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 Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion

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Tangentical
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PostSubject: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 12:25

Hi guys,

I'm fresh from recording a Eldar codex first thoughts segment with 40kUK and wrote this on some nasty combos with the new Eldar codex...

http://www.40kglobal.com/2013/06/01/top-5-new-codex-eldar-dark-eldar-trickery/

Anyone else have some nice new and suitably evil ideas?

Think we'll be recording a follow up and I'm hoping I've only scratched the surface.

Cheers

Chris

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 13:14

Should this be in the eldar section?

Anyhow, I can't wait to run a farseer with fortune alngside an arhon. Although it is now more difficult to get fortune as you need to roll on the runes of fate table to get it.
Conferring infiltrate is an interesting one, 10 grots infiltrating would fun!
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 13:33

Hi,

It's the age of allies my friend and these aren't Eldar tactics but ways we Archons can exploit our Crafteorkd cousins for our own ends!

Time to go off and kill some smug Tau!

Chris

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 14:50

I will point out that its questionable about infiltrating with illic

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 15:51

Moving this to the Eldar section as it's a discussion about using Eldar Allies and how to get the most out of them. That's exactly what the Eldar section is for. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 17:08

@Massaen wrote:
I will point out that its questionable about infiltrating with illic

Any reason? He has the infiltrate USR which passes to units he is deployed with per 6th ed rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 17:33

Its one of those timing things. Theres no rule for holding a unit without infiltrate back to deploy with illic, same for shadowsun trying to infiltrate say, crisis suits.
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 19:15

@Brom wrote:
Its one of those timing things. Theres no rule for holding a unit without infiltrate back to deploy with illic, same for shadowsun trying to infiltrate say, crisis suits.
This. RAW it's downright forbidden since you have to deploy the unit without infiltration or you have to keep them in reserves, but you can't deploy them in the infiltration "phase" since the UCM doesn't count as in the unit, until they got deployed.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 20:24

@SleepyPillow wrote:

This. RAW it's downright forbidden since you have to deploy the unit without infiltration or you have to keep them in reserves, but you can't deploy them in the infiltration "phase" since the UCM doesn't count as in the unit, until they got deployed.

wrong actually. This was the case last edition where ICs joined units during deployment, after when you had to choose how they are placed. This has been changed this edition to let things like Shrike work now. All the rules needed to understand are on pg 38 and and 39.

So yes, you can use the Nightspear to infiltrate well...anything as close to the enemy as you want.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 20:51

Well thats interesting. We had the same discussion over on gw-fanworld (one of the biggest German TT-sites) and someone came with the argument that shrike has his own FAQ and is the only possibility to do this trick . I didn't read his FAQ entry until now but the wording of it tells me that you should be right.

On the other hand, page 43 second paragraph (german rulebook, should be page 39 for the English one) still tells me that ICM's join units in the deployment. I'm unsure about this topic. Sad


edit: found some other topics about this question which convinced me back that Brom and me a right. Most of it is in German too sadly, so I cant add much to the topic.. :3 ,

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 21:11

Yes there is. Page 39 of the rulebook:

Quote :
Joining and Leaving a Unit: An independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in a unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

Now lets move to Infiltrate on page 38:

Quote :
Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed...

...An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during the deployment.

So here is how its broken down. Does Nightspear join the Grots in reserve? yes. Does one model have Infiltrate? Yes. Does Nightspear have Infiltrate? Yes. All things are allowed. So Nightspear can infiltrate with the Grots.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 21:28

Sorry but I don't feel like this is right.
Beeing in reserve prevents you from using the infiltration move since unit's in reserve have to come from either your deployment-side or via outflank/shocktroup.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 21:37

what is infiltrating if it isn't reserves??? you have two options when deploying your forces. The table or reserves. That is it. Infiltrating is done AFTER you have deployed, so that unit is in reserves using the special rule Infiltrate to be placed on the table. The difference is that Infiltrate overwrites the normal reserves deployment, just like how outflank allows you to come on a side table edge.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 02 2013, 21:53

I never saw infiltration that way. I'm going to talk with some other people tomorrow about your interesting opinion. (its late here) Night. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 00:48

Yep, that the issue... There is no infiltrate phase... You either deploy or you reserve. Infiltrate is done during deployment (if its reserve, roll turn 2and so on) and as such, you can't transfer infiltrate typically via characters

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 02:01

My car died on Thurs so I couldnt go get the new codex. ><

From what I'm hearing tho the Spiritseer is a new HQ that allows Wraith Guard/ Blades as troops. Anyone whose seen the new book have any knowledge on that? I'm thinking 2 squads of Wraiths and a Spiritseer as my new allied Eldar groups.
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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 02:07

Yeah he gives a really good ability to them too as well as bringing new psych abilities.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 02:48

@Ciirian wrote:
My car died on Thurs so I couldnt go get the new codex. ><

From what I'm hearing tho the Spiritseer is a new HQ that allows Wraith Guard/ Blades as troops. .

OUCH silent Sorry about the car.
At least the Spiritseer lets you take Wraith units as troops. (I know, you'd rather have your car running Mad )

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 03:15

@Massaen wrote:
Yep, that the issue... There is no infiltrate phase... You either deploy or you reserve. Infiltrate is done during deployment (if its reserve, roll turn 2and so on) and as such, you can't transfer infiltrate typically via characters

Again I don't agree. Take a look at the FAQ for shrike

Quote :
Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen. Replace this entry with the following:
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule).

"That he joined before deployment". That he joined before deployment insists that Shrike is with the squad before you deploy the unit. Is it this ability gives him the ability to join a unit??? Or is it the IC status in general...

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 04:45

I agree that shrike sets a precedent but unfortunately that's all it. Essentially he gets a version of infiltrate no one else gets... as the rules are now, you must join at deployment by putting the IC in coherency or in reserve with a unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 06:40

I will agree that this is a sign of GW's lazy writing, but you all are taking it too lterally. They clearly intend for characters to infiltrate with units, because if they did not, there would not be the line about characters not with infiltrate being able to infiltrate with squads, as the IC could never have a chance to join said infiltrators... Its clear as day to me, and I cant see why anyone would try to argue against it. Its black and white to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 08:57

That is special ability for shrike. Codex trumps rule book. Rule book states that independent characters cannot infiltrate unless it has the special rule. I would love to get a HQ to deploy Mandrakes. That would make them semi useful.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 09:03

@shadowseercB wrote:
That is special ability for shrike. Codex trumps rule book. Rule book states that independent characters cannot infiltrate unless it has the special rule. I would love to get a HQ to deploy Mandrakes. That would make them semi useful.

Re-read the entry, it doesn't prevent special characters with infiltrate allowing a unit without infiltrate to infiltrate. That's what the argument is about. Not whether a character without infiltrate can infiltrate with a unit that has infiltrate.

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 09:12

I agree that it allows IC's to infiltrate to other infiltrating units and thus deploy with them. I agree that with infiltrate, an IC can join a squad in reserve and thus outflank.

At no point in the BRB, regardless of RAI, does it allow you to join a unit so they can infiltrate - unless you can find a passage I can't

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PostSubject: Re: Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion   Nightspear and infiltrating unit discussion I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 03 2013, 09:30

I think Massaen is right. The book says that an independent character is deployed by being placed in coherency of a unit on the table, or joins them in reserve.

Infiltrating takes place after both armies have deployed all of their non-infiltrating units, except those in reserve. If the unit doen't have infiltrate you have to deploy it unless its in reserves, or has some other special rule.

Technically if you attempted it you would never reach the step of deployment in which infiltrators are deployed since you still have a unit to deploy that isn't in reserves (page 121). If you move the unit to reserves then it doesn't get deployed until a reserve roll is made.

I don't know if this is what the intended with it but it seems to me to be how it is written. I also doubt that they intended you to be able to infiltrate what ever unit you want into the enemy army with no range restriction, although it would be fun to do once in awhile.
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