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Jack Frost
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PostSubject: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 16:39

Ever since my group of friends and I started playing WH40K (about 15y's ago) we've always thought using special characters was pretty cheesy especially for 1 off games.("Oh look. Marneus Calgar showed up again."[rolls eyes]) 
For campaign games we might base it around 1 SC but thats the extent.
Does anyone else out there play this way?
Thanks.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 17:23

I don't use special characters for exactly that reason, old 3rd editions habbits die hard. Smile

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 17:26

who cares. Many people just use the special characters as "count as" for their army, but that is if you only care about fluff. The game is just that, a game. If they want to play with special characters, it isnt wrong. Just like your way reasoning for not playing with them isnt wrong as well. Thats one of the beauties of this game. Anything is possible!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 18:47

Yeah, I don't like SCs much either. It's funny that people seem more accepting of SCs than Allies, just because Allies are new in 6th edition. I'd have thought that there would be far more cases of Dark Eldar fighting alongside Eldar than of Vect himself leading raids. But at the end of the day, it's up to each individual what they want to use in their army.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 19:10

I know your all talking about custom games.  Now that we are past that my question is, are SC's required according to the book?


Lets say Im playing one of my many book rules only games that everyone likes to play and I dont want to use a HQ.  Would that be legit according to the book?
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hellios
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 20:27

It is also a matter of how the rules have been written...

In 3rd for example... I believe you needed your opponents consent to use Special Characters... Special Characters often weren't very good anyway...

Now special characters are often good, but they also make major changes to some armies... Hell I'm rather annoyed that my Deathwing army now requires me to take Belial... I can't run a strike-force under the command of a chaplain or librarian.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 20:30

I completely agree Helios I hate when you have to take a special character to unlock units as troops. I always like customising my HQ and coming up with my own back story.

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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 20:52

Agree with that as well.  I see why they do it that way (to sell more Special Character models) but I always thought that a better mechanic would be to have it be something your HQ purchased like wargear.  Something like:  20 pts.- Hellions become a Troops choice or free- Wracks become a Troops choice and Kabalite Warriors become an Elite choice.

OT- I have never had a problem with playing or playing against special characters but I know many people who do.  It stems from the time when Special Characters required opponent permission and they were generally overpowered compared to regular characters.  Now they are much more balanced and usually provide some nice variety to a normal FOC or some such benefit.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 20:58

It depends.
I used to be really against them, just because every army would be 50% special characters, and when 6 calgars turn up, well, it drags.
Now, I still dont use them, mostly because Deldar ones arent great and my own archon is more fun.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 21:25

I don't like using special characters if its a friendly game, but for a league or competition some of the buffs they bring to the army are too good to miss. Often I think that the cheaper ones are more effective in this category though, whereas the expensive ones tend to play better on their own (eg. Duke vs Drazhar)

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Jack Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 12 2013, 21:34

Thanks for the honest responses!
As for "count as..", well yeah, I totally use the SC models they have available for my HQ choices and whatnot. (Especially Lelith as my succubus) I just don't use their special rules.
I understand "anything could happen" but in my own idea of that universe what are the chances Abaddon is going to run into Azrael without drastic universe altering consequences? 
I leave that dictation up to the GW crew.
Anyhow, it's all fun and games, right...?
Thanks.

-Jack-

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Herbert West
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 01:27

I don't feel bad about using special characters and seeing people using them. Unlike Warhammer Battle, those guys are not enough to make the result of the battle themselves. It depends on how you wanna play your army. If you like to follow the path of one character or if you prefer having something custom that feets in your way of playing.

Also, those guys got habilities but they're not cheap. Okay, Drazhar is a tough guy, but I'm not gonna pay such an amount of points at 2000pts. Marneus's the same, and a lot of others. I think it's all a matter of cost/quality. If in an army it's a normal HQ that has the best ratio, people will choose him instead of the special character.

I can see on "les voleurs d'âmes", on over 500 members, the large most part don't use those characters even if, in France, for 99,99% of the tournaments they are allowed. And when i say the most part, it includes the best players we have.

Personaly, i prefer using a haemonculi to save points, or an Archon, if i need a good close combat squad. I use the special characters sometimes, but mostly when i wanna play for fun or in apocalypses.

About the fluff... well, even GW doesn't know how to make it right, so... who cares ?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 04:16

Quote :
About the fluff... well, even GW doesn't know how to make it right, so... who cares ?
Laughing

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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 04:28

I don't mind SC...except when they are ridiculous...but thats better these days.  I'd prefer though some sort of ability to customize a single HQ say an archon or marine captain or what have you and purchase buffs that SC's often give.  I think there would be a huge tactical coolness behind it if it was done right.  We are kind of there with warlord traits now...but I'd prefer something slightly less random in this case...especially if all you have access to is the rulebook ones

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 06:37

Never leave home without Baron Sathypants.

I love playing with SC, and all my friends does aswell. I dont see a problem with playing and not playing with them. Also I play to win and dont care about the fluff tbh, its like someone said above even GW doesnt know how to make it... If someone asked me not to play a SC for some fluff perspective I would tell them that I dont think we should play as I dont think he would have a fun game against me as I am a very competitive player, and bring competitive armys.

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 07:04

They have their place.  I usually go for the cheaper generic HQ's which can also be better tailored to specific situations or local metas, but SC's often have a feature, or multiple features, that cannot be ignored in certain circumstances.  Plus, they are just plain fun sometimes.

E.g.  I am currently building my 2nd and 3rd Reapers.  When I field all of them together, Vect will be close by to help seize initiative, if I need to.
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 15:02

I don't like them. In game terms I think they're fine, but I'd rather create and develop my own character. So if I ever use the Baron, it will most definitely be in a "counts as" capacity. I also probably retain a bias against the use of special characters left over from the early editions of the game.

Oddly, I love Warmachine and Hordes, in which all characters are special. Go figure.

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Jack Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 16:19

Yeah, back in the early days I think we had a game that contained Kharn, Abaddon, Fabious, Ezekiel, and Marneus. I remember Ezekiel dying and Kharn grabbing the book of secrets. After stuff like that is when we stopped using them.
You guys are right. Thats probably where my aversion to using them stems from. Hmmm.
Things are a lot different in todays games and there are many different types of gamers out there.
To each is own.

-Jack-

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 17:25

So many people prefer games like this.   I dont know anyone that plays games with out HQ's though.  Probably because they are so competative though.  This thread does make a good point when I think of it.  The game is more balanced without HQ's.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 17:52

@shadowseercB wrote:
I dont know anyone that plays games with out HQ's though.


Because they don't have a choice, you have to take a HQ in the game rules, HQ and two troops are mandatory choices. Unless you house rule it.

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Jack Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 19:01

I'm kind of confused, ShadowseercB. Did I give off the impression that my group does't use HQ's?
If so that's not what I was aiming for. Just no SC's. As Mush points out, you have to have an HQ choice. I find it more fun to build story (fluff) around my survivable HQ choices. If they die though there's always the Hemonculi. "We can rebuild him!...For a price"
Thanks.

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Black Death
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 16 2013, 07:47

For my gaming group, it usually depends on what size, points wise, we're playing. I like the idea of a lot of the SC's but in most of my builds, depending on which army, as to what I will take. Some SC's, like the Baron, are not overwhelming and when I play my DE, I will take him(I own a lot of hellions). As for what they did to my Deathwing, hmph, ruined. With the new Eldar, I've just been using autarch's , spiritseers and farseers. I think a lot just depends on your opponents play style as well as your own. Like already stated, just a game, so having fun should be the main goal.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 16 2013, 08:56

@Jack Frost wrote:
I'm kind of confused, ShadowseercB. Did I give off the impression that my group does't use HQ's?

Well thats the way I interpreted it. I personally feel the same way actually. I always thought it was silly because if they die in my game what then? Besides that Vect is pretty busy keeping Commorragh straight and watching his own back to take a real space raid.


The way I get around it is that, atleast for DE since its easier to do rather than SM, I have an archon with amazing powers that rival or come close to Vect and has the same abilities. Of course he is very expensive and i dont use him but you get the point.
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 16 2013, 15:39

@hellios wrote:
It is also a matter of how the rules have been written...

In 3rd for example... I believe you needed your opponents consent to use Special Characters... Special Characters often weren't very good anyway...

Now special characters are often good, but they also make major changes to some armies... Hell I'm rather annoyed that my Deathwing army now requires me to take Belial... I can't run a strike-force under the command of a chaplain or librarian.

Techancly Black Templar special characters are still opponets permission! They kinda suck though.

@Ben_S wrote:
Yeah, I don't like SCs much either. It's funny that people seem more accepting of SCs than Allies, just because Allies are new in 6th edition. I'd have thought that there would be far more cases of Dark Eldar fighting alongside Eldar than of Vect himself leading raids. But at the end of the day, it's up to each individual what they want to use in their army.

I think it's the cheesy combo's people have found, or min maxing to get the super unit, that have caused a hatred of allies.
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PostSubject: Re: Using Special Characters   Using Special Characters I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 17 2013, 09:44

There's no reason to dislike them. They're usually no more powerful than a standard custom-made option, they just have personal, special wargear and rules. If you want their rules but not them specifically, just use their rules and use your own model and backstory, no-one ever said you have to be using that exact character.

Yes it's sometimes annoying when they're the method of unlocking FoC changes, but Typhus is really the only situation where I imagine that would be annoying because you might want, say, a Biker Lord and Zombies.

Belial is a common one, but he is the one and only Master of the Deathwing, there are only about a hundred of them, a large number of which are probably in your army at the time if you're playing pure Deathwing. A pure Deathwing force is a relatively rare thing which would indeed almost certainly be led by Belial, considering the percentage of their number a pure Deathwing army encompasses.

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