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FeralSlaaneshi
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PostSubject: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 23:06

Hey guys!
I've not played Dark Eldar before and don't really know what to take on my Raiders. Currently I just have the two in a 2000 point list, mostly to attract attention from enemy fire from units like Lelith and anything else that's on foot. However, as it stands I'm not really 100% sure what to do with them.
What do?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 23:50

There are lots of things to do with them depending on the purpose of your list.

Most people use them as mobile tank killing platforms/ways to deliver assault troops to the enemy.

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spellcheck2001
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2013, 07:32

Yes they are there to get your troops and Killy hq's into the enemy ASAP. I have learned through bitter experience ( am a noob to playing the dark kin too) that our troops die very quickly to a stiff breeze. Beware when your transports explode however. They also have a tendency to kill the squishy objects inside. Upgrade with a night shield at the very least to get that 6" protection against some weapons. If you have the points also upgrade to flicker fields for a 5+ save ( these are coming more i handy with all the new tau marker light shenanigans ignoring cover, no jink from those I am afraid)
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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2013, 08:33

yes 2 raider's is just not enough, especially for a 2000pt list

and unless you have a unit you want to sit on an objective in your deployment zone it's best to have everything on foot mounted in a raider/venom.
and don't get upset when your raider's die, expect them to die every game. learn to place them in a position so when they become wrecks it'll be to your advantage
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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2013, 11:19

Keep them out of LOS as much as possible until you are ready to deliver their raiding parites or DL shots. Then just understand they will die.
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2013, 11:36

I'm actually baffled how you were able to acquire 2000 pts of DE without having more than 2 Raiders. It's a puzzle on itself. Wink

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FeralSlaaneshi
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2013, 17:35

@tlronin wrote:
I'm actually baffled how you were able to acquire 2000 pts of DE without having more than 2 Raiders. It's a puzzle on itself. Wink

By being new to Dark Eldar and putting the points that would have otherwise gone to Raiders into having other units. =)
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Kabal_of_the_Red_Shadow
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2013, 20:34

Put wyches in them. At 2k I uwually hav 2 raiders with a squad of 10 wyches and one squad of 9 with a Succubus (or Lelith in your case) then a thid raider with either bloodbrides or splinterborn. If the third has bloodbrides then I take 9 with a succubus and take a second squad of 10 wyches instead of a squad of 9

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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2013, 20:36

Also take night shields. I dont always them bevause the wych raiders are usually close enough to the enemy for the 6in range decrease not to matter but at2k you migjt as well because it means they have a lot more things to shoot you with

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeMon May 13 2013, 20:42

So, Raiders are pretty great at ending up wherever you want them between Enhanced Aethersails and Retrofire Jets if you're feeling risky. Nightshields give you much more room to maneuver as well.

General uses:

1. Get an important medium sized unit to an important location.

2. Let embarked Kabs be twin-linked.

3. Mobile Terrain, i.e. using empty raiders to aggressively impair the movement of other models, trying to block or obstruct line of sight to important models, and moving them in such a way that when they explode they become useful cover.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2013, 08:00

@FeralSlaaneshi wrote:
@tlronin wrote:
I'm actually baffled how you were able to acquire 2000 pts of DE without having more than 2 Raiders. It's a puzzle on itself. Wink

By being new to Dark Eldar and putting the points that would have otherwise gone to Raiders into having other units. =)

Probably. I was just having a bit of fun on your expense, Dark Eldar style. Wink

On a serious note then, I think you know now how important our transports are to get the correct unit on the right place.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2013, 10:38

My advice would be to pick a use for them and equip them specifically for that use, as Kabal of the Red Shadow said, there's no point putting night shields on if you're planning on dropping off a wych unit in charge range, but grisly trophies or torment grenade launchers then start to make sense.

Retrofire jets can be useful if you fancy delivering a gunboat into rapid fire range without it getting shot up, and chain snares can be annoying if you've dropped off your cargo and your opponent is ignoring them, plus it lets them still do some damage if your weapon gets destroyed. Even envenomed blades have their uses (although it's more petulant damage than game-changing).

And yes, in a game of 2000 points, 2 raiders just ain't enough.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2013, 23:17

I've really got to say that Nightshields are good to have on Wych Raiders, if only for being outside rapidfire range or making meltaguns less threatening.

@ OP, I'm guessing your army has a massively packed fast attack section? Or do you just grin and bear the lack of mobility?

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2013, 23:20

@sgb69 wrote:
I've really got to say that Nightshields are good to have on Wych Raiders, if only for being outside rapidfire range or making meltaguns less threatening.

I'm guessing your army has a massively packed fast attack section?

Surely you're not in rapid fire range if you're charging? 6" move, 6" disembark, 7" charge is well outside rapid fire range and outside melta range completely.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeTue May 14 2013, 23:48

Gotta keep in mind that the other guy can move 6" too. So, 18" threat range normally on generic marines. The closer you can safely get, the less likely random chance will bone you out of a charge.

Also, it's entirely likely that other nearby units may complicate the issue.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 06:51

Have to agree with sgb69 the main strength of the night shield is protection from rapid fire, melta and 24" range weapons.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 07:30

All I'll say to that is I've never had a raider shot from under me at the sort of range where night shields would make a difference.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 09:49

@Burning-Eye: No indeed, only situation is if I don't have 1st turn and the NS keeps the Raiders out of range.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 12:35

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
All I'll say to that is I've never had a raider shot from under me at the sort of range where night shields would make a difference.

Interesting. Lots of Space Wolves and Imperial Guard opponents?

I've generally found that ignoring those crazy ranged guns and focusing on the mid range game helps me stay alive. Skirting ALL the threat ranges seems silly. Skirting just a few usually means more risk but more potential reward to me.

Then again, I'm a maneuver warfare nut. Anything that I can do to create more space on the table is golden in my twisted brainmeats.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 12:56

The way I see it night shields are a good way of reducing fire, forcing your opponent to commit more resources, and drawing him out of position.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 14:46

The way I see it is this, if we're talking about dropping off units with the purpose of charging something, the raider needs to start on average 19-21" away to allow a 6" move, 6" disembark and then a fleet charge.

If your raider doesn't have night shields, it can be rapid fired at up to 18" away (6" move, 12" range) or single shot up to 30".

If the raider does have night shields, rapid fire range is 15" (6" move, 9" range) and single shot is 24".

In both of those scenarios, your raider has to start within at least single shot range in order to get a successful charge, but can be outside of rapid fire range. Given that you can place your models precisely as you can measure everything under 6th, there's no reason to end up in rapid fire range.

Regards your last point Mush, I completely agree with you, i just don't think the points are that worthwhile on a raider that's going to be up close and personal, I'd rather take Grisly trophies and/or Torment grenades to help the wyches out in combat and trust to my flickerfields.

@sgb69 - I've never played the Wolves yet, and only a couple of games against Guard (Wych raider lost to a Lascannon first time and a Quad gun the second), I mainly play against Chaos, Tau and Vanilla marines, with less regular games against Eldar and Tyranids.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 15:38

Ive been liking shields + sails on my assault raiders simply because it frees up my deployment options and limits what can target them. Sometimes opponents make mistakes and shoot the only weapons that have sufficient range at something else. They also allow you to do things like put a raider in front of something else for cover but when it comes to weapon range the raider is essentially behind the unit yet providing cover, if ya know what I mean.

Anyway this combo isnt always a replacement for a spare raider but sometimes it is just that.

There is plenty of design philosophy with raiders and IMO catagorizing them by their intended purpose helps determine their general build i.e. upgrades, deployment etc. For example heres 3 I can think of:

-primary assault transport. Delivers your main disruption element and thus pretty essential to the gameplan. This should probably have EAS and NS and/or FF, maybe even trophies but see below.

-backup transport to primary assault unit(s). aka decoy. This should usually be kept bare although EAS is an option to allow optimal deployment along with the primary but definitely not mandatory. Pretty much always kept empty and should be purchased with a shooty unit like warriors since they might not get to use its mobility. Trophies can go here if you run bikes/beasts which encourages your opponent to shoot this to get rid of LD rerolls for those and other units.

-gunboat. Splinter racks are obvious, disi cannon is probably the weapon of choice to compliment anti infantry firepower. Then consider retros for DSing into rapid fire range. (I have not used this build yet)

Any other staples im missing here?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 15:56

I've never used EAS myself, i find the limits to shooting and disembarkation mean that i can't imagine a situation where I'd need to move that much further that going flat out doesn't achieve (plus that makes your jink save 4+).

I'd generally keep the assault transport pretty bare, you can argue you don't need the flickerfield thanks to jink, and either GT or TGL should be useful if it survives after you've disembarked.

I don't use backup transports either, mainly because i don't take much in the way of troops on foot (one big warrior blob occasionally)

Gunboats are great, as you said splinter racks are a must, though I don't think it really matters what gun you give the raider as they don't have to shoot at the same target, and more dark lances for anti tank is usually a good thing. I'd love to give DSing gunboats a try, my only caution over that is worrying about when they'll arrive, you could be looking at not before turn 4 of course, and if you've reserved a couple, that's a big chunk of your firepower not making it onto the board until late in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed May 15 2013, 16:34

Quote :
I've never used EAS myself, i find the limits to shooting and disembarkation mean that i can't imagine a situation where I'd need to move that much further that going flat out doesn't achieve (plus that makes your jink save 4+).
The only time ive really had the limitations come into play is when it prevented me from throwing a grenade, and maybe the odd liquifier. Maybe its how I use them idk.
I basically count the sails as night shields-lite in that I can deploy further back/away from the enemy and still threaten similar range. Then soon as possible I move 12" + 2d6" + flat out with the expectation that my raider will be destroyed giving the unit cover to survive until the following turn when they assault.
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PostSubject: Re: Raider troubles   Raider troubles I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 05 2013, 15:04

I used nightshields for the first time last week and those precious 6" kept my boats out of trouble - only lost one not all of them.. Some didn't have to walk home Wink
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