. So what can I do? I can know the rules. I can weaken a target and then turbo-boost in my SHOOTING phase to finish said target off. I can add a caltrops for insurance. I can include haemie in my wrack squad to get them FNP as well. This will not eliminate random results but it will mitigate them.

- I cannot say how often in 5th my AT failed me. Now with the glance rules I have the double benefit of my vehicles being hardier and being able to galnce to death my opponents vehicles where in the past i often failed to pen and explode them. For a fast mobile list like mine this is very important. So I bring along enough dakka to ensure at least a few positive results. I bring along lances to ensure that Nec shielding can hopefully be bypassed. Etc., etc.

- I want first blood, line breaker and slay the warlord. I do not want to lose HQs ... I have choices. I can take a Seer without the mantle and then put him in a grouping where challenges can be excepted by a warlock and the squad is large enough that Look out sir protects him. Or I can outfit him with a mantle. See, choices and insurance to help mitigate random results.

- Jink saves, nightfighting, etc., all benefit my list but i cannot be ensured that it always plays a part. I can ensure that key units use BLOS though. I can ensure that I have the correct range to avoid fire and the correct range for my units to fire on their target. I can use the tricks available to me ... speed, jsj, nightshields, terrain.

- Don't be inflexible. Be prepared to field your list with and without placing a unit in reserve. Souperdave and Mush have advocated using reavers in cc when that is the best route. Of copurse you don't want to use them that way if their is a better choice but don't be afraid to do so. The farseer is used for psychic buffs, correct? Well, what if I choose to use him for AT to rid myself of an irritating transport or tank? Why have a singing spear and not use it? Do the unexpected. It can be rewarding and confusing for your opponent.

- No need to be conventional. Certainly there is no question that I'm not taking advantage of some of DE's or Eldar's strengths ... look no beast packs, grots, warp spiders, raiders. warlocks, etc. Now 6th edition favors fleet, cc, charges, etc. I went a different way with my list.  I chose to be annoying, lol. Lots of dakka, reserves coming in late to grab objectives, etc. My style.

- Let's get to my favorite subject ... spamming and specialist vs generalist units. Specialists generate more bang for the point, but are less forgiving of bad placement/movement. For this reason many players prefer a generalist unit that is more flexible and forgiving. I like a bit of a hybrid list myself. This touches on whether or not we wish to spam one unit in out list. Spamming a specialist AT or AA unit ensures you will have that available but at what cost? Would I rather have different units that are a bit more generalist still allow for adequate redundancy and not be as dependent on placement and deployment? Do you advocate Venom spam or Wave Serpent spam. Do you use three WKs when only one or two should suffice? Are you going to fill all your troop slots with windrider bikes and rely on fast attack and heavy support to win the game for you?

Well, really it is not anything new. It is just looking at a list and seeing what can be done with it under different scenarios and against differing lists. Understanding that your initial game plan needs altering once you see your opponent's list and understanding that in a game of dice with random results you need to plan form both the best and the worst results will help. Stay mission oriented, look to mitigate weaknesses in your plan and have fun.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 10 2013, 16:10

What I really want to run is Vect, Haemie and seven wyches with heckatrix on a dias. I would add 95 point wrack/venom squads and some razorwings and ravs and maybe some reavers and call it a day. But I'm not that brave and do not have a dias so ...

The DMC

Primary: 1253

HQ: Haemonculus, Liquifier Gun, Power Axe 70 (Warlord)

Troop: 4 Wracks, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons, Nightshields, Grisly Trophies 120
Troop: 5 Wracks, Liquifier Gun, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons, Nightshields 140

FA: 9 Reaver Jetbikes 3 Heat Lances, 1 Caltrops  269
FA: 9 Reaver Jetbikes 3 Heat Lances, 1 Caltrops  269

HS: Ravager, Tri-Lance, Nightshields 115
HS: Ravager, Tri-Lance, Nightshields 115
HS: Razorwing Jetfighter, Flickerfields 155

Allied: 522

HQ: Farseer, Eldar Jetbike, Singing Spear, Shard Up Ur Anus 160
5 Warlocks, Eldar Jetbikes, 2 Singing Spear 260

Troop: 3 Windrider Jetbikes 51
Troop: 3 Windrider Jetbikes 51


Match upcoming against FishDar ... I will have revenge. Now I did not tailor anything for the match up. This is my standard Deldar Motorcycle Club list that I use on occasion. I stopped using it when I faced two GK stormravens and lost my council turn two, lol. I know it is low on troops but that has yet to hurt me. Now 30 bikes are not all that many for a bike list but it's enough for a solid core.

So I got my opponent's list ...

FishDar

Tau: 1502

Ethereal 50
Mark'O commander, dual missile pod, iridium armour,  neuroweb system jammer, target lock; drone controller; 2 marker drone 179

6 Stealth suits, 4 burst cannons, 2 fusion blasters, target lock, positional relay, counter fire defence system 230
6 Stealth suits, 4 burst cannons, 2 fusion blasters, target lock, positional relay, counter fire defence system 230

11 Fire warriors, Devilfish, disruption pod, sensor spine 199
12 Fire warriors, Devilfish, disruption pod, sensor spine 208
10 Kroot, Sniper rifles, 1 Kroot hound 75
10 Kroot, Sniper rifles, 1 Kroot hound 75

2 Piranhas, fusion blasters  100
2 Piranhas, fusion blasters  100
4 Marker drones 56

Eldar: 248

Farseer, jetbike, singing spear 120
Warlock, jetbike  50

4 Windrider jetbikes, shuriken cannon  78

Seems not to terribad ... not a lot of ignore cover weapons ... that is really good for me. We will see what transpires ... lmk, who how you think it will go, lol, and we will see who is right.


Last edited by egorey on Mon Aug 12 2013, 17:35; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 11 2013, 13:43

- general tactical notes on DE -

I'm going to repeat what I posted on dakka to put the DE match up in perspective.

There was only a 'pseudo' easy win window for DE in 5th with the new codex. Suddenly venom spam became all that and more. Before the new codex arrived DE were regarded as second tier. It seems if an army takes a little thought and tactical expertise to field it is second tier, lol. In the old codex there were a number of quite powerful synergies and builds. You just had to work at finding them and then practice using them.

So along came 6th. You know early in 6th wraithwall and beast pack lists did quite well competitively. The first few times I played beast pack lists I simply failed by not understanding the nuances of the pack. Then I caught on and started winning regularly ( with a little coaching help from Sean). Allied lists with DE/Eldar were always in the mix and more often then not spoilers. Now suddenly Eldar and Tau get new codexes and DE are no longer viable? Eldar can be used to enhance our lists. If they improved great. If I'm still guaranteed a useful psychic boost, if seer councils still work, I'm happy.

Here is the crux of it ... if you are playing a DE army you need to be aware of three criteria ...

1) Target priority ... we are not a forgiving army. Focus your firepower on units that are not immediate threats and you will lose.

2) Positioning is the second part of the equation. You had best realize early on how to get your forces in a position where they do the most damage while mitigating the return damage. Seems self-evident but this where I see a lot of players fail at mastering DE. PRE-MEASURE a lot.

3) Deployment can break or make your game. Not reserving or reserving ... leaving key units open to alpha strikes but not maintaining distances (remember we can pre measure now), misunderstanding when BLOS is needed instead of relying on cover saves ( so many ignore cover weapons out there), etc., etc.

Saying that an army is complex and difficult to play is not the same as saying the army is not competitive. It certainly can be. But DE are an improved list this edition. They are not worse, they are better. So I feel have some hope going into my match with FishDar even though I've yet to beat them. His list is unconventional. He is using positional relay, outflanking, infiltrate to make it very hard on my positioning and deployment turn one if I end up going second. He is not a fan of MCs ... he finds that they fall easily to some lists. My AA is useless. He is fielding a list he would probably not take to tournament (no AA) and yet it still might work ... to beat flyers you load up on AA or you simply ignore them and pursue your mission.

So I can guess his general game plan from his list. He is going to move the devilfish together most likely to block of any attempts to easily assault his FW. Since my units all have cover saves anyway he will not be concerned that he shoots through cover. So he will attempt to control the central portion of the table and use his Seer to buff. Now depending on terrain he will most likely both infiltrate and outflank this game with Kroot and Stealth. This can be a problem for me if I go second as I'm not getting jink or turbo saves. If I go first I can go after his vulnerable units immediately and try and take out immediate threats. Reavers are going to be key as they can turbo over either stealth or kroot but he is bound to GtG to mitigate casualties.

So you see the trend ... how do we position and deploy to counter my opponent's list? What do I choose as priority targets in his list? What units are left in reserve  - either going first  or going second? I would be most interested in your thoughts on this matter. How would you plan your attack? My game is not for a few days still ... post and add to the conversation.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 11 2013, 16:14

I have to say this is such an insightful thread. It's like your mini blog egorey. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 12 2013, 05:18

egorey wrote:

What I really want to run is Vect, Haemie and seven wyches with heckatrix on a dias. I would add 95 point wrack/venom squads and some razorwings and ravs and maybe some reavers and call it a day. But I'm not that brave and do not have a dias so ...

The DMC

Primary: 1253

HQ: Haemonculus, Liquifier Gun, Power Axe 70 (Warlord)

Troop: 4 Wracks, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons, Nightshields, Grisly Trophies 120
Troop: 5 Wracks, Liquifier Gun, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons, Nightshields 140

FA: 9 Reaver Jetbikes 3 Heat Lances, 1 Caltrops  269
FA: 9 Reaver Jetbikes 3 Heat Lances, 1 Caltrops  269

HS: Ravager, Tri-Lance, Nightshields 115
HS: Ravager, Tri-Lance, Nightshields 115
HS: Razorwing Jetfighter, Flickerfields 155

Allied: 522

HQ: Farseer, Eldar Jetbike, Singing Spear, Shard Up Ur Anus 160
5 Warlocks, Eldar Jetbikes, 2 Singing Spear 260

Troop: 3 Windrider Jetbikes 51
Troop: 3 Windrider Jetbikes 51


Match upcoming against FishDar ... I will have revenge. Now I did not tailor anything for the match up. This is my standard Deldar Motorcycle Club list that I use on occasion. I stopped using it when I faced two GK stormravens and lost my council turn two, lol. I know it is low on troops but that has yet to hurt me. Now 30 bikes are not all that many for a bike list but it's enough for a solid core.

So I got my opponent's list ...

FishDar

Tau: 1502

Ethereal 50
Mark'O commander, dual missile pod, iridium armour,  neuroweb system jammer, target lock; drone controller; 2 marker drone 179

6 Stealth suits, 4 burst cannons, 2 fusion blasters, target lock, positional relay, counter fire defence system 230
6 Stealth suits, 4 burst cannons, 2 fusion blasters, target lock, positional relay, counter fire defence system 230

11 Fire warriors, Devilfish, disruption pod, sensor spine 199
12 Fire warriors, Devilfish, disruption pod, sensor spine 208
10 Kroot, Splinter rifles, 1 Kroot hound 75
10 Kroot, Splinter rifles, 1 Kroot hound 75

2 Piranhas, fusion blasters  100
2 Piranhas, fusion blasters  100
4 Marker drones 56

Eldar: 248

Farseer, jetbike, singing spear 120
Warlock, jetbike  50

4 Windrider jetbikes, shuriken cannon  78

Seems not to terribad ... not a lot of ignore cover weapons ... that is really good for me. We will see what transpires ... lmk, who how you think it will go, lol, and we will see who is right.
ok so take two at the advice because I missed a bunch...

1) Kill the devilfishes first if you can, you want to limit his mobility.
2)Priority 2 is to kill off the marker drones...you need your cover!
3) Use venoms to get wracks up close and personal with the stealth suits if conveinent, otherwise just let it rain venom. The wracks have liquifiers making short work of them (i think).
4) I'm assuming his jetbikes will be in reserve so ignore them until later, they won't do too much I feel except be annoying and take an objective.
5) Protect your reavers, use them to bladevane things in cover where they get at least reduced cover from bladevaning. Otherwise I feel like you should probably keep at least 1 in reserve and go for vehicles to kill off their mobility.
6) Protect your troops well you don't have many at all.
7)Use your razorwing to take out infantry squads, don't be afraid to just let rip because that is all it does. Those missile will ruin them.

So there are my main ideas. Ignore the HQ guys if you can because they are just a pain and not a priority. Chop out their mobility and I think you can do this.

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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 12 2013, 17:07

This is how I see it ... after analyzing a lot of advice on chat and knowing the way I generally go about preparing for a match ...

1) he cannot be allowed to advance and dig in and control the centre of the board
2) i must reserve reavers and razorwing and windriders (unless i go first and then a squad of reavers can start)
3) i will bait with the ravagers and then turbo and hit an open flank
4) seer council will get into assault as quickly as possible (they can take out stealths)
5) Bladevaning, cc and and prioritizing are key (priotritizing will be tricky ... he has a MTO (multiple targets of opportunity) list. So how he chooses to deploy, whether I go first or second, how well I survive the first turn alpha strike and what is left for me to respond, all come into play).
6) I expect the first two turns to be crucial. If I can survive with minimum casualties and stop an advance I should have an excellent chance of winning
7) my ability to avoid those markerlights (I need my cover) find BLOS and use JSJ will be critical

The windrider bikes could well win the game by snatching late turn objectives. But I will need to take out those Dfish early and deal with his infiltrated troops.

Now despite having formulated a plan with the help of many TDC members, I fully understand that everything could easily go awry if I make any errors positioning and deploying. I'm also quite sure he has his own battle plan (a wily old veteran he is) and so I cannot assume anything.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 14 2013, 00:54

-batrep update aug. 13th-

I'm so happy that I do not have to sleep with my Tau buddy's ugly girlfriend out of spite. The game went quite well for the jetbikes in the end. I did get first turn. This was huge. It meant I could bladevane over one squad of stealth and assault the other ... I sent in my seer council praying not to take too many overwatch wounds (lost one jetbike). My venoms targeted his markerlight squad and my rav did very okay against his piranhas ... did not think they would but I managed to take two out with prescience/guide - I was lucky on my third power - forewarning. So it was decent turn one. But the game was far from over. I also targeted his markerlight squad with the venoms but failed to remove the commander and two marker lights. Still I rolled way above average.

He had a seer and warlock and bikes with really good saves too and he also got prescience/guide/foreboding making that jetbike squad pretty good. His markerlights wee also still in play. He moved up his Dfish and unloaded his FW making sure to block off assaults (he knew the council was still a threat. So the game continued ... he moved his markerlights ( so he could not fire them this turn) so he had a view of most of my units. His drones, fish, surviving Stealth, a squad of Kroot ,FW and Piranhas took out both venoms and hurt my reaver squad.

Turn two set the game for me though. My Razor arrived and a squad of bikes ( meh) wanted the reavers left in reserve. The razor fired his missiles at the FW with ethereal and they were hurt rather bad.  My Seer council headed for a kroot squad to be in cc and avoid makerlights and my reavers finished of the Stealth gaining FNP. Dual ravs with guide prescience took out ONE DFish only. Bah. But it was enough to cripple him.

The rest of the gamne went well despite a good try on his part using his Seer to buff and outflanking some Kroot and using his remaining FW with guide to do damage. Pretty much lost a reaver squad and some wracks and he hurt my rav ( down to 1 HP). But that was it. I targeted his markerlights, jetbikes and remaining kraut squad to ensure he was not winning on objectives or taking linebreaker and I was able to slowly whittle him down by turn five when we rolled and the game ended. Best was balsevaning his remaining markerlights and commander ( woot) getting slay the warlord and multi assaulting  his Dfish and FW with my seer council (they had prescience/forewarning)

So I lost my venoms, a reaver squad, a wrack squad, a ravager, two beer, had a remaining rav with a single HP, and had only 3 plus seer in my council. Still left me with lots of units on the table. That was hardly enough for my opponent to win.
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