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 Trueborn with Darklances

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miek
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PostSubject: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 07:10

So (fairly competitively speaking) how do people feel about 5 Trueborn x2 dark-lances in Venom. The movement is a big bust, but a dark-lance "weapon platform" that can't be stunned, and has up to 5 wounds AFTER being blown up doesn't seem like something to scoff at.

It obviously doesn't have the same amount of shots as a x3 or x4 blaster build in the slot, but I feel like it really has it's own - and may force them to have to come forward a bit more if they want to take it out. I'm thinking about it as an alternative to blaster squads, not only for the ease of modeling but tactically as well Wink

Has anyone given them a try?
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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 09:01

Its a decent loadout. I wont play it, because I just dont feel I need more DL in my team, rather go ro blaster loadout.

But I have tried so called "sniper" group like this before. Drop them of in tarrain and let them snipe away. Sure works fine.

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Hashmal
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 15:21

I don't like it, personally. It's not bad, as putting two DLs in a 5 man squad is definitely a solid choice. However, you lose a lot by sacrificing that mobility. DLs are not renowned for their exceptional range - 36" is easy to get away from over the course of a turn or two. If you're stuck moving, you lose out on an entire turn of AT fire. That sucks.

Also, what do you mean they can't be stunned? As long as they're in that Venom, I guarantee you that they can be suppressed.

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 15:21

Personally I am undecided.

I can see the mindset of wanting to have the snipers to shoot at whatever you want.

What I have a hard time getting past is having 5 trueborn to get 2 dark lance shots. And if you happen to deploy badly, you could spend most of the game sitting around doing nothing.

I run the blasterborn right now. I like the versatility of them.

I think the jury is going to be out on this one for a long time, since to me most of it seems like it is a matter of play style then actual tactical advantage.

I mean really, 2 heavy lance shots at 36inches compared to 3 or 4 assault lance shots at 18 inches.

I don't really see one as clearly better than the other, just different.

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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 15:33

3x trueborn with 2x dark lances is better.

As already discussed here.
http://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t239-non-blaster-trueborn-thoughts
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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 15:45

@miek wrote:
So (fairly competitively speaking) how do people feel about 5 Trueborn x2 dark-lances in Venom. The movement is a big bust, but a dark-lance "weapon platform" that can't be stunned, and has up to 5 wounds AFTER being blown up doesn't seem like something to scoff at.

It obviously doesn't have the same amount of shots as a x3 or x4 blaster build in the slot, but I feel like it really has it's own - and may force them to have to come forward a bit more if they want to take it out. I'm thinking about it as an alternative to blaster squads, not only for the ease of modeling but tactically as well Wink

Has anyone given them a try?

Hmm just a few things I don't understand so clarification migh be helpful....

1. Why 5 trueborn and not just 3? If you are just planning on sitting back in a vehicle firing with DLs why bring extra cheerleaders? - Suggestion drop it down to 3 (just saved you 24pts)

2. Why take a venom when you can take a raider for an added DL if your plan is to sit and fire from the vehicle? Adding a Flickerfield and its a net increase of 5 points but with the points saved from #1 you're still net positive on points. Maybe even add a Nightshield to help avoid incoming fire.

3. You can't avoid being stunned, passengers on a shaken or stunned vehicle results can't fire either.

4. Ok now that you have a non-moving 3 DL platform for the mere cost of 146 - 166 pts (NS,FF) you ask yourself why not save 40 to 60 points and just buy a Ravager that can put out the same amount of DL shots, has a better AV, and can shoot all 3 DL while moving?

I guess the only plus with the other option is you have a layer of ablative armor for your TB (i.e. they blow up the transport then have to kill the TB who get out). Not sure if it the lack of mobility is worth it TBH.

I get what you're trying and its definately outside the box but in this case I just don't see it performing well.

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Last edited by Fletch on Tue Jun 21 2011, 15:51; edited 1 time in total
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 15:51

/\
1) Totally agree.
2) Duality.
3) Yep.
4) Don't apply.


Still, IMHO this is sub optimal unless You go with Duke Venom Drop.

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 15:52

you take 5 trueborn so you don't take morale checks for losing 24%. You have to kill 2.

Truelances ( yeah, I went there) would I assume be in addition to ravagers.

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Fletch
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 15:59

@GAR wrote:
you take 5 trueborn so you don't take morale checks for losing 24%. You have to kill 2.

Truelances ( yeah, I went there) would I assume be in addition to ravagers.


Got it.

But you take shooting moral checks on unmodified LD 9 and if that unit draws any substantial attention its going away regardless of 3 or 5 models. Best bet saving the points IMO.
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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 16:05

@Fletch wrote:
@GAR wrote:
you take 5 trueborn so you don't take morale checks for losing 24%. You have to kill 2.

Truelances ( yeah, I went there) would I assume be in addition to ravagers.


Got it.

But you take shooting moral checks on unmodified LD 9 and if that unit draws any substantial attention its going away regardless of 3 or 5 models. Best bet saving the points IMO.

No argument from me, but I was explaining why you would take 5 instead of 3.

My preference would be to take 3 and send a venom to go running around.

I plan to try them out later in the summer. I have a tourney coming up in 2 weeks and I am still going like mad to get my Black Halo done and now is not the time to change around my trueborn configuration.

Honestly if I wanted more darklances, I would take raiders and run around with them instead of truelances.

A naked raider is 60 points.

a 3 man unit of truelances is 86 points.

To me they just aren't as efficient. but others disagree.

heck I like the Succubus and I have gotten a whole lot of grief over that locally, but that is off topic. Smile

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Venkh
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 18:36

I think they can work but they arent really an efficient choice. They are a small, expensive, squad that cant move and shoot.

Turn 1 you arent shooting because you have to move.

If you find yourself without a target you have to move so you arent shooting

If you look like getting assaulted you arent shooting because you have to reposition.

There are far better ways to get anti vehicle capablity than this. So personally i wouldnt bother outside of some sort of themed list

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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 22:34

They actually work really well if you can position them where they can sit in cover and still have good firing lanes. You can still take a transport, be it a venom or raider and deploy it separately to use as mobile cover for your other units.

on a couple of the things mentioned above,
1) I wouldn't deploy them in any transport. You end up handicapping the squad if you move, or hancicapping the transport since it can move and shoot, and should move and shoot. Rule of thumb, never, ever leave transports sitting still, even if you move them 1", move them.
2) "If" you take a sniper squad, keep it cheap and make sure it's in cover and do not plan on moving them period, even if they are about to get assaulted. You know they'll die in cc, so shoot the squad that's about to assault them, then move everything else away from them, essentially making them isolated bait. Once they lose combat, concentrate fire and kill off the squad that killed your sniper squad.

The sniper squad was a very good tactic used in the old codex and only had 1 dark lance per squad. They nixed that when they made warriors require 10 models to carry a Dark Lance rather than 5.
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 23:14

I just can't see the point of the D/L unit in a venom.

With the blasters you have much more flexibility. With the venoms movement and disembarking they only have 3" more range than the blasters in the venom. If the target moves out of LoS or range then they have to miss at least a turn of shooting just to get back in position possibly. The blasters are much more manouverable, the lance unit just can't match this.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn with Darklances   Trueborn with Darklances I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 23:16

@GAR wrote:
.
A naked raider is 60 points.

a 3 man unit of truelances is 86 points.

To me they just aren't as efficient. but others disagree.

heck I like the Succubus and I have gotten a whole lot of grief over that locally, but that is off topic. Smile

I don't know why You think that 2 immobile DL for 86 points (with 3 wounds and 5+ save/4+ cover) are worse than 1 mobile DL for 60 (note that You pay most points for beeing fast and 10 transport cap, not shots). Still, I would always give them Venom.


But hey, I run twin Warpheads (You know, those Orks HQ that literally suck butt, with exception to times when it blow Land Raiders on turn 1)

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