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PostSubject: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2013, 17:38

I have a unit of: 6 Hellions (Helliarch (splinter pistol, venom blade, phantasm grenade launcher))=126 pts
I use them for deep striking and taking out small sniping/long ranged squads (only when they are bad at assaulting). This is normally a 2 turn combat, but then I am stuck behind enemy lines with a small, weak unit with an 18" splinter pod range. Then I make a tactical mess-up and lose a unit to my opponent's standard troops (usually Dire Avengers).

IT'S EMBARRASSING!!!

So please can someone help me Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2013, 18:09

I suspect the more experienced archons will tell you that you shouldn't expect a six man Hellion squad to survive the game. As long as they accomplished whatever purpose you tasked them with then you should be satisfied with their performance and your use of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2013, 18:28

I agree with Joe - Helions are expensive in points but you need to go the full way to make them worthwhile,

Squards of 15 are noramlly pretty good. I think i 6 man squad if they have acomplished their purpose you should be happy with, anythign else is a bonus
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2013, 18:51

I was thinking of expanding the unit to give them better survivability.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeTue May 21 2013, 18:59

Snil- that would be a good idea although you need to make sure you optimuse the unit size ( im sure other who use helliosn more regularly can input what that is) because if you spend a ton of points on these you dont want it to be a waste by being just a bit to small.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 08:18

you only run hellions in one big squad with baron. Anything smaller tan 10 isn't worth it, and even then without baron they are pretty terrible. A venom without the range or survivability.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 09:05

I've had good experience with a 20 man blob of Hellions and the Baron attached. Then hop from terrain to terrain (no deepstriking). It terrifies the opponent and makes him focus a lot of firepower.

I agree with the rest though that 6 is just too small to do anything significant.

Will not work on Tau though with their markerlights.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 16:14

I would like to go for a 20 unit but I am on a limited budget and therefore can probably only manage a 10 (11) man unit. No

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 17:23

your best bet is to convert a baron for them, and then use them as a sudo shooty/ counter assault unit. Try to make them threatening and the opponent will focus fire on them. Make sure they are in cover at all times, and watch shots pour off of them. Sadly with the advent of focus fire, a good player wont fall for it (or just strip those that are out of cover) and your lose a unit like that fast. But that is besides the point.

Just be aggressive with their shooting, and remember that they are decent in assault as well, your do fine. Just don't assault anything you cant win against and stay in combat with for atleast two rounds.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 09 2014, 15:40

convert your own hellions from wytches box/sprue?
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 09 2014, 16:30

So of course I disagree entirely that you need to run helion squads large. Like windrider jetbikes they can be used to secure objectives coming in from reserve ( units of seven or so work well). If they do a little damage that is strictly a bonus but not their primary function. These guys are fast and cheap and can be used where the rest of your list is doing the heavy load of damage. Now I have a few lists where I've found spots for them. Taking the Baron is no brainer in many lists (in mine he sits with scourges). So I think we need to open ourselves up to other applications for these guys.

Now scroll down the page to the Duckdrake's Deathstar list ...

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p280-a-tdc-blog-tactics-unit-analysis-batreps-observations

Okay this list is a bit over the top ... I confess. But the gist of the idea on how Hellions can be used is there.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 09 2014, 17:44

Unlike windriders though hellions dont cost 51 pts for 3+/4++ 36" boost and jsj, not to mention ghetto rending.

If hellions want to perform a similar roll then 5 for 80 pts seems... ok, i guess. Otherwise the units of 7 for 112 are strictly worse than 5 warriors in venom for 110.

tldr my advice is use those hellions as beastmasters in a beasts unit. You will be far happier with their performance.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 09 2014, 19:26

They have splinter pods for poison, they have a skyboard for extra attacks, they are still jump infantry and fast. So they are not that shabby as a troop. And we don't have windriders. It is like saying a vendetta is better than a razorwing.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 09 2014, 23:29

Fair enough on not having windriders as troops.. although I do, and anyone that wants a farseer can too as battle bros. If the OP wants to get creative with a novel idea great the models rock and if the opponents list is friendly enough they will do ok. That said its pretty well accepted that any positive expectations for hellions beyond such scenarios are just polishing a turd.

Edit- now im polishing this unit! puh. IF I were to field hellions it would be as a single unit of 20 with pain token from a haemie add baron sathonyx. The footprint is good for area denial, they have fnp and stealth and put out ok firepower. Downside is the baron really wants a beastpack.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 04:40

Regarding the original question, I'd regard a 5-6 count unit of hellions as a suicide/distraction/tarpit unit. They're gonna die, but if you play them with that intent, then using them to take out backfield units seems perfectly fine. The 'tone' of the question though is you want them to live: Why?

The other responses explain far better than I the pros and cons of different sizes of hellion units, so I won't repeat them.

I will say after trying both (single unit) Baron + hellions as troops vs eldar HQ/Jetbike + windrider allies as objective grabbers, I prefer the eldar. Since we need a 'troop' to survive, the bikes have a bit better chance of surviving if the character gets killed, then the hellions if the Baron bites it. They're also a tiny bit cheaper (roughly, 160 vs 185) for minimum counts.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 10 2014, 05:54

I have 14+Baron and have 2 raiders with grisly trophies from Splinterborn to serve as a mobile cover for one turn. You dont really want them to be focus of enemy attention, they are really squishy.


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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 14 2014, 19:52

I've tried them on multiple occasions (10 Hellions and The Baron), and have been disappointed every time.

- I guess the first thing is that they can't have special weapons, so they're just stuck with their Splinter Pods. I find this something of a pain because a) they have no versatility in their targets, b) they're expensive but their poison is no better than that of my warriors/venoms, c) they're reliant on mass-fire to take down MEQs/TEQs (it's nice when you have a couple of blasters or somesuch thrown in to give such units pause for thought). Hell, I'd settle for a flamer - just something to separate them from the same poison shots I can get anywhere else.

- The second thing is that they seem like a combat unit... and I despise using CC stuff in 6th. Maybe if they brought a bit more to combat... but they don't. "Oh, but they're S4 - so I only need 4s to wound MEQs... unlike my poisoned shooting, which only wounds MEQ on 4s... wait, why am I using this unit again?"

- The third thing is that even with the Baron's stuff, they just don't seem remotely survivable - especially for the points you pay. Even when I can get them good cover, it just seems trivial for my opponent to wipe them off the board - either through weapons that ignore cover, or simply from sheer number of wounds.

It's a shame, because I really want to like them, but every time I've used them it felt like I was flushing those points down the toilet.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 14 2014, 19:54

The Shredder wrote:
I've tried them on multiple occasions (10 Hellions and The Baron), and have been disappointed every time.

- I guess the first thing is that they can't have special weapons, so they're just stuck with their Splinter Pods. I find this something of a pain because a) they have no versatility in their targets, b) they're expensive but their poison is no better than that of my warriors/venoms, c) they're reliant on mass-fire to take down MEQs/TEQs (it's nice when you have a couple of blasters or somesuch thrown in to give such units pause for thought). Hell, I'd settle for a flamer - just something to separate them from the same poison shots I can get anywhere else.

- The second thing is that they seem like a combat unit... and I despise using CC stuff in 6th. Maybe if they brought a bit more to combat... but they don't. "Oh, but they're S4 - so I only need 4s to wound MEQs... unlike my poisoned shooting, which only wounds MEQ on 4s... wait, why am I using this unit again?" Maybe so that I can kill Guard or Tau in combat... if I can somehow reach either of those without being obliterated.  Neutral 

- The third thing is that even with the Baron's stuff, they just don't seem remotely survivable - especially for the points you pay. Even when I can get them good cover, it just seems trivial for my opponent to wipe them off the board - either through weapons that ignore cover, or simply from sheer number of wounds.

It's a shame, because I really want to like them, but every time I've used them it felt like I was flushing those points down the toilet.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 15 2014, 07:02

I've used them in the last 3 games I've played, I've found that they usually work best in 8 - 10 man squads (1 squad @ 1,500 & 2 @ 2,000) the only way I haves used them though is to Deepstrike by or as close to the objective as late in the game as I can so they can be my quick capture or denier unit. So far it's worked beautifully in 2 out of the 3 games.... They misshaped badly in one game.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 15 2014, 18:12

I had five Hellions for quite a while because it took some time to get round to painting them. When I had painted them, I was chuffed with how they looked, but refused to use them until I had at least another box and the Baron. Tiny squads of Hellions die like dogs, and don't achieve anything. Like cammy pointed out, they require investment to make them really work, it's not like taking a little five man Tactical squad because at least they're good for something. I like using the nine I have with the Baron, but know I really need more. Something like twelve to fifteen would really make them less of a worry for me.

The key is finding that sweet spot where the points invested results in a unit that will actually get something done ,but isn't so expensive that you're worried about putting it in danger if you need to, or where you're just throwing models in there that don't improve the odds enough for the unit overall to really merit their inclusion.

And I'm surprised nobody has mentioned one of the huge selling points for Hellions (in my eyes at least) - combat drugs. I find them to be a great equalizer, the possibility of getting strength 6 on the charge if they start with a pain token from a Haemonculus then snack on something small at the start of the game is undeniably good.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 15 2014, 19:04

Mr Believer wrote:
And I'm surprised nobody has mentioned one of the huge selling points for Hellions (in my eyes at least) - combat drugs. I find them to be a great equalizer, the possibility of getting strength 6 on the charge if they start with a pain token from a Haemonculus then snack on something small at the start of the game is undeniably good.

The problem with Combat Drugs though is that you have no control over them, and many are of dubious usefulness:

3d6 run - Pretty pointless with the new fleet rules.
+1WS - I guess it's an ok bonus against WS4 units, but hardly anything special.
+1S - Decent against vehicles, meh against everything else. I'd be more impressed if they had some interesting CC weapons.
Reroll failed to-wound rolls - Better than the above against infantry, but useless against vehicles.
+1A - Meh. In my experience, number of attacks isn't the problem with these guys - the problem is a) getting them to a target alive, and b) their attacks all bouncing off.
Pain Token - This would probably be the one I'd like, because otherwise this squad has horrendous survivability.

I guess I just don't see anything to write home about. Maybe if the above was an extra bonus on an already worthwhile unit - but as a reason to take a sub-par unit, I just don't see the attraction.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 15 2014, 20:28

If you are taking Hellions you are taking them to score. Period. Otherwise just take Beastmasters, and have better combat unit for cheaper.

Hellions are there to get stuck in, to survive, to cause some damage and to eventually take point. Their only safe spot is a close combat with an overwhelmed and outnumbered foe. You want to have 2 phases of combat to hit-n-run at the end second, move, shoot, assault and score or make another cowardly assault in the safe spot.

Cowardly assault is the mantra of Hellions. Shoot venoms, shoot hellions, only then assault. Point of this assault is to not win combat, but to safely stuck them on your terms. Oh, and dont forget to creatively use Focus Fire rule, or you will deny yourself that said assault.

That is the only sane way of using them. It is easy to notice that to achieve this they should bloody have some bodies in the squad, or they wont be able to everwhelm anything. Overwatch dont help it either.

Another thing is - dont use them like Beastmasters, rushing forward and taking point. They will just die, for the purposes of shooting they are in essence slightly faster Guardsmen with a somewhat better cover save.

In combat you should use Baron shadowfield to tank wounds when nessesary.

If all goes well, they will go to ground on objective with FnP and godly 2+ cover save.

You should have a load of dakka to make them work. Also take Personal Traits for Baron, it will give em some edge.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 17 2014, 21:56

I cant believe nobody has said this, but "Absolutely Nothin"
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