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 Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting

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astagoRRe
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PostSubject: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 10:05

I have a fluff question regarding the nature of a Haemonculus's fleshcrafting abilities. Are they able to use this skill in order to create disguises for fellow DE? Like, for example, can they make them look human in order to infiltrate, say, an Imperial camp? I'm running an Only War campaign with my RPG group, and have made the DE my main adversary. (since I have all the models, and DE are the badassest of all non Imperials) I'd like to spring some spies on my group in this way and I want to make sure it's plausible, since most of my group are way more knowledgeable on the 40K universe than I, and I don't want them calling me out on this this. I can't seem to find anything in the role play books, (mostly the Rogue Trader "Soul Reaver" sourcebook, since it's pretty much the only DE sourcebook thus far) so if someone could help a brother out, preferably with sources if possible but if not that's OK too. Thanks!
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 15:08

Pathfinders have been known to walk around in human camps, and most humans (who have never seen an Eldar) might think them just to be a tall humans if the DE keep their ears hidden and movement's in check.

As for Haemie changing them into more human looking... while I doubt any Eldar would accept that order, I dont see it beyond their ability. Its just would the Eldar get over the fact that he would have to lower himself to human's standards.

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Khain mor
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 06:51

Quote :
(mostly the Rogue Trader "Soul Reaver" sourcebook, since it's pretty much the only DE sourcebook thus far) so if someone could help a brother out, preferably with sources if possible but if not that's OK too. Thanks!

I'm kind of confused by what you mean by sourcebook, as far as sources for dark Eldar fluff, best sources are the codex of course, old and new, it's sounds weird I mention the old book, but someof the fluff is still valid, though some changes have been made. The craftworld codex also has some fluff not to be ignored, if you want to know more about eldar themselves. The DE codex does have a nice amount of fluff, however, in the craftworld codex, they talk a lot more about eldar themselves, how they are nothing close to being human. They have the same basic form and organs, but they are completely different, better no doubt about it. There are also the Eldar Path trilogies, an eldar trilogy and a dark eldar trilogy. The eldar one is finished, the 3 books are out and available, they even contain some Dark Eldar parts, the last book has a lot of Dark Eldar stuff in it. Then you have Dark eldar trilogy, which isn't finished, the last book isn't out yet.
Black library books can't be trusted usually, especially not the previous dark eldar related books, however these can be, because of their writers.You learn a lot about eldar reading these books.

Quote :
Pathfinders have been known to walk around in human camps, and most humans (who have never seen an Eldar) might think them just to be a tall humans if the DE keep their ears hidden and movement's in check.
An eldar, cloaked may appear human from far maybe, very far though. In appearance they may look similar if you don't have a good look at them, however what gives them away completely are their movements. They can't change the way they move, in fact they won't by choice. They can't because it's their body and it's natural for them, and they won't because eldar consider themselves better than humans, even the craftworld ones, but it's valid for all eldar, Dark eldar are the morst of them all, they would kill you for an attempt to comparing them to humans.

Quote :
As for Haemie changing them into more human looking... while I doubt any Eldar would accept that order, I dont see it beyond their ability. Its just would the Eldar get over the fact that he would have to lower himself to human's standards.
Heamonculus are scientists within Commorragh, they can pull it off, it would be a huge amount of work, having to redo the entire body and more, however like he says, if you've read the fluff, this is a great insult. For any eldar, for a dark eldar this is simply asking to be killed over a long period of torture.

As far as tech, yes they can do, either change the body completely, they can do anything, scourges are a good example of vast bodymodifications done on eldar. Heamonculus also obviously change their own bodies completely.
The easier solution would be hollograms.
Tech is covered, now there's the moral question, could they go so low to lower themselves to becoming human?
I'll give it to you in a nice way: would you ever consider changing your body into that of a cockroach? This is the nicer version of asking a Dark Eldar to change his body into a human one. Dark Eldar consider every else to be lower than themselves, humans being amonst of the lowest on that list, but frankly, most races are very low on the list.

What is your problem? Not reading enough Dark Eldar fluff, the codex alone could do the job. If you enjoy stories like this, you'll read it several times. I read it again from time to time and I enjoy every time I do it again. Fluff can also be found in white dwarfs for some races, like eldar, but GW doesn't publish much additional dark eldar fluff in white dwarfs, except for a codex release, unit release or a battlereport, which are quite rare. The Site also has some fluff, but nothing that can't be found in the codex.
Like I said, eldar fluff isn't bad, you don't have to read all the eldar fluff, but reading their codex is a nice minimum.

The main problem with your reasoning is that you're thinking like a human. Most Sci fi doens't put too much effort into making aliens look like aliens. GW however id a very good job with the eldar and other races as well. GW isn't just detailed with their models, with their fluff as well. Eldar do have some similarties with humans, in theory both are similar types of being, but they are very different from eachother. Their appearance isn't just different because of their ears only. People mistakes the ears for a small dirrence, but it's not just the ears, it's the height, bone structure, movements, the way they speak, they way they look at you. They are true aliens, don't forget aliens are supposed to be being not from this world, very different from humans. Making aliens into humans is a mistake. Going further into the eldar, analysing all other aspects of their society would surprise you how different they are. I'm a hardcore eldar fan, yet I was surprised when I read the Eldar Path trilogy (Path of the Warrior/Seer/Outcast) , just so many things I didn't really think about before I read the books. A good example is the clothing. Like humans they wear clothes, that's where the similarities stop, past that it's a completely different business.


Now i'll answer the question you asked with an answer that should satisfy you. Could the Dark Eldar have a human spy amongst humans? Yes, it would be a simple human, not a eldar. A human could work for them, easily, they have many ways to force such allegiance.

Humans would resort to such a thing, because they will use any means to achieve their goal, eldar however don't go this low.

Quote :

since most of my group are way more knowledgeable on the 40K universe than I
I suggest, like I said, read at least the codex several times and you'll be very familiar with the Dark Eldar, it's a very nice start. The Dark Eldar trilogy is also a must if you're a dark eldar fan (Path of the Renegade and Path of the Incubi, third book not out yet)
Do this to avoid such to avoid questions like the ones you dared to ask.
Frankly, very few are truly familiar with the Dark Eldar Fluff, even Dark Eldar players themselves don't always bother reading their own codex like they should. Even a Dark Eldar forum is filled with people that aren't that familair with the DE fluff, some people just don't care or don't bother reading it.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 08:47

Soul Reaver is fantasy flight's DE supplement. It is actually a really good source for fluff and background.

Also "movement" that gives away an Eldar is subjective. I mean its not like their skeleton structure is any different or anything. The only thing off is how fast they move and at the speed of their reflexes. Add in that there are plenty of drugs and weird cybernetics in the 40k universe, some humans might just believe that its one of those results (heck, look at deathcults, who get a invul because of their skills and drugs) I think if an educated human (like a doctor, or someone who has knowledge of the outside world) was to stare at an Eldar for along time, he could figure out something what wrong. But your basic guardsmen will most likely just overlook it

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 18:32

A Calladius assassin could disguise themselves as an Eldar

Presumably the DE have access to polymorphine?

But yes, they would not stoop so low.

....What if it was a choice `infiltrate the monkeigh or be made a Grot??`
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Jehoel
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 19:33

Thereis no doubt that a dark eldar could be modified to look like a monkeigh. But why should they? Whatever info they would hope to gain can be acquired a lot easier. kidnap a human and throw him to a haemy. 5 minuttes later he'll tell if he wears a servitors underwear...

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 21:56

Think of the joy of messing with their heads!

That's always worthy in a DEs eyes.

A lot of the DE fluff is based on myth; Mythical elves are forever playing tricks and deceiving the poor mortals.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 22:29

@astagoRRe wrote:
I can't seem to find anything in the role play books, (mostly the Rogue Trader "Soul Reaver" sourcebook, since it's pretty much the only DE sourcebook thus far)

It says this in Soul Reaver, p. 96:

Quote :
Apparances

Although Eldar and humans look far more similar to each other than either does to any other alien species common to the Koronus Expanse, this does not mean that Eldar merely look like tall, thin humans with pointy ears. Eldar are taller, more slender, and more poised than humans, moving with a fluid, easy grace that is exceptionally difficult for a human to mimic. Their features are more tapered and pointed, and in the case of Dark Eldar, subtly touched by a savage aspect that makes them appear predatory. The Eldar eyes particularly stand out, and can be described as dark, crystalline pools within which an ageless and utterly alien mind dwells. In all, it is quite difficult for an Eldar to pass as a human, or for human to pass as an Eldar, at least up close. At a distance, when robed and hooded, such a deception may be easier, but it is unlikely to fool anyone for long.

I don't doubt that a Haemonculus worth his salt would be able to transform an Eldar into the likeness of a Human right down to the skeletal structure and the eyes, but whether or not the subject would be able to pull his role off is a different matter altogether. Like Khain Mor said, it's not just their outward appearance, it's the way they move, the way they talk, their expressions, etc. Everything in an Eldar's person screams alien. Another rather important thing to consider is that Human culture is as alien to the Eldar as Eldar culture is to Humans, and their mindsets are completely different as well. I think there's some advice for representing this in the Soul Reaver book, something along the lines that the average Dark Eldar would simply be unable to comprehend some of the aspects of Human culture (like brotherhood, duty, etc. in a Guard regiment, if you're having an infiltrator in one).

I guess it's possible for a Dark Eldar to have studied Human culture extensively enough to be able to pass for a human with only a slight sense of queerness about him, but as others have already pointed out, it'd be a big deal for the infiltrator to overcome his ego and there are definitely easier ways to achieve the same end without having to resort to infiltration.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeSun May 19 2013, 01:16

I haven't dug any farther than the codex and some threads about the dark eldar. But one thing I can understand is that they are pretty sick and twisted. How long could he withstand the pleasure of watching a man suffer by mutilation or something of that nature. Which also begs the question, how long COULD he physically do it without becoming ill? As I understand and I apologize for any descrepancies, but I am to understand dark eldar feed on anguish. I don't think a T bone and some mashed potatoes ae going to cut it. Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was also to understand the reason the dark city is located where it is is because Slanesh would seek them out. Also, this would be why thy raid so quickly, as to not be seen by the preverbial eye of mordor? Am I correct in thinking this?

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeFri May 16 2014, 20:47

Also on the topic of eldar movement, their speed and grace are simply too obvious, it would take hardcore drugs or serious fleshcrafting to make it unobvious to the mon keigh
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting   Haemonculi and Fleshcrafting I_icon_minitimeTue May 20 2014, 14:27

Well, I have no idea why nobody else has written this, but are the haemonculi not masters of the minds just like they are of flesh? Many times, the Codex mentions how they twist the behavior and needs of others to fit their own goals. Take grotesques as an example, they are mostly just some commoner who has angered the haemonculus so much he or she decides to make the offender a mindless, overgrown monster zombie that rampages at anything that moves. The are often even "programmed" to obey their master's commands without any resistance. Other larger haemonculus creations are also numbed in a similar way. In [i]Path of the Incubus, I think, it even appears that Cho and Vi, a pain engine and a parasite engine, even had their memories erased before they were finished, and they appeared to think like robots rather than half-biological beings who once lived, ate and breathed.
I therefore consider it irrelevant wether an eldar would agree to this or not.

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