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SOlyer
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PostSubject: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 09 2013, 20:13

I have alot of people in my local areal that seem to be playing CSM. They usually have 1 helldrake in their army list. I am writing a new list for the next tournament for 1500 pts right now and am just wondering how others have dealt with helldrake's or CSM in general.
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hellios
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 09 2013, 20:16

It would be useful to know what you normally run, and what problems you face, if any. Although I imagine helldrakes have been causing problems.
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SOlyer
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 09 2013, 21:07

I am writing a list where I can utilize half coven (wracks, Grotesques, and a talos) and then the other half is kabal (some warriors and 2 Ravagers). I am trying to make the list work for 1500 pts but don't know what else I should do in order to kill the helldrake that seems to thwart even my own flyers if I was going to take one. The other players usually bring a flyer as well, but none of them do as much damage as that stupid helldrake.
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Zaakath
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 09 2013, 21:18

As much as I hate ignoring things like it, I'll typically only deal with it when it becomes necessary. A warrior squad in venom with a blaster is my go to unit for dealing with fliers until other armor is dealt with; when my ravager/raiders start to go there.

The warrior/blaster/venom combo allows for some maneuverability while dealing with the helldrake, and since you're already snap firing if you move 12", you're not really losing anything taking the pot shot at the drake.
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SOlyer
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 09 2013, 21:30

hmmm that actually helps out quite a bit. I was debating if I should get the blasters with the 5 man squads or if it was a waste or not. Here is my list as of now.

Kabal of the twisted torment

1500 pt Coven List

HQ
Urien Rakarth - 190

Elites
3 Grotesques, +1 St and a liquifier gun with Urien in a Raider, - 190
4 blasterborn in a venom with duel splinter cannons, NS - 183

Troops
10 Kabolite Warriors, splinter cannon, Raider with Splinter Racks, NS - 180
10 wracks, 2 liquifier guns, Raider - 190
5 warriors, blaster in a venom with duel splinter cannons - 125
5 warriors, blaster in a venom with duel splinter cannons - 125

Heavy Support
Ravager, NS - 115

Ravager, NS - 115

Talos Pain Engine, Twin linked Liquifier gun, Razor flails, Stinger Pods - 120




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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 09 2013, 22:46

Movement, assault and target saturation.

Here's a link to a practical example.

Hope that helps. Smile

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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 10 2013, 00:07

How about the new Crimson Hunter. The exarch version should be good at taking them down. Of course, if they have loads, then it becomes tricky...
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SOlyer
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 10 2013, 22:04

Right before posting on here, I did a search for helldrake and found that same battle report. It was really interesting. I enjoyed it quite a bit and it had given me some good ideas. Luckily its not looking like I am going to need to worry about 3 helldrakes and only 1. I was just posting to see if anyone else had other ideas or specific set ups they used when facing helldrakes.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 11 2013, 01:00

Just so you know, you can't have TL liquifier AND chainflails. It's sad but true......
I always struggle with those stupid things as well, if you get lucky you take it down if not.......Wooomph!.
I run 2 Razorwings in my list, it's on the forum under 1650pts list. One of the 'wings has darklances/Splintercannon to take shots @ Flyers/ Flying MC's.


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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 11 2013, 07:11

Timatron is right you can't take liquifiers and chain flails on a talos. But to be honest you don't need to this edition.

In my opinion the most flexible talos build is twinliquifiers & twin splinter cannons, the splinter cannons are key to getting an early pain token on the thing.

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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 11 2013, 16:27

Why not? If you pay for the additional CCW couldn't you turn that into the chain flails? Obviously still paying the cost for all of it. So 100 + 15 (add ccw) + 5 twin LG+ 10 fr chain flails???? Total 130

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 11 2013, 17:43

Re-read the Talos entry. It says "replace one of it's close combat weapons with one of the following". That means you can only replace one weapon, not two. Smile

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 01:09

Thanks Mush, saved my keyboard for me.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 08:23

Back on the subject of Helldrakes I have an absolute hatred of the damn things as I play against one pretty much every week and find it almost impossible to destroy without dedicating an obscene portion of my army list to anti-air. Now I admit that at least some of the problem is my inability to roll more than a 2 on the vehicle damage chart (seriously, I've gone 6 games now and only rolled more than 2 once!) but I think the combination of AV12, being a flyer, ignoring stun and shaken results, having an invulnerable rather than cover save and regenerating lost hull points is extremely tough and when combined with the ridiculous 360 degree arc, S6 AP3 flamer makes the Helldrake without a doubt the most broken unit in the game at this point in time.

I proxied an Eldar Crimson Hunter in my game last night, managed to bring it on right behind the Helldrake and fired 4 S8 AP2 weapons up it's backside. Even with the Exarch upgrade I managed to miss one shot and then only got 2 glances and a pen with the remaining 3 after rerolls! The bloody thing saved one of the glances, I rolled a 2 for the damage, which it ignores, and to add insult to injury it then regenerated one of the hull points it lost. I felt like screaming, and actually did when he then managed to down the Crimson Hunter with a snap-firing plasma gun from the back of a Rhino! Mad

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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 09:12

They are totally ridiculous! It's the fact that they're so undercosted. They're not much more than an Exarch Crimson Hunter right? 
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 09:41

@mug7703 wrote:
They are totally ridiculous! It's the fact that they're so undercosted. They're not much more than an Exarch Crimson Hunter right? 

They are less!

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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 09:46

@Mushkilla wrote:
@mug7703 wrote:
They are totally ridiculous! It's the fact that they're so undercosted. They're not much more than an Exarch Crimson Hunter right? 



They are less!
Explodes.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 10:29

@Mushkilla wrote:
@mug7703 wrote:
They are totally ridiculous! It's the fact that they're so undercosted. They're not much more than an Exarch Crimson Hunter right? 



They are less!
And they don't explode when sneezed at.

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Herbert West
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 12:18

Totally agree with that ...

Usualy, people at my store play two helldrakes. It's really difficult to take them down. My tactic against them is based on my list that hasn't changed a lot since the 5th ed : playing 22 anti tank weapons. Usualy, all the opponent's vehicules are crushed in the first two turns. So i can redirect all that firepower to the helldrakes when they come. But it works only half of the time... God, i hate those things !

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 12:26

Hopefully the Tau and Eldar with all their AA (broadsides, markerlights, skyray, wave serpent, war walkers, etc) will force those Helldrake lists to go away, well at least the triple helldrake variant that is all too popular. Smile

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Herbert West
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 12:54

Also, in tournaments, most of the people know they will face some aircrafts, and the consequence is that there is anti flyer firepower in almost every list. 


In France, i've already seen signs of a dicreasing use of the aircrafts in competitions. Competitions that also begin to massively use restrictions on the number of allowed aircraft : more than the half of the tournaments don't autorise more than 2 flyers.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 12:58

So the Necron French Breakfast (la boulangerie I think it's called in french) is not popular in france? Razz

Flyers are a bit of a problem this edition, I haven't bought any yet, and I'm glad as GW seems to be releasing more and more AA every codex.

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Herbert West
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 13:35

Necron French Breakfast...How cute ^^

It was very used ( really over used, i should say), often together with some Blood angels sweet stuff. But now, it's really difficult to find a tournament that accepts that kind of lists, and even if you manage to find one, most of the time there's a quote on your list, measuring if it's a fun one or a stomping one. Quotes that will count a bit in the final ranking. 

I don't think that kind of list could be popular anywhere... Razz

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 22:24

Are you talking about some kind of 'comp' system Herb? Down here we are looking into implementing a system of that type in our friendly tournaments. Something along the lines of the 'Swedish comp' system for Fantasy, that rewards 'soft-score points' for non-optimised lists ;takes them away for uber-cheesy lists. Would you be able to furnish any specific details of the quota system you're referring to?
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: CSM Helldrake's   CSM Helldrake's I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 13 2013, 22:31

Problem with "comp scores" is they are subject to the bias of the tournament organiser.

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