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Tengu
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PostSubject: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 21:12

Some discourse for a fic on our favourite Dark City losers.

Diet. (Maybe as a slave I shouldn't be asking that...)

What is the function of their tattoos? (Or is it scarification's?) My theory is they are sigils of demonic warding. They must meet some pretty nasty things in the Webway

(what would happen with a resurrected mandrake, aside they are going to end up owing the tattoo parlour a fortune...)

Do they spend most of their lives in the Webway? Can they attack travellers? Do they get onto Craftworlds that way? (But craftworrlds are well lit.)

How do you keep them out? They are the perfect perpetrator of locked room mysteries.

Technology and `drakes, do they use it? if not, why not? (my theory is a lot cant be used in the webway, or its damaged by the cold)

This may be why they wear skins...cold would wreck most normal material longterm...But who would dare to betray a `drake? (Aside from us, who do not employ them)
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 22:04

Quote :
What is the function of their tattoos? (Or is it scarification's?) My theory is they are sigils of demonic warding. They must meet some pretty nasty things in the Webway
That would make sense. A lot of people think that the Mandrakes are actually the offspring that lay with Eldar many years ago. I, personally, don't like that theory, so runes of Daemonic warding sounds good to me!

I have always thought that they might be part of some sort of summoning ritual. Even though Mandrakes reside in Aelindrach I imagine that certain Mandrakes can be brought in front of somebody if runes matching those upon a particular Mandrake are carved upon a corpse. Kind of like how the Ordo Malleus has the Grimoir of True Names to have power over Daemons; I don't think that this would grant power over the Mandrake, though, only give a quick chanel of communication.
I think a Mandrake would be a bit annoyed if you summoned him just for a chat, though. Razz
Quote :

Do they spend most of their lives in the Webway? Can they attack travellers? Do they get onto Craftworlds that way? (But craftworrlds are well lit.)
Mandrakes reside in a shadow real. of Commorragh known as Aelindrach. Seeing as we do not know of the origin of the Mandrakes we cannot say that they can be made via reproduction. If they cannot then all of the Mandrakes will have come into existance at a certain point (probably around the Fall) meaning that they probably will have spent most of their lives in the webway.
I guess that if they were hired to, and if they could find shadows, they could get onto a Craftworld.

Quote :
How do you keep them out? They are the perfect perpetrator of locked room mysteries.
I don't think you can keep them out. That's the scary part! You could have lights everywhere but a speck of shadow would always remain. It's innevitable, like your death at their hands... claws?

I suppose if they were Daemons then wards similar to those used by Inquisitors could help. I don't think that they are Daemons, though.

Quote :
Technology and `drakes, do they use it? if not, why not? (my theory is a lot cant be used in the webway, or its damaged by the cold)
I'm not too sure on this one. I think that their absence of technology is down to the fact that what they do alreadys is effective enough. Why use a Splinter weapon when you can freeze somebody's soul?

Quote :
This may be why they wear skins...cold would wreck most normal material longterm...But who would dare to betray a `drake? (Aside from us, who do not employ them)
I think the skin hakama that they wear is just for their modesty on behalf of GW. Also, it looks cool! If they crawl from shadows and murder people I don't think the'd care much about being nude.

I hope that this helps. Smile

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Erebus
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 01:21

@Cavash wrote:

Quote :
This may be why they wear skins...cold would wreck most normal material longterm...But who would dare to betray a `drake? (Aside from us, who do not employ them)
I think the skin hakama that they wear is just for their modesty on behalf of GW. Also, it looks cool! If they crawl from shadows and murder people I don't think the'd care much about being nude.
To quote the codex:

"The Mandrakes usually ask for slaves as payment, but sometimes they will ask for something far more esoteric, such as a heartbeat, a true name, or a voice. Such requests are rarely denied, for Mandrakes go to war clad in the patchwork skins of those that have betrayed them."

So, from a fluff-perspective, the skin "hakama" is both a warning to their (potential) employers and a form of psychological warfare. You know, because materialising from your prey's shadow isn't scary enough.

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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 13:34

@Tengu wrote:
How do you keep them out? They are the perfect perpetrator of locked room mysteries.

I'm always afraid of Mandrakes hiding under my bed pale
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Tengu
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 19:33

They wouldn't get under mine, too many axes, (safe place to put them) and dust

...Maybe they might like that?

I always visualise them as starting out naked, then skinning their kill and wrapping it around them, or over their shoulders. The Heracles look is always in.

As for reproduction, the lore on the Mandragora plant is horrific enough. (And GW choose their names with care) I rather suspect `Drakes are mercifully slow of reproduction....
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Khain mor
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeFri May 10 2013, 23:58

@Cavash wrote:
A lot of people think that the Mandrakes are actually the offspring that lay with Eldar many years ago. I, personally, don't like that theory, so runes of Daemonic warding sounds good to me!

fFrst one sounds very unlikely and first time I hear it, and i'm a fluff nerd, spend a lot of time on fluff reading and talking about it.
Second, deamons? Possible, but also unlikely and i would hate it if it as a deamon thing again.

One now why is the first one completely impossible?
Mandrakes, like the power from pain, originate from the birth of Slaanesh. There quite enough fluff on pre dark eldar living within the webway. There was no power form pain before slaanesh. Mandrakes clearly have a big influence from that power.

Now the runes and the flames are clearly linked, same goes for the pwoer from pain who allows them to shoot fire.

I do agree that the runes are invovled in some kind of ritual, to protect, to awaken, there's no way to know. i'm more inclined to think the second. It's just my theory, but I think the mandrakes are some kind of a ascended state of the power from pain. The flames are a secondary power, as well as travelling through shadows and having a black skin. The runes awaken this new state, don't really protect, they transport the individual. Again just a theory, mandrakes may still be awakened in Commoragh, normal Dark Eldar, perhalps willingly are turned into mandrakes.
Some wyches and kabalites who can't endure the pain anymore chose to go to the heamonculi for help, some however may chose even another more secret path: the mandrake transformation.

Heamonculi seemed to be linked to mandrakes however. They are kind of the scientists of Commoragh, the weapons mandrakes use are similar to those used by Covens. Khera has 2 arms, basic power from pain from the start. Since they do know about science, they may know a lot about old eldar runes. It may be a cult, but it's unlikely, heamonculus are old, wise and have thousands of years of experience.

Too many reasons why I don't think mandrakes are deamons, but something different, also coming from another dimension.
that dimension is none other than the webway itself in fact. Remember the power from pain originates from the webway, since it's linked to mandrakes, I believes mandrakes are created within the webway. The shadaw travelling doesn't realy surprise when you know the webway is used to travel between spaces. These guys are even better at using the weway than other eldar. It's weird, but they are sitll eldar. Deamons can't stay in this reality forever, these guys as far as we know can without any problem.
If they were deamons GW would simply spill it out, no denying they were. Khymera, it's clear they are deamons, no denying there.
Deamons also have a tendancy to open up portals for their brothers to come join the party. Mandrakes don't do such things. Deamons are always deeply connected to psykers, mandrake fluff has nothing on this either, the word psyker does never come to mind.

Quote :
As for reproduction, the lore on the Mandragora plant is horrific enough.

It's a good point, mandrakes are killed, they can also be ressurected, but some of them may still die. Nothing says they are getting extinct though, meaning more mandrakes are still created. It may be reproductuion between themselves but like I previously said, may just be dark eldar turned with a ritual. The runes are carved into their skin, the power from pain is amplified, their body is changed and a mandrake is finally created.


On the skin hakama, I think it's more of a consequence rather than a choice to scare their enemies even more.
They are very dependant of the power from pain, more than more dark eldar perhaps, to get that power you need to kill.
A dumb theory, but what if their clothes are burned very often, that's why they don't even bother getting some real armor. They do spill out some very dangerous flames. Their bodies are obviously protected agains the flames, but whatever they wear isn't.

This skin hakama is giving me a great idea for models: what if I made my next mandrakes without this cloth piece, just naked mandrakes : /.

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Erebus
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSat May 11 2013, 00:05

@Khain mor wrote:

fFrst one sounds very unlikely and first time I hear it, and i'm a fluff nerd, spend a lot of time on fluff reading and talking about it.
Can't be that much of a fluff nerd since it's in the codex:

"The origins of the Mandrakes are shrouded. Some claim the Mandrakes descend from Eldar who engaged in heinous union with unholy entities when their empire was at its most decadent."

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSat May 11 2013, 00:25

I will put my hands over my face; with fingers slightly apart for peeking....

`Pants are an illusion, and so is death.`

(But of course, a mandrake would tell us he/she is `not` naked, they have their markings. -another reason to go in the buff.)

Is balefire like fire? I thought it was cold.

(but of course, this is equally destructive to kit.)

Being transformed to a `drake is pretty grim, and I suspect an individual would have to fight for status in Aerlindrah; I doubt they like upstarts...that or become a slave...But they would need to learn how to shadow travel and balefire summons...That and scratch and bite. Being a `Drake is a whole new thing.

-------

Erubus, that `half demon` stuff, you are right, its biologically unlikely (else we would see a whole lot more of them in the Slanneshi department)

I suspect the `Drakes like the rumour and keep it alive.
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSat May 11 2013, 11:20

Thank you, Erebus. I was about to point thatout and then realised that you had already. It was thatunion that he quoted that I was refering to. I am quite a fluff nerd myself, Khain. Smile

Quote :
Is balefire like fire? I thought it was cold.
I would say that it is cold. Everything about those dark skinned night stalkers is cold. Also,the codex says "Mandrakes are capable of channeling these stolen energies, shaping blasts of cold fire..." So it's safe to assume that the flames are cold.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 09:57

"See our arena champion go three rounds with a baby mandrake, armed with nothing but an agoniser, a chair and a Mothercare catalogue!"
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 10:01

I thought the "tattoos" were cracked skin.
Something Deamony trying to get out?

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 10:45

Their inky skin writhes with forbidden runes...

Quote from the codex

I would say they are more like scarifications than tattoos though.
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 12:04

Or they are something completely different that we can't understand being... well... not Mandrakes. Razz

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Khain mor
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 07:29

@Erebus wrote:
@Khain mor wrote:

fFrst one sounds very unlikely and first time I hear it, and i'm a fluff nerd, spend a lot of time on fluff reading and talking about it.
Can't be that much of a fluff nerd since it's in the codex:

"The origins of the Mandrakes are shrouded. Some claim the Mandrakes descend from Eldar who engaged in heinous union with unholy entities when their empire was at its most decadent."

Is english you main language? In my case it isn't, however I'm smart enough to understand this piece of the codex, which of course I knew.

What you see is : the Mandrakes descend from Eldar who engaged in heinous union with unholy entities when their empire was at its most decadent. You completely ignore the first two words, which change everything. The "some claim" make the statement completely worthless.
I back up the worthless with other fluff, like I said, the power from pain only started from Slaanesh was born. In theory mandrakes could exist before that, however it's certain they wouldn't have the flaming hand, not the flashy bright runes, may have the runes but not the light, the runes and the flames and the power from pain are clearly all connected.
There's no fluff mentioning mandrakes before the Fall, same goes for the power from pain.


Quote :

I would say that it is cold. Everything about those dark skinned night stalkers is cold. Also,the codex says "Mandrakes are capable of channeling these stolen energies, shaping blasts of cold fire..." So it's safe to assume that the flames are cold.
it's a common misconception that fire is supposed to be hot. Chemistry proves it. Take people getting burned by ice in a cold region. Fire is more an oxidation reaction, the flames aren't reallly the fire itself, it's rather the reaction they create that is considered the real fire. Why an I saying this? Because of the people being burned byt the Ice, no flames there.

Under the right circumstance I'm sure you can create cold flames, they wouldn't be real flames like we know, but they would look similar. The flames are just a chemical interaction and by-product.




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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 14:44

@Khain mor wrote:

You completely ignore the first two words, which change everything. The "some claim" make the statement completely worthless.
No, I didn't. Reread what Cavash wrote originally. Here, I'll quote it for ease:

@Cavash wrote:
A lot of people think that the Mandrakes are actually the offspring that lay with Eldar many years ago.
(emphasis mine)

Operative word there: think. The origins of Mandrakes is speculation, both in fluff and reality. And that's the point. Some in-universe people believe Mandrakes are the offspring of Eldar and unholy entities (read: deamons), and some real life people subscribe to that theory.

If the ""some claim" makes the statement completely worthless", then by that token, every theory on their origin is worthless. And by extension, this discussion would be too.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 18:26

Which is interesting in itself.

Surely an advanced race like the Eldar would have accurate records on their origins?
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 19:01

@Tengu wrote:
Which is interesting in itself.

Surely an advanced race like the Eldar would have accurate records on their origins?

After the fall, probably not as much as they used to.
I am also quite sure a place like Comorragh has very little records or archives.
Hmm... I think we should plan a raid on The Black Library? Surely the harlies know a lot?
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior...   Mandrakes, their Behavior and Misbehavior... I_icon_minitimeSat May 18 2013, 19:13

Yes, they would.

And that proves one thing

Mandrakes are `not` Chaos Eldar; otherwise the Harlies would have wiped them out ages ago.
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