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tlronin
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PostSubject: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 14:50

I've been wondering something while assembling my Reavers (and this could've also been discussed at a general WH40K tactics forum just as well), but...

Everytime someone asks others if they should spread out their special weapons, everybody says they should (I saw this on BoLs recently). But I've been thinking about wound allocation and I think your special stuff stays in the game longer if you pile them up on the same guy.

So in this case I was thinking to myself why not give the Arena Champion also a Heatlance?

Consider a squad of 6 Reavers, with 2x heatlances and 1x Champion. They get hit 5 times (not considering morale checks and stuff like that).

- In the case I described above you'd allocate a hit on 5 Reavers in the squad except the Champion. So you only lose 1 heatlance. AND you keep your champion + 1 heatlance!

- In the case as where you spread them out you would've lost both heatlances.

Am I missing something?
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Hashmal
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 15:30

You're not missing something, but I don't take the Champion as he's a waste of points.

So, in your example, my 6 Reavers w/ 2x Heat Lances would take 4 hits on the normal group and 1 on the Heat Lance group, still losing only one Heat Lance.

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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 15:50

Yea, I think he worded his example wrong. The only time it would pay off is if you got hit...3 times, meaning you'd still have 3 lances, but durpa durp, you paid for 3, so you should have 3 anyway (my horrible attempt at a joke, as really there are no benefits to wound allocation by adding an additional heat lance). Really the only advantage to 3 in a squad is 3 attempts to kill said tank, and I find that 2 heat lances do a pretty decent job on their own.

But yea, if you took 5 hits on a 3-lance squad you'd end up with 1.
If you took 5 hits on a 2-lance squad you'd end up with 1.

Either way, 5 hits will leave you with 1, unless you buy more bikes, but then your essentially just buying bikes for wound allocation, and they aren't cheap. Now, if you feel you need 3 lances to destroy something, I would consider taking 9 bikes, as you'd get 3 lances, and still have the ability to do some anti-troop damage as well. Once your investing that many points you need to multi-task, otherwise there is no way they'll make their points back popping one tank a turn.

For a purely tank hunting unit though, 2 lances is cheaper and just as effective, at least in my experience.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 20:49

Thnx 4 replying guys, but I'm getting the feeling my question is not understood.

Forget the Arena Champion.

We have a squad of 6 Reavers. I give them 2 heat lances and 2 cluster caltrops (you can take both per 3 right).

BUT... Instead of spreading them out I put a heat lance + a cluster caltrop both on the same reaver.

Ok, imagine we spread out the special weapons (like what people claim is better) and our Reaver squad suffers 3 hits. So we give 2 hits to the 2 'plain' reavers and 1 hit goes to either a reaver with a cluster caltrop or one with a heat lance. So it's possible in this scenario we lose a special weapon.

Now imagine that from the 6 reavers in the squad we only have two 'special' reavers. 'Cause they both own a heat lance + a cluster caltrop. We get hit 3 times again, and i allocate the hits on 3 'plain' reavers. I lose 0 special weapons.

Am I right?
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 25 2011, 08:45

The only point the champion has is that he gives them +1 ld, which can be handy since Reavers come in small units and are therefore easily subjected to morale checks from taking 25% causalities. Since they fall back 3D6'', having ahigher leadership to prevent them from falling off the board can be handy. Not somethign I'd take unless I happened to have 10 points extra, tho.

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xerxeshavelock
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 25 2011, 09:21

I will be putting my Cluster Caltrops on the same bike as the Blaster for exactly that reason.
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 25 2011, 09:54

A finally someone that understands me. Thnx xerxeshavelock. So I'm not crazy. Ok, I'll proceed with assembling my Reavers this way.

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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 25 2011, 17:45

Well, that was a pretty logical choice. I've never heard of anyone spreading out special weapons. Unless they're on multi-wound models for wound allocation. You always want as man specials packed on one, and as many ablative wounds as possible, without going overboard. I can think of almost NO reason to do it otherwise Very Happy
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 25 2011, 17:50

The real question, of course, is why you would bother with caltrops in the first place Razz

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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 25 2011, 18:10

@Raneth wrote:
The real question, of course, is why you would bother with caltrops in the first place Razz

True, it would be a waste of points, lance reaver jetbikes are a suicide unit, at most your flying over 1 maybe 2 squads before the unit goes down, why spend more...
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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 25 2011, 20:33

@GreySeerZ wrote:
@Raneth wrote:
The real question, of course, is why you would bother with caltrops in the first place Razz

True, it would be a waste of points, lance reaver jetbikes are a suicide unit, at most your flying over 1 maybe 2 squads before the unit goes down, why spend more...

I disagree, from my exp squad with 2 heatlance/2 clatrop/arena champion w/agonizer was win in 3 to 5 battles they were in. Sure its bit fat unit....but it gives versality and with 7 guys in you can actualy charge disembarking unit and dont fight with 4:1 ratio.

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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 26 2011, 14:20

I try to keep my reavers out of combat, personally. Have them zoom around and potshot with their lances, while other units handle the actual assaults.
T4 aside, they only pack a 5up save, and will get minced against most units.
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 26 2011, 15:47

@GreySeerZ wrote:
Well, that was a pretty logical choice. I've never heard of anyone spreading out special weapons. Unless they're on multi-wound models for wound allocation. You always want as man specials packed on one, and as many ablative wounds as possible, without going overboard. I can think of almost NO reason to do it otherwise Very Happy

You'd be suprised. This whole topic started because I read tactics on Warseer and BoLs where peeps claimed it was better to spread out and I got confused. Why they say? Because (with this current example) you wouldn't lose your heatlance ánd cluster caltrop at the same time.

But then again... I forgot I was amongst lesser races on those fora. They don't understand aparantly it takes more hits to get to your special fellas. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 15:47

the dis-advantage is two fold - if you get a larger amount of hits and you fail the wrong save you lose both caltrops AND a champion/heatlance

second is wound allocation shenanigans. This is especially true on on multi-wound models - different wargear allows you to allocate wounds. So 3 successful wounds on 3 difference multi wound models means each model takes one wound. If two are armed the same and they only have 2 wounds you must remove a model which means the lose effectiveness. The same logic can apply to normal units but it is much more situation specific. So I would run this unit as you suggested.

Finally (and this is from memory) the champion does not have the option of taking either a heat lance or a caltrop. Only normal bikers. but I see no reason why you couldn't put both on the one model.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 16:12

As far as I see it, there's nothing saying you can't give a model heatlance, then upgrade said model to a champion. I use that with Wracks since normla Wracks lose one of their ccws to take liquifier, but the Acothyst doesn't care as his special weapon if bough in addition to the 2 he normally has.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 16:29

@Nomic wrote:
As far as I see it, there's nothing saying you can't give a model heatlance, then upgrade said model to a champion. I use that with Wracks since normla Wracks lose one of their ccws to take liquifier, but the Acothyst doesn't care as his special weapon if bough in addition to the 2 he normally has.

I concur.
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 19:43

if you were playing me in a tournament I'd call a rules judge as the weapons choices for champions are clearly layed out and heat lance is not one of them. Its like trying to give a meltagun to a space marine sergent.
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 21:08

@Nomic wrote:
As far as I see it, there's nothing saying you can't give a model heatlance, then upgrade said model to a champion. I use that with Wracks since normla Wracks lose one of their ccws to take liquifier, but the Acothyst doesn't care as his special weapon if bough in addition to the 2 he normally has.

A model can either carry two one-handed weapons, or a single one-handed and a single two-handed weapon. AFAIK taking the liq-gun automatically replaces one of the poisoned weapons, so I'd call a judge on this... but if you want to take a heat lance Arena Champion, I wouldn't give you any trouble.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 23:18

@Nomic wrote:
As far as I see it, there's nothing saying you can't give a model heatlance, then upgrade said model to a champion. I use that with Wracks since normla Wracks lose one of their ccws to take liquifier, but the Acothyst doesn't care as his special weapon if bough in addition to the 2 he normally has.

In fact there is something that says you can.
"..., such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own and are effectively just another trooper in their unit, ..." (BRB p.47)
So as the unit entry says Wracks may take Liquifiers or Reavers may take Heat Lances and the BRB says Upgrade Characters are just normal troopers, of course they may take one.

@Raneth wrote:
A model can either carry two one-handed weapons, or a single one-handed and a single two-handed weapon. AFAIK taking the liq-gun automatically replaces one of the poisoned weapons, so I'd call a judge on this... but if you want to take a heat lance Arena Champion, I wouldn't give you any trouble.

This "rule" is a relic of 3rd edition codices wargear section.
Good example is the old DE codex: "Characters may be given up to two single-handed weapons, or a single-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon." (DE_C 3rd ed. 1998 p.6)

So it's not how many weapons a model may have, but how many you may give to a character. AND this rule is not in our new codex! It isn't in any of the new codices afaik.

A model may take as many weapons as is possible. (e.g. a Haemonculus may have four. Splinter Pistol, CCW, Scissorhand and Hexrifle.) But it may only shoot one ranged and use only two one-handed or one two-handed close combat weapons, per turn. (unless a special rule says otherwise)

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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 28 2011, 23:54

I stand corrected. Thank you Tiri-rana
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 00:15

As was I, for which also my thanks. I guess it's not too difficult grafting a couple o' extra arms on Wracks, anyway. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 01:26

Tiri Rana, does that really mean that Space Marine Sergeants can get Meltas, Devastator Sergeants Lascannons, Long Fang pack leaders Missile Launchers, etc? For us: Acothysts and Aberrations can get Liquifiers, Dracons/Sybarites Blasters?

Call me old-fashioned, but that seems strange to me.
And I've never met/seen/heard of someone doing this. :-/

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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 02:15

Sgt etc. =/= Tactical Marine etc. . Tactical marine (etc.) refer to nonupgraded member.

Look at Harlequins and Trueborn entries.

"Any Harlequin can take Fusion Pistol" mean any. Like "no means no". Or rather "yes means yes".


Now check Trueborn, it does specify what Trueborn McScrubs can take and what DJ-Dracon can. "Square peg, meet round hole" kind of situation.

If I'm correct, the only other exception in whole game is Ork Boyz Nob that may take Big Shoota or Rokkit Launcha instead of pistol. Boyz entry say "1 Ork per 10 may replace Pistol" and since Boy nor Nob =/= Ork, this (indirectly, so people ofen think You can't do that) mean ANY member.

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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 02:25

Actually I just checked the codex and the only units that specifically say 'every/any model' are the Harlequins, Bloodbrides and the Wyches. So a Syren/Hekatrix with Shardnets & Co. are okay.
On the other hand, the other entries always only mention the unupgraded troopers, so for example 'every Trueborn may take blahblah' and then 'one Trueborn may be upgraded to a Dracon'. The Dracon is not the same as a Trueborn, just as a Space Marine Sergeant is not the same as a regular Marine, hance both cannot take any of the weapon upgrades normal troopers can, and vice versa.


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PostSubject: Re: Heatlances and Reavers   Heatlances and Reavers I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 29 2011, 02:29

/\
100% correct. Guess I'm pretty lazy with searching those "special" squads.

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