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Barking Agatha
Mushkilla
Brom
Herbert West
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kiblams
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PostSubject: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 21:01

Hey guys,

So 9 Wyches in cover and with FnP from a Haemy are surprisingly survivable in a Raider and I am very happy with the durability of them so far, I need a little help with the upgrades to give my Hekatrix as I really can't decide.

I have been running the Hekatrix sporting a venom blade to ensure that they can take on vehicles, infantry AND monstrous creatures/bikes, but can't help feeling drawn toward a power weapon to get the AP3.

Of course the other option is to have a little of each by using the Agoniser as that would give AP3 that always wounds on 4+, not as good as the venom blade at wounding monstrous creatures, but certainly better than the power weapon and the hits that do wound would do more damage. The only issue with taking the Agoniser is the points cost, they are already fairly expensive for a troops choice...

Which do you guys go for?

Cheers,

-Kiblams
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 21:35

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And then he came along. And all your Wyches got sent to the barbeque! Seriously, Wyches aren't survivable at any time.


On subject: I'd give her a Venom Blade and be done with it. Venom Blades are remarkably effective for their point cost.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 22:27

Yeah venom blade is the best option, power weapon won't cause many wounds, and agoniser is too expensive for the amount you'll benefit. 

You'll have games where your wyches can survive sure, but don't ever rely on it. I've seen a raider take the shooting of an entire 1000 pt marine army and escape with just a glancing hit, others get flattened by the first shot.

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Herbert West
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 01:08

I'll say it really depends on what do you want her to do. Basically, and statistically, a Hekatrix charging a marine, with no drugs


_Venom blade : 0,56 deads
_Agonizer : 1 dead

So i'm agree with the fact that in a standard situation, strictly using the caracteristics of the dex, the venom blade is a better choice. 


But, to me such a situation is a non sense, cause you'll never send your girls on marines, you've got better units for that. So you have to really think about what you want them to do during the battle. If you need a cheap unit that'll go send grenades on tanks, venom blade. Need a unit to distract a big creature, venom blade. Need a unit that will go occupy a unit of terminators ? Agonizer. Need a unit to go crush some broadsides ? Agonizer. etc ...


My point is, we don't know enough to advise you well. Only thing that will happen, will be a flame war between the venom blade adepts and the Agonizer adepts. If you want a clear answer, we'll need to know more stuff, like :
_ what will be the targets of that unit ?
_other equipments ?
_What are, roughly, the other units of your army ?

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 04:03

Quote :
Need a unit that will go occupy a unit of terminators ? Agonizer. Need a unit to go crush some broadsides ? Agonizer. etc ...


Actually the venom blade is better in both instances..
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 06:50

Agreed, the agoniser is actually worse than the venom blade against 2+ saves because it only has AP3 and yet only wounds on a 4+.

Additionally, if you're sending your wyches against tanks, why take a special close combat weapon at all?

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 07:07

Agonisers are AP3 now so not great against 2+ saves.

You should consider a Succubus. Interestingly the succubus is so cost effective that combined with the nature of DE transportation she is more effective than her equivalent point in troops. In some ways you could see her as a "free" HQ. If your are running wyches and have a free HQ slot there is little reason not to run a succubus, as she is just as effective as the equivalent points you would have spent on wyches.

This article explains it: Succubus, Wyches, Raiders and Explosions!

Basically a Sucubus, agoniser, 5 wyches, haywire (145) is better in almost every way than 10 wyches, hekatrix, haywire, agoniser (150).

Personally in my experience I would say the succubus is more useful than attaching a haemonculus, as you are paying 50+ points for FNP on a T3 model (not really worth it), and you are losing fleet (unless you discard the haemonculus in the movement phase).

Hope that helps. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 08:27

Thanks for the responses guys, some pretty stern opinions here.


Just for the record, I had never claimed that the unit was super durable, only that it is srprisingly durable... I have had a full 1k CSM list unload shooting at <12" (I boosted up) leaving 2 wyches still alive and the rest of the army in great shape.


To answer some of the questions first; 


@Herbert West, the backbone of my army are these squads of Wyches, so I have been pitting them against all types of enemies from MCs to vehicles to Terminators. The rest fo the points after having 2-3 of these units are small Wrack units in Vemons, some Reavers and two Pain Engines.


@The_Burning_Eye, they need the assault weapons because they take on (and have been beating) most units they are thrown into.


@Mushkilla, Thanks for the link to that page on the succubus. I can appreciate how a succubus would be a great addition, though I run 2-3 of these squads and need the pain token from the start on all 3. After seeing how many times the FnP saves my Wyches in a game (the difference between my opponent expending a possible 1000pts of shooting at them or wiping them out with a single unit of fire) I really can't justify taking the Haemys out.


Now I am not saying these units are wonderful and invincible, far from it; they are my basic troop units that I run to do whatever I need from them. Afterall the placement of these guys in cover is so important I can't be THAT picky on what they will be facing when they get to the other side of the table Wink


Thanks for your comments, it looks as though the Venom blades I have been using already were the right choice so I will keep wit them. Great news as my lists are pretty sorted on points Wink


Cheers, guys!
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Herbert West
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 10:16

@Brom wrote:

Actually the venom blade is better in both instances..

Oops, i'm really sorry about that, don't know what crossed my mind...

@kiblams wrote:
@Herbert West, the backbone of my army are these squads of Wyches, so I have been pitting them against all types of enemies from MCs to vehicles to Terminators. The rest fo the points after having 2-3 of these units are small Wrack units in Vemons, some Reavers and two Pain Engines.


Wow... that's quite a friendly kind of list...



Anyway, i think you're gonna need two types of units :


_1 or 2 squads of 5 with only Haywire in raiders (cause you will need more anti tank weapons)


_at least 2 squads of 10 fully equiped wyches, with an Hekatrix and venom blade or an agonizer if you got enough points left, cause the most common target for them will be some marines.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 10:37

If your building dedicated assault squads, it might be worth considering wracks instead, they are better than wyches in terms of damage output and survivability, and don't need the haemonculus. That being said a haemonculus with power axe and liquifier makes a good addition and gives the unit more bite (Furious Charge meaning the wracks re-roll to wound against marines, and they also give you 4 S5 AP2 power weapons on the charge). Not to mention to lovely liquifiers.

8 wracks, 1 liquifier
1 arcothyst, venom blade (important for LD9 as haemi is only LD8)
1 haemi, liquifier, power axe
Raider - 245

On average will kill 4.98 marines on the charge. Now considering they get to fire two liquifiers at their target as well, they absolutely slaughter their way through marines, mass infantry, monstrous creatures etc.  

They are far and above a better assault unit. Of course they don't bring haywire to the table, but you can get that from small squads of 5 wyches in venoms. So maybe swap your units around, run the wyches in smaller squads in venoms and the wracks as the assault units in raiders? Just a thought.Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 12:16

Hey Guys,

Again thanks for the comments, I don't want you to feel like you are smacking your heads against a brick wall, but I am pretty solid on my choice of using the Wyches. I thin I may have failed to mention that I run The Duke so the more units with Combat drugs in my army the better as far as I am concerned.

@Herbert West, all of my Wyches always take haywire Grenades, this is how they can take on any unit that they are close to (Except flyers). I have tried running them in units of 10 without the Haemonculus but they crumple too easy on getting to their destination so that proved to be a huge waste of a unit.

@Mushkilla, you tricksie tempter you! I can see how that unit would hit hard, but whenever I run Wracks they crumple far too easily in combat. The 4++,5+ of the Wyches over the 6+,5+ of the Wracks cant be ignored in my experience in playing both on the table. Though I may swap my smaller Wrack units for one big one in bigger games. Shocked

Again thanks for your suggestions and criticisms, they are very welcome and I think everyone is in agreement that the Venom blade is the way to go. I am sure that if I start hitting bad luck with Wyches; I will come back to ask for help again. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 12:34

@kiblams wrote:
Hey Guys,

Again thanks for the comments, I don't want you to feel like you are smacking your heads against a brick wall

Not at all. There is no right way to play DE, I like to think TDC prides itself in being open minded, and working within the criteria you set for your army. If that's mass wyches then that's what we will work with. I mean I don't run venoms because I'm not a fan of them (despite what everyone says), and I don't fill up my heavy support slot (despite triple ravagers being the done thing). At the end of the day the important things is what works for you!

@kiblams wrote:
@Mushkilla, you tricksie tempter you! I can see how that unit would hit hard, but whenever I run Wracks they crumple far too easily in combat. The 4++,5+ of the Wyches over the 6+,5+ of the Wracks cant be ignored in my experience in playing both on the table. Though I may swap my smaller Wrack units for one big one in bigger games. Shocked

Not to tempt you more, but: T4 means you take less wounds from explosions, overwatch and shooting, and are more survivable against anything that isn't S6+ (for example against S4 a single WS4 attack averages 0.07 wounds against wracks and 0.11 against wyches). Of course the wyches strike first which evens things out, but their damage output is significantly less.

That being said you are running the duke, and without wyches he loses his raison d'être.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 14 2013, 22:03

@kiblams wrote:
Hey Guys,
Again thanks for the comments, I don't want you to feel like you are smacking your heads against a brick wall, but I am pretty solid on my choice of using the Wyches. I thin I may have failed to mention that I run The Duke so the more units with Combat drugs in my army the better as far as I am concerned.

That was my idea too, pre-6th edition. Post-6th ed. I just don't see it, unless you play against very unshooty opponents who oblige you with lots of assaults. Shooty opponents are just going to do to your wyches what Indiana Jones did to that guy with the sword in the first movie.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 16 2013, 10:42

@Barking Agatha wrote:
That was my idea too, pre-6th edition. Post-6th ed. I just don't see it, unless you play against very unshooty opponents who oblige you with lots of assaults. Shooty opponents are just going to do to your wyches what Indiana Jones did to that guy with the sword in the first movie.

Awesome scene from that film! A single squad f Wyches rushing forward by itself is not going to do anything for anyone except your an easy kill for your opponent, have you actually tried running a full Wyche list in 6th? You have to accept that you could lose a full unit on the first turn, but it's the 2 that survive that will be doing the damage turn 2.

I accept that on paper this should not work, but on the table with very aggressive movement and good model placement, in my humble experience, it can be very effective.
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2013, 00:22

@kiblams wrote:
have you actually tried running a full Wyche list in 6th? You have to accept that you could lose a full unit on the first turn, but it's the 2 that survive that will be doing the damage turn 2.

Yes I have. I banged my head against that particular brick wall for months.

You will lose, not one full unit, but several full units on the first turn. The ones that survive will still have to deal with Overwatch. The ones that make it through Overwatch will bounce off from an assault half the time, and get shot to bits. The ones that don't bounce off might possibly do some damage, but so what? Your opponent can afford to lose one after all the wyches they've killed.

I would really like to know how you're pulling off and winning all of these assaults with wyches. Maybe you could provide a few diagrams or, better yet, pictures (if it isn't any trouble, of course), and also describe more or less what sort of armies you've been facing with these wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2013, 08:37

@Barking Agatha wrote:
I would really like to know how you're pulling off and winning all of these assaults with wyches. Maybe you could provide a few diagrams or, better yet, pictures (if it isn't any trouble, of course), and also describe more or less what sort of armies you've been facing with these wyches.

Not got time today to provide pictures and the like, though my list with some details on those I have faced is in this topic:

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t6845-successful-1000pts-wyche-coven-list-so-far

Like I have said in this topic before, the list is in it's infancy and I am not playing tournaments with it, but I am not going to simply stop playing my favourite unit (the Wyches) because someone on a forum tells me it's useless when I have actual experience of it doing well on the table.

I have come onto this forum asking for advice on the loadout of a unit, only to have people tell me to stop playing the unit that drew me to the Dark Eldar in the first place... Neutral

Many thanks to those who have actually helped me in settling on venom blades for my Hekatrix, it is much appreciated. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2013, 10:04

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Maybe you could provide a few diagrams

Here are some diagrams! Very Happy

@Mushkilla wrote:

Well in my experience CC works fine. At the end of the day wyches die, deal with it.  Smile

Things that I have learn't so far:

1)Raider explode, it's a DE fact that everyone walks home. However when they do explode they leave a nice bit of area terrain for you, giving you a 4+ save with a PGL (a 3+ save if you go to ground, defensive grenades don't work when you go to ground). Fleet makes you better at charging through terrain (charging through difficult terrain with fleet is better then charging in the open without fleet). Raiders tend to die anyway, you might as well try and crash it as close to the enemy as possible, why? Well assuming marines and other shooty things this means they can't get out of your 8" stealth bubble. It means you will be able to charge them without first moving out of your crater (therefore getting a better cover save against overwatch). If the wych unit that got shot down contains an archon, your opponent might decide to focus a lot of his fire onto that one unit, all you do now is go to ground and take it on a 3+ cover save, this can help keep the rest of your army safe. Finally the exploding raider might do some damage to the enemy unit near by, not reliable, but every little helps.

2) The other thing I have learn't to do is use a unit to screen my wyches. This could be another wych squad, but most of the time it's my reavers. You can then charge the screening unit in as well if you want (the enemy will already be tied up so can't overwatch)

In this picture my reavers screen the lone succubus giving her a 5+ cover save when she charges the grey knights.
Assault upgrade choices Screening101

3) Another option is to use tougher units like reavers (T4 4+ cover) and incubi (T3 3+ armour) to "tank" the overwatch and tie up the unit.

4) Finally use depleted squads to attempt to draw out overwatch.

In this picture the lone wyche on the right charges the grey knights, the player decided not to overwatch as she is 10" away, however she makes the charge, preventing the grey knights from overwatching and as a result protecting the other wyches from getting overwatched.
Assault upgrade choices Depletedcharge

Hope that helps! Smile

@kiblams wrote:
I have come onto this forum asking for advice on the loadout of a unit, only to have people tell me to stop playing the unit that drew me to the Dark Eldar in the first place... Neutral

Don't mind Barking Agatha, he's just jealous that you can make wyches work. Wink

At the end of the day wyches are our only troop choice that truly excels against infantry and tanks (unlike wracks or warriors). This gives you fantastic flexibility. There are many members on here who do very well with them. They do require a lot of thought and planning to use, but are very rewarding to play as a result.

Personally I had a great run with them at the beginning of 6th and only swapped them out for warriors, because I felt warriors could better support my reavers (what my list is all about) not to mention I felt like a bit of a change having played wyches all the way through 5th.

Hope that helps. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2013, 13:48

@Mushkilla wrote:
Don't mind Barking Agatha, he's just jealous that you can make wyches work. Wink
Thanks Mushkilla! I think I am geting slightly over defensive of them also, I will try to keep it in check.

@Mushkilla wrote:
At the end of the day wyches are our only troop choice that truly excels against infantry and tanks (unlike wracks or warriors). This gives you fantastic flexibility.
The flexibility is what I love, when I have a flimsy and expensive army I don't feel that I can afford to have units dedicated to a specific job (like my Tau are) as they can be taken off the table far too easily (making the gameplan void). Much less stress in planning a gameplan when everything can handle everything. Smile

@Mushkilla wrote:
I felt like a bit of a change having played wyches all the way through 5th.
Yeah I spend the last year before starting the DE playing Tau with the old codex so I really needed a break from a gunline play style, though I think the effort put in while playing the tau to avoid ork assaults has helped to hone my model placement as an assaulting army Neutral

@Mushkilla wrote:
Hope that helps. Smile
Certainly does! I am already doing most fo the things that you mentioned (minus the PGL to boost cover saves) and I tend to use the Haemunculus instead of Reavers to take the overwatch hit; if he is blown out of the raider that is... 😢I will consider your points/tactics when I take to the table this week.

Thanks again guys.
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2013, 14:14

@kiblams wrote:
I tend to use the Haemunculus instead of Reavers to take the overwatch hit; if he is blown out of the raider that is...

Good point, I forgot to mention, if you run a haemonculus and you don't give him any gear, you can allocate the explosion hits to him, rather than the wyches (poor guy lives to die). Very Happy

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2013, 17:02

@Mushkilla wrote:
Don't mind Barking Agatha, he's just jealous that you can make wyches work. Wink

Well that seems uncalled for. I only asked.

In my own poor experience, speaking humbly on my own behalf, and not wishing to get above myself, no sir, but I never play against anyone who so kindly obliges by advancing their troops into the middle of the table to be charged by wyches, as the Grey Knights in these diagrams have done. My opponents are more likely to form a defensive line in their deployment zone and shoot at my wyches from as much of a distance as possible, advancing toward objectives only once they've shot down enough of them that they have a considerable advantage, on the 3rd or even 4th turn. Nor do we play on a 4' x 4' area, which is something that I can see making a massive difference.

But then again, I'm only a poor wretch and jealous of my betters. I humbly apologise for disturbing your worthinesses with my impertinent rantings.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2013, 23:02

Who plays on a 4'X4' board? That's not 40k!
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2013, 23:38

Why not? Play on whatever size board you like, I've played smaller games on a 4x4 table before now, played on bigger ones too when the game demands.

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kiblams
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 18 2013, 23:49

We play on 4x4 because we trend to only have one table available at or houses for game days that 4 or more of us attend, though we have a huge forgeworld table booked at warhammer world soon that my wyches will be rushing up. It's going to be epic, just need to stay as sober as possible on the day.

I would rather have more games going on smaller tables than spend hours wasting my time, horses for courses...
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 00:11

@kiblams wrote:
We play on 4x4 because we trend to only have one table available at or houses for game days that 4 or more of us attend, though we have a huge forgeworld table booked at warhammer world soon that my wyches will be rushing up. It's going to be epic, just need to stay as sober as possible on the day.

I would rather have more games going on smaller tables than spend hours wasting my time, horses for courses...

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm only saying that it might make a difference for models that need to get up close, like wyches. But there I go, having opinions again.

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PostSubject: Re: Assault upgrade choices   Assault upgrade choices I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 19 2013, 03:39

It's fine to play on 4x4. I was only messing about. Razz
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