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 Malys and reserves

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Tiri Rana
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Tiri Rana

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PostSubject: Malys and reserves   Malys and reserves I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 12:28

Malys' "Precognisant" special rule allows D3 units to be redeployed, including putting them in reserve, after both sides deployed at the start of the game.
Page 94 in the BRB tells us that a player may choose not to deploy one ore more units and instead leave them in reserves. So while reserves are declared while deploying, units in reserves are not actualy deployed.

So atleast in my opinion Malys may redeploy already deployed units or put them into reserves, but by RAW she may not deploy previously undeployed units from reserves.

Did I get something wrong or did I overlook something?
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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: Malys and reserves   Malys and reserves I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 15:45

I think you've got it.
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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: Malys and reserves   Malys and reserves I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 22 2011, 17:08

I see it a different way (go figure).

I believe it allows you to bring "deploy" forces previously held in reserve (declared oddly enough during your deployment).

During your deployment you,

1. Place units on the board.
2. Declare units being held in reserve (outflank, deepstrike, or just moving on normally).
3. Place infiltrators and make scout moves (after both players have completed steps 1 and 2).

At this point you and your opponent are considerd to have deployed their forces and the game is ready to begin. Lady Malys allows you to now "redeploy" D3 units meaning you can take the selected units and go through steps 1-3 again.

Meaning you could take a.....

unit previously placed on the board above #1 and reposition them elsewhere on the board.
unit previously placed on the board under #1 and move them into reserve (DS, OF, or normal).
unit previously deployed as a reserve #2 and place them on the board.
unit previously deployed as a reserve #2 outflanking to a reserve not outflanking.
unit previously deployed as a reserve #2 deepstriking to reserve not deepstriking.
unit previously deployed as a reserve #2 normal to a reserve outflanking or deepstriking.
unit previously deployed as an infiltrator #3 and reposition them elsewhere.
unit previously deployed as an infiltrator #3 and move them into reserve (outflanking or not).

You could also argue that scout moves happen before or after the "redeploy" takes place. I feel its after initial scout moves (I mean Lady Malys knows all), and if you happen to move a unit with the scout special rule you can choose to make their scout move after redeployment.


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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Malys and reserves   Malys and reserves I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 23 2011, 04:38

First:
Units taken to reserves are not deployed BRB p.94 says it word-for-word. The prefix 're-' means again or anew. How can something that was never deployed be deployed again?
Second:
The 'Precognisant' special rule specificly allows to put units into reserves, but it doesn't allow to take them out off reserves. Why would this be, if it was included in redeploying?

The DE_FAQ says Malys' special rule is used directly before any roll to seize initiative and seizeing initiative is rolled just before the player that should go first begins his first turn. So yes you're right, it is used after scout moves, wich are made after deploying infiltrators. But the scout move is not part of deploying the unit, but the use of a special rule, and it is made before Malys' special rule. So in my opinion it should not be allowed to make scout moves again, since they were already made. Additionaly if you would make scout moves again it would be possible to use Malys' special rule again, since you may use it after making scout moves.
No recursion please.

I think the problem is the difference between deploying a unit and deploying your army. Deploying your army or 'Deploy Forces' (p94) is a part of preparing a game and consists of several actions. Deploying a unit is the actual act of putting a unit on the table.

So while some actions are made while 'Deploy Forces' they are not part of deploying a unit.
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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: Malys and reserves   Malys and reserves I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 23 2011, 22:16

@Tiri Rana wrote:
The 'Precognisant' special rule specificly allows to put units into reserves, but it doesn't allow to take them out off reserves. Why would this be, if it was included in redeploying?

Because in your words that would be "un-deploying" a unit, not the act of taking a unit and "deploying" it somewhere on the board regardless of its status (reserve or not, infiltrated or not, etc.) prior to the use of her special rule. Or maybe the reference was meant to address allowing units to be placed in reserve regardless of the scenerio; since without the statement you couln't place a unit into reserves regardless of how you define redeployment in a scenrio that doesn't allow reserves.


You nor I will solve the issue, this is not the first post or forum to ask the question nor will it be the last. Some will see the rule as permissive and choose to allow any unit in a players list to be "redeployed" while others will choose to look at the rules as restrictive and not. Neither way is earth shattering.

Some have even challenged that since her rule doesn't state it that you could infact choose to move redeployed units closer than maybe originally allowed since you are not the first or second person to deploy (i.e. third) in those scerioes that state the second person to deploy must do so X" away from the first' models. Example, you deploy first (first deployer) you move your models anywhere in your deployment zone. Now your opponent deploys but must stay 12" away per the scenerio as the second deployer. You then use Malys special rule and redeploy a unit, do you abide by the rules you originally deployed under i.e. without restriction or do you now follow the rules for the second deployer having to now remain 12" away or are you something all togther different?. Since it doesn't say either way, people will argue and play it accordingly.

It is of my opinion that the RAI were to allow a player to consider all of their forces and choose to either redeploy (i.e. making the choice to deploy a unit previously slated for reserves) or even per her rules "undeploy" a unit into reserves. Even allowing me the option of saying they will now do so via deepstrike or outflank which in fact are additional special rules (pg94. must declare to his opponent, during army deployment) which Malys rules do not explicitly state can be done, i.e. only put them in regular reserve where they come in from my board edge or even a WWP.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Malys and reserves   Malys and reserves I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 22:52

Outflank is not a special rule on it's own, it's part of the mission special rule 'Reserves'. So if you put a unit into reserves you may declare it outflanks, if it qualifies as described in the reserves mission special rule. Same with Deepstrike. If you use reserves you may declare this rule will be used for any reserved unit that qualifies and additionally the Deepstrike mission special rule allows a unit to be placed in reserves even if the Reserve mission special rule is not used.
So as Malys allows a unit to be placed in reserves, the Reserves mission special rule allows the unit to Outflank or Deepstrike.

But as a rule may only contradict or outrule another rule, if it explicitly says so, Malys may only put units into reserves, if the mission and/or units allow her to do so.

And why should Malys make you third deployer? Does it say so anywhere?
It just says you may 'redeploy*', thus you may deploy a unit, that was deployed before, again and of course you have to abide by all the rules you had to when it was deployed at first.

*there are two definitions of redeploy.
1st: reposition
2nd: deploy again (should be re-deploy, but that's a common error)
Either one doesn't allow to deploy something that wasn't deployed before.
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SinisterPlank
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PostSubject: Re: Malys and reserves   Malys and reserves I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 25 2011, 00:15

My initial thought here would be, in order for something to be "redeployed" it'll need to have been deployed in the first place. Reserves are not deployed. This, for me, is strenghtened by the fact that the rule clearly writes out that you're also allowed to place said units in reserve.

So, my answer, you can use this rule to move d3 units from one point to another on the table, or place said units into reserve. You can't choose to move a unit from reserves onto the table.

That being said, it's possible GW intended something different, and might FAQ it, but for the moment, I doubt that very much.
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