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 A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 11 2013, 22:15

I originally was thinking flamers but went to gravguns since they should get close to things to get to objectives. I will probably be playing against marines so I would say plasma would also be ok to use as well.

Your list is very interesting to say the least. You are hurting a little bit for dakka and i think ud have some issues with yacht club cuz you will lose your transports quickly. cant wait to see how it goes!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2013, 13:18


Looks pretty decent to me, Seer. I see he baron and farseer are going with the beastpack so divination probably on the farseer after rolling to see if you get fortune first. Five transports is okay for sure. I see plenty of dakka. You are a bit weak on AA but the WK can be prescienced and wave serpents can flyers too. You have AI/AT. So as long as you do not encounter heavy flyer lists you seem okay. I think you will enjoy playing the list.

I have no problem with grav guns - I just do not see the need in a DE list that has the tools anyway to deal with the units that grav excels at. I think Lig just wants to use Tiggy, lol. And why not. The list is a bit awkward - need to be aware that these guys are not battle brothers at all times. I'll be interested to see the game results.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 12 2013, 23:47

Well the results are in and unfortunately I lost. It was a super close game. We played Emporer's will (which hurt me severely in the end I feel). I certainly could have won with better dice rolls at key times and not making a couple mistakes. I had only a small annoyance at the 6" that I needed to keep.

My first problem was that with Tiggy I somehow managed to not get the 4++...that right there made the entire idea of tiggy and his sternguard moot (I ended up using plasma instead of grav which was a good choice). Turn 3 my friend had his sternguard pop out of his stormraven where he popped tiggys rhino and managed to rip apart my sternguard and tiggy in one turn...they didn't do squat for the entire game. Not being able to survive all the ap3 and ap2 shots from the other sternguard made them a big crap point in the game for me. However, I did manage to make some great moves in the game....took out the sternguard squad in 2 turns, killed the dready that came along with the stormraven using a talos and wyches. My wyches were starts today...they killed a droppod, dready, stormraven and half the stormtalon that escorted the stormraven.

Unfortunately I made a mistake leaving my archon out front of my grots at one point and lost him to a well placed krak rocket that popped my shield and thus his face. My wracks decided to run away for half the game before I could get them in place to wreck face with a devestator squad camping the home objective. My talos did alright considering how easy marines can deal with them.

Ultimately, the stormtalon managed to contest my objective and he got linebreaker from his captain and pedro kantor getting into my zone turn 5 by wiping out a warrior squad in on their way in. I couldn't get anything to survive into the backfield (the wracks job) which hurt in the end. This makes me enjoy my eldar allies alot more since they are super mobile. Oh well I had fun and it was super close, better luck next time!

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2013, 23:24

yea Tiggy not getting what you want can hurt, and it sucks that he got wasted like that... But in the end, it happens.  How did the marines deal with the talos? bolter fire?

Yesterday I played in a local RTT with the 2k version of Yacht Club.  The field was surprisingly small considering the prize support that was announced. (1.5k CSM army +40%)  First game I got paired up against an Eldar player.

Eldar list:

Mission was 3 objectives worth 5 points each, with each kill point being worth 2 points.  Deployment was 5th edition Dawn of War.

I chose to go second to limit the amount of targets he had on the field and giving me access to killing all the night spinners first since they presented the greatest threat to me.  Over all i liked the sheer amount of carnage i can do early game and the maneuverability of the list.  What i didnt like in this game was how quickly everything got wasted and how easy it was to kill what is inside our vehicles.  I think i made some play mistakes during the game, but as my opponent was having his second game since coming back to 40k from 4th edition it was really a non-issue.  What ultimately caused my loss was the amount of time we were allotted and that I HAD to table my opponent to win.  Dice down was called after we finished turn 3, all the guy had left was 1 bike, ~5 guardians + a spiritseer, and two squads of a single wraithguard left.  when i had 3 ravagers and three raiders left, with 2 squads of warriors left.  

Due to how many KPs I had lost to my opponent the tournament organizers had to slightly change the format to compensate for the MASSIVE amount of points he had gained from blowing up 2/3rds of my army and an objective.  The organizer was quoted as saying "He wins the tournament from this round alone."

Game Two was a weird type of game, was set up to be attacker/defender and the defender had to defend a building (av12 all around 10 HP) since I lost the roll to decide who attacks and defends i got stuck with 'defending'.  My objective was to kill 50% of his forces.

Black Templars:

This game looked like it was in the bag once he deployed all on one side of the table and i deployed on top of and behind the 'building'

A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 2013-110
This photo cracks me up. lol! 

The only reason i won this match was because my opponent didnt even go for my building.  I did receive ALOT more damage than i should have, just because i was careless.  Got too aggressive with my raiders to get a chiep trick off, only for it to be botched by his impressive cover save rolling skills thus saving a Land Raider from 4 ravagers (something like 6 pens he saved).  I did get a shatter shard off on a group of marines that ended up killing helbracht, techmarine, and like 3 beakies.  Beyond that, i played into his hands, drawing into an all out brawl in the open thus causing me to lose more than i expected.

Game three was against a new to the hobby Dark Eldar player.  This game was Trig deployment, with Kill points being 5 points per.  So Once again... I had to table my opponent... yay.

A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 2013-111

Dark Eldar:

This game went about as well as I expected.  I did want to Shattershard Vect, but since that haemonculus was so far out of position i couldnt deal with it so i just used it on a bunch of wyches. His bloodbrides and wyches got Venomed down, in retaliation for haywiring a venom ( he made a 12" assault to get there!) Game was fun, though I do feel bad because i couldn't tell by how much i was winning and was stuck in the mindset that if he had models on the table he was going to win.

There you have it Yacht club came in second, first being my first round opponent.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 13 2013, 23:38

Nicely done. Of course, KP missions are bound to hurt yacht club. You have so many KPs in your list. So ... still seems you had a lot fun with your first go with the Yacht Club

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2013, 00:23

I love the pictures of the Yacht club!!! Its freaking hilarious. The Marines dealt with my Talos using bolters, krak missiles, and grav weapons. They actually both died in assault though to a power fist when one had one wound left and the other did battle with a dreadnought and I lost it in the first round though managed to put 2 HPs on the dreadnought...wyches finished it off next turn thankfully...those AP2 powerfist deals really hurt against Talos and it was difficult to get a pain token for the talos in this case.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2013, 15:51


The Talos is actually not too bad against a dreadnought. He does strike first. The thing is to get that Talos a few tokens - FNP.FC ... this really helps. You want them before you charge that Dreadnought, lol. I know some people who have switched to haywire on their Talos just to ensure they can take down Dreads, vehicles etc. It is 5 points more and overall SC is the much better buy. SCs should have got you a token before charging. You weaken a unit with anything then you use the Talos to finish it off gaining you those tokens. It seems you misplayed the guy but I don't know if this was to difficult to pull off in your game.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 14 2013, 18:38

The dreadnought charged me I really didn't have much choice. I personally think people really overestimated how easy it is to get pain tokens for the Talos. I find it really difficult. BS3 even twinlinked leads to missed shots, I didn't really have any good opportunity for him to finish off a squad either which didn't help. I had a squad block on me by a rhino turn 2 which is where I would have hoped to gain the token most likely before I was assaulted turn 3. It is what it is though, I am very aware of how I need to get the tokens its just a matter of being sucessful quickly enough.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 15 2013, 21:07

egorey wrote:


This is the 4 'Tide list ripping it up ...

Hq Farsight
O’vesa (Riptide)
3 crisis suits, bonding knifex3, missile podx3
10 kroot w hound
1 crisis suit, flamer, bonding knife
1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
1 crisis suit, missile pod, bonding knife
Riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override
Riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked smart missile system, early warning override, positional relay
Riptide, heavy burst cannon, twin linked smart missile system, velocity tracker, target lock, 2 shielded missile drones, talisman of arthas moloch
Skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter

Commander, command and control node, multispectrum sensor suite, iridium armor, puretide chip, onager gauntlet, vectored retrothrusters, neuroweb system jammer
10 kroot w hound

No need to explain this. It is just pure nasty.


So what strategies will you employ?

Deere God this is an uphill battle for the Yacht Club.  

I would assume against me he would hold his suits and kroot in reserves to DS and outflank for the surprise.  Though if he does all the firepower would lay into his 4 tides and HQ definitely killing at least one and a TON of drones.  If he deploys everything, i'll DL down all of the Crisis Suits, and soak a missile drone Tide with poison.  While holding fire with 2-3 raiders depending on the board and prime assaults for the next turn. (to present a threat)

I would only assault with wyches if the target is massively crippled and isnt close enough to anything else to absorb more overwatch fire unless that unit is also going to be assaulted.  My main goal would be to protect my venoms as best as I can while also putting them in decent spots so that my warriors are in double tap range if something should happen to their venom.

My kill order  Crisis Suits, Tides w/ Drones, Tides, Kroot, Skyray in that order.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 20 2013, 17:21


FOOD FOR THOUGHT - DAEMONS



So let us look at what daemons bring to table against Dark Eldar/Eldar.

Total Cost: 1850 
HQ: Kairos Fateweaver - 300 (warlord)
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch, Disc, Grimoire of True Names, Lvl 3 - 155 (divination)
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch, Disc, Portaglph, Lvl 3 - 155 (divination)
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch, Disc, Locus of Conjuration, Lvl 3 - 145  (divination)
HQ: Herald of Tzeentch, Disc, Locus of Conjuration, Lvl 2 - 120 (divination)
Elites: 3 Beast of Nurgle 156
Troops: 12 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch - 108
Troops: 10 Plaguebearers of Nurgle - 90
Troops: 10 Plaguebearers of Nurgle - 90
Fast Attack: 7 Screamers of Tzeentch 175
Heavy Support: Daemon Prince,  Demonic Flight, Warp-forged Armour, Daemon of Tzeentch, Staff of Change, 2 Greater Reward, Lvl 3 - 355 (biomancy/telepathy)

This is a list I actually designed for my brother who has been playing with it. It has destroyed Eldar lists as generally it gets Perfect Timing and Forewarning. The list separates one herald from the screamerstar to at least offer a second threat and uses beasts to counter charge on the opponent's turn and protect either the screamers or horrors. It can be quite effective. All said, although screamerstar has weaknesses they do not show up much against DelDar. We don't use AV13-14 tanks. We have no Rune Priests or psychic powers that it really fears. We cannot reliably tarpit those screamers with the beasts close by.

Toyal Cost: 1850    Gareth Hunt
HQ: 2x Herald of Khorne, Juggertnaught, Locus of Wrath - 310
HQ: Lord of Change, Lesser Reward, 2 Greater Rewards, Lvl 3 - 305
Troops: 2x 10 Plagyebearers, Plagueridden - 190
Troops: 2x 10 Plaguebearers - 180
Fast Attack: 2x 16 Flesh Hounds, - 512
Heavy Support: 2x Soulgrinder, Daemon of Slaanesh - 300
Aegis Defense Line - 50

The 'let the hounds loose list' from battlefield Birmingham. It surprised everyone at the time as was one of the two chaos daemon lists that ran through Eldar and DE at the tournament. It really applies a lot of early pressure. There are just too many priority targets to deal with and killing off its troops is not easy. The soull grinders are an immense threat against us and we need luck to take down the LoC. Poison definitely will help here.

Total Cost: 1850   Kenny Boucher
HQ: Fateweaver 300
HQ: GUO, Greater Reward, Exalted Reward, Lvl 3 290
HQ: Daemon Prince, Flight, Power Armour, Daemon of Nurgle, VotLW, Black Mace -  265
Troops: 3x 10 Plaguebearers, - 270
Troops: 10 Chaos Cultists - 55
Heavy Support:  2x Daemon Prince,  Demonic Flight, Warp-forged Armour, Daemon of Tzeentch, Staff of Change, 2 Greater Reward, Lvl 3 - 710

Well it is a true 'flying circus' list using CSM allies. Four FMC and a GUO are vulnerable to poison  but how fast can you take these guys out? It is a one dimensional list to be sure. Deal with the monsters or perish but it is still scary.

Daemons, these days, seem to be relegated to tier two competitive but they still can and will do extremely well on the tournament scene - they just lack the respect of lists that are less random. If the randomness can be mitigated - which these lists do well - they can perform admirably. What do our standard lists have to counter these builds (not a list tailored specifically for them).
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2013, 04:23

FOOD FOR THOUGHT  - DELDAR

So after seeing what was winning at battlefield Birmingham it is nioce to point out that three Edlar lists were top three at battlefield Salvation with two of them using DE allies. The winning list was:

Winner:
Farseer, Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spear (Doom, Death Mission, Fortune)
Farseer, Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Shard of Anaris (Prescience, Precognition, Misfortune)
10 Warlocks on Bikes, 4 Spears
5 Squads of 3 Windrider Jetbikes
2 Squads of 6 Swooping Hawks
2 Wraithknights
Skyshield Landing Pad
Baron
5 Kabalite Warriors

You will f course notice some very interesting choices in this list. Notably a skyshield landing pad with WKs is pretty tough to crack. Obviously there must have been few GK Stormravens around (mindstrike missiles would have been nasty), but non-the-less the guy won it all. Condemnor bolters are also pretty brutal against pskers and could have meta changing effects IF SoB becomes popular (whch is unlikely). However, a GK/SoB allied force would hurt.

Third:
Farseer bike, spirit stone of anathalin
Farseer
2 squads of 3 Jetbikes
20 Guardians - 2 bightlances
2 Wraithknight
Vect
20 Warriors - 2 splinter cannons, sybarite(PGL)
20 Warriors - 2 splinter cannons, sybarite
5 Beast Masters - 10 kymerra, 6 razorwing flocks

Another very interesting perspective on DelDar alliances. This list again breaks convention. Do note that both these lits have NO wave serpents. That's right. And both were winning lists. Also note that a fearless beast pack is better than a Baron beast pack often enough to warrant Vect's inclusion. So back to drawing boards guys. There are plenty of unexplored options yet to be found and exploited.

One more quick point. Cover is becoming a very tricky issue with each new release. Tau has ignore cover. Divination spam will ignore cover (perfect timing) SM now have cheap auspexes to reduce cover. The new SoB release will have the ability to ignore cover. Wave Serpents ignore cover. This makes toughness, wounds, range and mobility important issues. As DElDar players we have always been used to low toughnes troops often relying on FNP, positioning or lightning strikes to win games relying on our speed and positioning. It will now become even more crucial and I predict that DElDar players will do well because we have learnt how best to protect our advantage and press when needed.

What's it all about Alphie

It is about deathstars. Both the daemon lists and the DelDar lists have this in common. DEATHSTARS are thriving.
It is about durability, versatility, mobility, and board presence. It is about nasty characters and psychic influence. DelDar have Baron, Vect, Phoenix lords and Farseers. We can cast invisibility now instead of fortune. We can use stealth and jink. Daemons use Fleshounds and screamers and heralds. It doesn't matter. SM have CM and bikes. But deathstars will begin to rule the tournament scene. We can grade our deathstars pretty easily.
Tier 1) Either Seer council or Beast Pack
Tier 2) Grotesques with Hamies and Archon or Uriel
Tier 3) Large Wraithguard units with multiple seers

So when designing a DelDar force for COMPETITIVE play look closely at the flexibility of options and see if you can fit a deathstar in. This is not new for this thread. I've touted Fuegan wall, Seer Councils, Beast Packs and Grotesquestar throughout this thread. Also note that DE and Eldar combine to make the best of these deathstars and arguably among the best in the game. Psychic powers buffed by syealth and hit and run and split fire, etc., all are quite deadly and add an element to our force that should not be ignored outright. I know a lot of DelDar players DO NOT want to field a deathstar. I get it. We have offered alternatives throughout this thread. But there is no denying we win with them.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2013, 15:48

Gotta love the deathstars. My current DelDar list is based on this aspect with 5 high toughness units that are essentially 5 mini deathstars or deathstar like in a sense. It works well for me usually. And along those lines I want to discuss two lists I have mulled over in my spare time. One is a pure Dark Eldar list and the other is a space marine list for when I get to getting some new guys (hopefully for xmas) and start work in shoring up that end of my warhammer armies.

Here is my Dark Eldar list:
Archon (VB, huskblade, shadowfield, PGL, HWG)
Haemonculus (Power Axe, liquifier)

4 grots with liquifier in a boat
3x kabalite trueborn (2 dark lances)

2x 10 man warrior squads (splinter cannon)
2x 5man wych squads with HWG in boats
1x 5man wrack squad with liquifier in a venom (dual SCs)

10 hellions
6 reaver jetbikes (2 heat lances)

Razorwing (dissies)
2x Talos (liquifier/SC)

Aegis defense line with icarus


So this list is interesting. It still has the same base I use in my DelDar list with the wraiths. I have added some dedicated AT in the form of the the trueborn which will be with the icarus so they can also shoot at aircraft. The razorwing also gives a small amount of AA but will generally target infantry and heavy infantry. The hellions and reavers are the other addition to the list. Reavers are AT and just a general pain in the butt. The hellions are a nice close up dakka unit and assault unit that can tarpit things that are a pain in the butt as well. The nice thing about this list is that I've added a bunch more units to the table increasing target saturation.


Now for my space marine list, which is more of the deathstar route Eg mentioned. I also want to give my thoughts about my homebrew chapter. I want to use Ultramarines, but really only for tigarus and some of the buffs. The rest of my army is in general fairly mechanized and I love my SM tanks...thus I like the Iron Hands rules as well. The solution: use allied ultramarines rules with IH as the main force. My allied detachment fluff wise represents a special Psychic detail of my Chapter. They are elite tacticals and w/e else I decide to give a special paint job to represent that portion of my army. The rest of my army will be the main guard so to speak- specialized in being tough and mechanized. This probably doesn't matter to you guys but it matters a lot to me for my marines...I've had them for a long time. My DE are more my power gaming army I suppose...more carefully thoughtout of a collection than my horde of marines and marine vehicles.

So on to a list that I think will be fun, utilizing some of the new units I'd like to give a shot and allowing my collection to grow.

Ultramines detachment: Psychic Detail (I'll need to come up with a cool name for this for my fluff)
Tigarus
10 tactical marines (heavy bolter and flamer) in Rhino
10 tactical marines (heavy bolter and flamer) in Rhino

IH Detachment: Tempest Guard
Captain (Storm Shield, Bike, Auspex, Relic Blade, Melta bombs)

Vanguard Vets (jump packs, storm shields, lightning claws)

Bike Squad (5 bikes, 1 attack bike, multimelta, 2 grav guns, power sword, vet upgrade)
Tactical Squad (5 marines, plasma gun) in Razorback (HB)
Tactical Squad (5 marines, plasma gun) in Razorback (lascannon)

Centurion Devastor Squad (grav cannons, omniscope, chest bolters)
Vindicator (siege shield)


So this list is...different so to speak. The idea would be to get Tigarus with the centurions and place them front line and have them march forward much like a Talos would. They are also in charge of AA with the shear amount of firepower and Tigarus' reroll hits. The tactical squads do their usual thing, do w/e needs to be done considering their wargear...I would probably combat squad them in most cases so the heavy bolters would stay behind to shoot up things and flamers and plasma guns move forward to take objectives or press the advantage when/if it arises. The vanguard squad is a tough nut to crack especially with the IH rules benefiting them. 3++ jump infantry that will do well in cc is nice and will provide assault support when needed, especially around the centurions. The bike squad plays a similar role...I can't see running a commander any other way really...if he is on foot he needs a sweet ride to make him useful in any manner. This way I have a roving squad that can shoot up stuff and assault if needed...the sarge is upgraded to a vet sarge for the bonus assault stats and has a power weapon just in case he needs to take a challenge along the way and generally give it more abilities in cc. Lastly, we have the vindicator...its just a tanky tank that will benefit from the IH rules and blast crap away that needs a blasting.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2013, 16:23


I also like grots as you know. I play mine with Urien. That said, I know my DElDar list is not a tournament list. It is just a strong list that can win locally. It does remain though that WKs appear in both lists. It seems that they are certainly two keys to winning. I do use a WK - I would not play DelDar without one now. But my list does rely more heavily on transports that supply the dakka - raider, 3 venoms, 2 wave serpents. against my bro's daemons i have a tough time ... a screamerstar is a problem when backed by beats and a tough MC even with all that poison. A 2++ reroll 1s star will shrug off a lot of splinter fire as will a Riptide. Never mind flyers and trying to down them without skyfire. It can be done but it is tough. Also DE have no real psychic defense to speak of. And Eldar defense is marginally better.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2013, 19:52

No comments on my post Eg?

On a note about HQ units for Marines. I feel I am exceptionally spoiled now that I have played DE. Archons have great usability beating the crap out of things with great wargear and stats. Then again we have some other weird HQs like succubus and whatnot. The haemie is certainly usable though as well since it gives access to good troops and nice buffs.

Enter the Marines HQ units are certainly different. You really have several options that give you certain abilities (I am ignoring Special Characters in this case) such as psychic powers, bikes for troops, etc. Otherwise you are looking at stats shifting by a point or two in the WS/BS/I and especially in the case of the chapter master the wound category.

So I am remembering most of this off the top of my head but I'll go through the main choices and my quick thoughts. Chaplains...feel useless to me...they have a couple abilities and nothing special in the stats area. Librarians...unless you really want some really random powers on the charts that aren't the best compared to divination. You really have to pay some points to make the librarian useful...but Tigarus is just sooooo much better that it feels pointless to use them unless you really want to test your luck or like all of one of the disciplines powers. That takes us to the Master of the Forge...2 wounds and 2+ but no invuln which sucks considering slay the warlord exists. Your best bet with him is to put him in a LR or something similar and fix the crap out of it throughout the game. The other option would be to use a conversion beamer but thats meh.

This leaves us with the Captain and Chapter Master. CM is obviously better in stats and has orbital bombardment which is pretty sweet. Otherwise they are the same. I find the relics to be incredibly pricey for what some of them give you. Looking at it we have some options in the wargear part here that can make things interesting. Mainly these are bikes, jump packs, and no wargear...ie footslogging it. Unless you have plans to stick him with some squad in a vehicle footslogging seems boring not to mention the lack luster stats compared to the big baddy assault guys out there makes this usable but potentially dangerous exercise. You really need to dump points into the guy to make him really survivable using the relic armor and such. This may be worth it to some armies but not to me as that is a lot of points. Jump packs yield similar results except no transport...leaving him to be used in vanguard vet or assault squads to be really usable...vanguard vets are probably your best bet for hiding him since you get some good wargear. That leaves bikes...unlocking bikes as troops ultimately. I didn't want to follow the crowd in spamming bikes and I refuse to do so still, but that doesn't mean a unit of bikes can't be used. The bike gives T5 and if you really want to make your butt tough go for all those pricey upgrades in the relic section. I'm thinking of taking a shield for the 3++ on a T5 guy with at least 3 wounds would work very well. Combine with IH and you get a tough HQ guy. Thus it seems that bikes are really the best way to go or on foot with some good unit like TH/SS termies in a LR or stormraven.

So those are just my rambling thoughts on the matter.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 21 2013, 21:30

ligolski wrote:
No comments on my post Eg?
Well I sort of did. Your De list is okay but truly it plays better with Eldar support. I said I like the grotstar but it is not the strongest deathstar DelDar can field by a long shot.   In fact even the wraithguard with seers and baron might be better methinks. In fact I'm sure it is.

I've seen centurions do well and i've seen them flop. I'm leaving it open for now. With Tiggy they might be a go. I already did a post on CM with bikes and I use it myself in my SW/IH list. I personally would not have a vindicator. I would use two thunderfire cannons first and I would have some scouts over one of the rhino tac squads and  sit them in cover with the scouts behind an AGL. Not sure on Van vets thought they might indeed be good. So I would substantially alter your list.

Now having said that and despite using a SW/IH list myself. SM do not impress me a lot. If I started again I would go sisters main with some IG back up ...

uriah 100
2x priests, 2 plasma, 1 litanies of faith  95
20 sisters, flamer, heavy flamer (uriah/priests) 275
2x 5 sisters, flamer, heavy flamer, combi-flamer, immolator, tl mm  290
3x exorcists 375
- that is 1135 -

Now add just enough IG to get a few Vendettas - you have 600+ points to play with.

command squad, officer of the fleet, 4 melta, chimera, heavy flamer, multilaser  175
platoon  180
1*platoon command squad, autocannon
2* infantry squad, autocannon
2* vendetta  260
- that is 615 -

AGL, quad autocannons 100

(1850)

- i've edited the list after a discussion with mush in chat. although i really like celestine, an extra exorcist is just too juicy to pass up. it is arguably on of the best support tanks in the game -


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2013, 01:48

Yea marines are so "standard" that it can be hard to be impressed by any given unit. They are all around decent at everything which makes specialization difficult. It takes knowing when to shoot and assault and when to move forward or hold your ground. However, I love my marines they just look awesome when all painted up as a nice fighting force.

Your thoughts on the list are intriguing to me. 2 thunderfires over a vindicator is fair enough though it lacks the super punch. However the versatility and range is very nice indeed along with bolstering defenses. Scouts are meh in my opinion....snipers only go so far, in my experience they always fail. They may be somewhat useful in a LSstorm but I don't own any of those...then again I don't own any thunderfires and chunks of this list either. I think a thunderfire could be useful for sure and I will certainly consider adding that though I'm not sold on dumping one of my tact squads (which get buffed nicely by the ultramarine buffs) for scouts. I've been using my vanvets in this form for a while now...they pack a lot of punch I usually give them melta bombs too but I ran out of points in 1850. I've had them stomp across battefields blowing up super heavies and more. Essentially they are similar to TH/SS termies but have jump packs which is pretty bamf.

My pure DE list certainly isn't better compared to my generaly DE list I use...I just wanted to screw around and see what I could come up with without allies as an experiment. I'm not even sure if I would ever use it. Baron + beasts is something I may look at in the far future...at least the beasts but thats down the road a lot in terms of collecting...once I get my DE together I want to focus on my marines again for a while to get them painted up.

I like the look of the IG side of your list, I know virtually nothing on SoB especially with the new rules changing them up significantly. However I would consider vet squads over the platoon squad and put them in a vendetta/valkyrie.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2013, 05:50

Honestly, the SoB/IG list is a tried and true list with just a few updates for the new codex. The sisters will hurt with a huge fearless blob that defies dakka and has hit and run, fearless, hatred and priestly hymns. It i a beast of a unit. It pushes forward. The IG sit back and fire bubble wrapping the exorcists. The battle conclave is my cc unit and the immo sisters will apply pressure where needed. The list is really tough. The two vendettas are a squadron - it actually takes two to down a flyer a turn with some probability - over 60%. One does not quite do it. Along with the quad at the back with the IG, opposing flyers will at least have some problems. Your list is not bad but the IG/SoB list has better balance, IMHO.

A note on grotesques. Without an allied farseer they are not a deathstar. They require psychic buffs to even be considered one. As neither of us play it that way it is just a decent tar pit cc unit with some obvious weaknesses. It is slow even with a transport - sooner or later they disembark and then they cannot reposition very quickly. They have a lot of wounds and decent toughness but their save is just 6+. So really the better deathstars are still either seer council or beast pack althiugh a well built wraithguard unit can cause problems - see the Fuegan wall list.
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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 22 2013, 15:23

I agree about the grots for sure, they aren't all the way to deathstar status until you give them a 4++ with forewarning and any other manner of psychic upgrades much like beasts need some reroll action to make them super hot. However, in my DelDar list I attempt to achieve several mini deathstar/deathstar like units that together pack a punch and increase target saturation of high value targets. My SM list I gave is similar in style with 3 tough units that should pack a good punch if things go well. I think the original idea of why I went with the vindicator was because I figured I would just be pushing hard into one area where the backup of a S10 AP2 ordance blast would be nice to flatten anything big. I'd like to see that SoB/IG list in action with the new rules to see how it fairs against the current meta for sure hopefully they end up being more than what people thought they would be with the digital update.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2013, 01:47

It is a philosophy I support ... multiple targtets of opportunity that are durable and threatening is a good approach with DelDar for sure. Here is an example (my latest Urien rendition)

DelDar MTO List

-iyanden primary detachment -

Iyanden Spiritseer 70 (all WG have battle focus)
Farseer, Lvl 3 100

2x 5 Wraithguard, Wraithcannons, Wave Serpent, TL Scatterlasers, Holofields 590

3 Dark Reapers, Starshot, Exarch, EML, Flakk, Night Vision, Fast Shot 151

- allied detachment -

Urien Rakarth 190
3 Uber Grots, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Venom Blade, Raider, Disintegrator, Nightshields 220

2x 5 Wracks, Liquifier, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons, Flickerfields 260
3 Windrider Bikes 52

Ravager, Nightshields 115

- fortification -

Aegis Defense Line, Quad Autocannons 100

(1850)

The list is somewaht deceptive. The Farseer can certainly join the grotesques and Urien for a mini-deathstar but he can also sit back with the dark reapers and AGL. The wracks can come in from reserve or you can field empty venoms and have them head for objectives. The wraithguardall have battle focus of course so they extend their range nicely. The list has a lot of dakka and a cc element that hits relatively hard.

It has been tested once only against a Nec/CSM list that was rather nasty - wraiths, barges, scythes, heldrake. The CSM were led by Typhus. So it was an exceedingly close match that was barely won on the last turn ( I won't disclose the winner - guess). The MVPs of the game were those reapers which wrecked havoc all six turns. Very unfriendly unit - dark reapers. Urien was okay - not a match up he could really flex his stuff in.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2013, 04:27

Very interesting list with a fairly low model count, but most being tough as nails helps i'm sure get them through the hell. I wonder how well this would fair to grav spam or anything that can move as quick as you can. The winning Eldar list put up on BoLS would certainly be an interesting matchup for you as well. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2013, 07:25

Nick's list on Bols was playing to the missions and tournament that he was in. He used over double the amount of troops as I do in mine and again the dual WK crutch. Certainly it can work. I can take out a WK in one round of shooting with a little luck using my list. Not guaranteed by any means but quite doable.

Let's be honest - tournament and casual lists no longer mix at all. It is what 40k has become. Every list will sport either very strong units or allied combos that are really tough to crack at a tournament - dual WKs - quad Riptides -  Sccythes, Barges, DPS and Heldrake in one list - Commander Mark'O with eldar Dark Reapers and Seer - multiple MC lists with DPs in CSM and Daemons. I can go on and on.

Tournament winning lists have commonalities. In this thread we are exploring a gamer's viewpoint by creating lists that are strong but would certainly not be shoo-ins for the grand prize at a tournament. Non-the-less, i feel that many of the lists could, if played well, and if they did not encounter multiple bad scenarios and rock lists to their scissors still perform at a relatively high level.

I will say this this though - kudos to the Feast of Blades list. No allies is refreshing. Sure he took the strongest units from the codex but that is fine. Eldar is a codex that can actually stand on its own without resorting to allied commanders, baron or vect, etc. He chose to go with dual WKs and the large guardian squads w/BLs - a very unusual approach. Battle focus has made these lists actually playable. Empty wave serpents and large blobs  ... nice. Flanked by MCs and those nasty warp spiders. It worked for him once. I can see a number of bad match ups for that list though. If anything this illustrates what we are doing - building lists that are unexpected and a little unorthodox.

And just one final point. A good general can win with almost any of the lists presented in this thread. You can net list and go to a tournament and get badly beaten. I've seen that scenaroio often enough. Along will come an experienced player who will take advantage of every error you make and will pummel you even if it looks like a auto-win for you on paper. The game is not played on paper, it is played on the table top. Many matches I've had I've been able to find ways to counter and win even with my screwy looking lists. My latest list has a plethora of qeaknesses not the lest of which is a very low troop count. I'll do what needs to be done to keep those troops alive in games where I need them.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 23 2013, 12:33

Well said sir! Can't argue with anything you have said. Indeed our miniblog here is all about finding weird ideas and running with them and playing to have fun while being able to potentially field them at a more casual local tourny I'd say...not that I have had that chance at all.

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 24 2013, 00:06

As a special note that I'd rather not edit into my last post to make more aware of it:
Forgeworld has updated all its chapters with mostly custom chapter traits that are official for 40k and usable by even custom armies! This includes updated special characters. This is my first foray into the Forgeworld chapters and I am in the process of digesting the material...at first glance I must say...AWESOME! Red Scorpian rules are particularly interesting as well as some other chapters and their special characters.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/fwDownloads

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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 24 2013, 04:58

I will add one more comment on list building - people online are quick to judge. The SoB/IG list above was criticised on another site. I was told the sisters blob was a waste of points. I never broke down why I chose to use it there but I will here. Now you can take as many a s five priests but I take two only. The extra priests would be for emperor's strength - I feel I can use this when needed with what I have. War Hymns are stackable as long as they differ. So what does this blob have?

Fearless (From Jacobus banner)
Hatred (From the priest Zealot rule)
Counter Attack(From Jacobus banner)
Reroll armour and Inv saves(From the priest War hymns)
Reroll to wound(From Jacobus War hymns)
Auto passes all AoF or Hymn tests with a Priest that has Litanies of Faith,
Prefered Enemy (From Battle Sisters).
The Emperor's Strength - 3 S3 Ap2 attacks, 4 on charge or Smash for 2 S6 Ap2 attacks (Priest War Hymns)
The Emperor's Strength - 4 S3 Ap2 attacks, 5 on charge or Smash for 2 S6 Ap2 attacks (Jacobus War Hymns)

Yep it is almost 600 points. But it is firing on all cylinders marching forward daring you to assault it. That is a pretty impressive list of bonuses to me. It will deny whole sections of the board with 24 models. Sure I will lose a few marching forward. That's okay. I still have plenty of back up and support in the list.


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PostSubject: Re: A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics   A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics - Page 8 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 24 2013, 16:38

Its not that resilient to shooting though is it? The re-roll armour saves only works in the fight subphase (same for the re-roll to wounds hymn). A 3+ save on a T3 unit will still die fast to volumes of fire. So that's 20+ bolter firing away in mid field (that can get prefered enemy two times per game), that you don't want to assault, but can be delt with shooting reasonably well. I'll be honest I don't really see the appeal for the price. Or am I missing something?

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