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 Acothyst with scissorhand

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Thor665
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 04 2011, 02:50

Scissorhands work in so many wonderful ways.

Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 Edward_scissorhands

Want a DE model of...

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 22:39

Scissor hands are amazing for CC. here is how I look at it.

Haemonculus no charge with 2 flesh gauntlet and scissor hands = 2 attacks with the fleshgauntlets (4+) 1 bonus attack two same weapon 1 attack with scissor hands = 4 attacks (3+) with flesh gauntlets special rules

( Could be wrong with this though)

pg 42 rule only rulebook: Two of the same special weapon (there both poisoned weapons)
these models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon's bonuses and penalties.

Acothyst no charge with 2 base attacks (4+) +1 attack bonus for two single-handed weapons +1 with scissor hands = 4 attack (3+)

pg 42 rule only rulebook: A normal and a special weapon: These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from special weapon's bonuses.
Power fists, thunder, hammers, and lightning claws are an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer, or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 22:48

@lululu_42 wrote:

pg 42 rule only rulebook: Two of the same special weapon (there both poisoned weapons)

No.

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 22:52

@Raneth wrote:
@lululu_42 wrote:

pg 42 rule only rulebook: Two of the same special weapon (there both poisoned weapons)

No.

Can you explain a little better than no since in the Dark eldar Codex the flesh gauntlet is considered a poisoned weapon.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 14 2011, 23:36

By the same logic, an Agoniser is a Power Weapon. An Agoniser has the effects of a power weapon, but is not a Power Weapon as regards being the same. Same difference, the Flesh Gauntlet has poison effects, that does not make it identical to a Poisoned Weapon - otherwise they wouldn't have different names and rules.

Make sense?

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 00:09

I see where your coming from. Doesn't make 100% sense to me but I definitely see where your coming from. I'll have to ask my LGS see what he says.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 10:29

@lululu_42 wrote:
@Raneth wrote:
@lululu_42 wrote:

pg 42 rule only rulebook: Two of the same special weapon (there both poisoned weapons)

No.

Can you explain a little better than no since in the Dark eldar Codex the flesh gauntlet is considered a poisoned weapon.

Sorry, I must have come across like a ****. I was simply pointing out where the flaw in your logic was. Thor explained it quite clearly though. Fluff-wise I agree it makes no sense; a regular ccw would provide a bonus attack but dipping it in poison apparently squashes that benefit. Nor does the Acothyst ever feel like wiping the damn poison off his blade now that he has a better weapon.

These rules are rather wonky, and I'd like to see them rewritten. Razz

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 15:33

@Raneth wrote:
@lululu_42 wrote:

pg 42 rule only rulebook: Two of the same special weapon (there both poisoned weapons)

No.

I thought this was the best explanation of the entire thread cheers
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 21:41

@Thor665 wrote:
By the same logic, an Agoniser is a Power Weapon. An Agoniser has the effects of a power weapon, but is not a Power Weapon as regards being the same. Same difference, the Flesh Gauntlet has poison effects, that does not make it identical to a Poisoned Weapon - otherwise they wouldn't have different names and rules.

Make sense?

Okay so what your saying is that the agnoiser isn't a power weapon because it's not named a power weapon? even though it says Agonisers are power weapons? Same thing on scissorhand and Flesh gauntlet. The codex says it is a poisoned weapon.

I feel really confused because looking at the wording of the codex and main book it looks like I am right (to me) but then the people who have played longer than me say differently

GW Clarify your rules! scratch
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 21:52

Oh, are we still beating that dead horse?

If I can use analogy, compare white and yellow.
They are in the same category (colours), yet they aren't the same thing.
Same with "fancy" weapons. They work like those "basic" special weapons (let's say PW can mean PW as wargear or PW as "no armour saves in CC" rule) but ain't one.

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 22:02

So they have the same rules but there not considered poisoned or power weapons because there not named poisoned or power weapon.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 22:08

I feel like you're trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

Yes, the Agoniser clearly has the rule effects for and is a power weapon.

No, an agoniser is not a Power Weapon because it is an Agoniser.

Let's help make this clearer;

The rule effect of being a power weapon (ignoring armor saves) I'm going to call aardvark.
The piece of wargear that most armies can buy, the power weapon, I'm going to call banana.

Yes, the Agoniser clearly has the rule effects for and is an aardvark.

No, an agoniser is not a banana because it is an Agoniser.

Make sense?

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 22:19

But they don't have the same rules. The Acothyst's standard weapon is a poisoned weapon (4+), the Scissorhand is a poisoned weapon (3+), that grants +1 Attack. They both use the same weapon trait (poison) but besides that they are completely different.

The rules in the BRB (p.42) are pretty clear. The only ways to get an extra attack with one special close combat weapon is to either use a normal close combat weapon or the same weapon twice. And agonisers and PWs, may both be Pws, but they are not exactly the same and Poisoned weapons (4+) and Scissorhands are both poisoned weapons, but not exactely the same. Just as the GKs Nemesis force weapons, that are all force weapons, but not all the same and not the same like a normal force weapon.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 22:21

Aardvarks v. bananas.

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 22:23

Thats what I said.

Ether way there rules seemed to read (to me) as though power weapons was a type of weapon like a broad sword is a sword, a straight sword is a sword, a rapier is a sword, a machete is a sword.

well time to rework my list T_T

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 22:33

The specific wording is done by them in explaining what is a special weapon and how it is treated.

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 22:42

@Local_Ork wrote:
Oh, are we still beating that dead horse?


My sentiments exactly. cheers
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 23:50

It's worth it to go over again if someone is still confused by the rules though.

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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 15 2011, 23:53

To be honest we chould make unofficial DE FAQ for that kind of "confusing" stuff. Like Da Waaagh did.

Hmm... deja vu, proposed that one once Razz.

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Acothyst with scissorhand   Acothyst with scissorhand - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 16 2011, 22:18

Yea sorry to beat the dead horse it's just that when i read it it read that power weapons where types of weapons. I just don't understand why they didn't write it as it has the same special rules as power weapons.

Thanks for being patient with me.

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