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 Jinx save and barrage weapons

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PostSubject: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 12:12

I don't know if anyone could point me to the answer... I seem to be unable to find it in the rulebook and no one at my gaming club knows either,

Against barrage weapon, cover saves are determined from the center of the blast marker. So if our skimmer are not under the center of the blast, we get a jinx save (assuming it moved) But what about a skimmer right under the center of the blast?

It's a bit confusing since the skimmer gets his cover save from his speed, not from some LOS piece of terrain.

Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 13:24

you will get the jink cover save unless the weapon ignores cover.
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 15:16

Area terrain and night fighting also allows cover saves against barrage

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 13:39

Well... Night fight is not cancelled by barrage weapon, but there's no case where it will actually give a cover save against a barrage weapon shot.

As the center of the blast template is considered to be the firer's position (see the barrage rule), and the large blast template is 2.5" diameter, it is impossible to be hit by the template (=under the template) and be more than 12" away from it's center (minimal distance from the firer needed to get a bonus to cover save by NF).

But yeah, jink and area terrain works against barrage weapon (unless the weapon has the ignore cover rule of course).
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 14:11

@RabbitMaster wrote:
As the center of the blast template is considered to be the firer's position (see the barrage rule), and the large blast template is 2.5" diameter, it is impossible to be hit by the template (=under the template) and be more than 12" away from it's center (minimal distance from the firer needed to get a bonus to cover save by NF).

This is incorrect. The barrage rules say you calculate the cover save from the position of the template. But the target unit aren't being given a cover save by night fighting, they're being given special rules, based on the distance between the unit firing and it's target, and those in turn bestow the cover save. The position of the template can do nothing to negate special rules.

Hope that helps. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 14:46

Quote :
The barrage rules say you calculate the cover save from the position of the template.
This is the point. The rule tells us to use the position of the template (instead of the firing unit position) when calculating cover saves. And the template is never 12" away from the targeted unit.

So when calculating the cover save, the target unit is no longer 12" away because we use the template position and not the firing unit position. And if it's not 12" away, it does not have stealth/shrouded (so no bonus to cover save).
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 14:57

@RabbitMaster wrote:
This is the point. The rule tells us to use the position of the template (instead of the firing unit position) when calculating cover saves.

But stealth is what is giving you the cover save. Not night fight. Night fight is a separate rule that has nothing to do with "working out cover saves", it uses distance from the firing unit to determine what special rules a unit has. Barrage weapons don't ignore stealth or shrouded do they?

@RabbitMaster wrote:
And the template is never 12" away from the targeted unit.

You don't measure range from the template though do you? Otherwise barrage weapons would have infinite range, because wherever you put the template, the range is 0". Which of course means that if you have a minimum range, you can't actually fire, since it's impossible to place the template 12" away from itself.

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Last edited by Mushkilla on Mon May 06 2013, 19:40; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 15:23

Quote :
You don't measure range from the template though do you? Otherwise barrage weapons would have infinite range, because wherever you put the template, the range is 0".
When checking for range (or whatever), no, but when checking for cover save / allocating wounds, yes.

Of course the barrage rule don't say that we measure everything, and anytime, from the blast template (and you pointed out some problems it might cause if it was the case). But it does tell us to use the template position for cover / wound allocation purposes.

So when i pick up my target (for example), I measure range from the manticore or whatever model with the barrage weapon. There is no infinite range problem. However when I check for cover / wound allocation (and only on those 2 circumstances), then the barrage rule tells us to use the template position (see below).

Quote :
But stealth is what is giving you the cover save. Not night fight. Night fight is a separate rule that has nothing to do with "working out cover saves", it uses distance from the firing unit to determine what special rules a unit has. Barrage weapons don't ignore stealth or shrouded do they?
I agree 100% with that. NF can give stealth/shrouded, and this is those last 2 rules that confers cover saves (or bonus to), not NF itself.

But NF gives you stealth/shrouded depending on the distance between the firer and the target. And barrage weapon rule says that, when checking for cover save and allocating wounds, we do have to use the template position instead of the firer position. So at this particular point in the process, the application of the barrage rule artificially change the distance between firer and target, and thus have an impact on NF.


Quote :
Which of course means that if you have a minimum range, you can't actually fire, since it's impossible to place the template 12" away from itself.
Well... as we can fire within minimum range (p34, first sentence of the first item), it wouldn't be a problem Very Happy It would just force us to always make indirect fire (hopefully it's not the case !)
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 16:02

@RabbitMaster wrote:
I agree 100% with that. NF can give stealth/shrouded, and this is those last 2 rules that confers cover saves (or bonus to), not NF itself. But NF gives you stealth/shrouded depending on the distance between the firer and the target. And barrage weapon rule says that, when checking for cover save and allocating wounds, we do have to use the template position instead of the firer position. So at this particular point in the process, the application of the barrage rule artificially change the distance between firer and target, and thus have an impact on NF.

Emphasise mine. Checking for night fight is not checking for cover or allocating wounds. It's simply checking for night fight. Hence the barrage weapons rules have no bearing on the nightfight rules. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 19:34

The barrage rules make no mention of range, only direction. You calculate cover saves as if the shot originated from the centre of the blast marker. Range is irrelevant.

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 20:32

It's not only a matter of direction, measuring range is mandatory for wound allocation purposes (as we allocate closest to farthest). So both line of sight & range are relevant with the barrage rule.

And if you consider that the shot came from the template 1" from here, you can't say he's in fact coming from 17" away (well, i found this really strange).

However, I do see the point of Mushkilla. The real problem is, when do we check for night fight ? Is it only when picking a target, or whenever you need to know if the target has stealth/shrouded ?

I have to check my english rulebook (as my french one is not always well translated). In the meantime, I've asked the question at a friend in the ETC rulecouncil.

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 22:03

You decide if the target benefits from night fight before you fire. Night Fighting as per p124;

basic rulebook wrote:
The shooting unit cannot pick a target that is more than 36 inches away, such units are completely hidden in darkness. Unit between 24" and 36" are treated as having the shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" are treated as having the stealth special rule.

So as Mush has said, these are special rules that confer a cover save-not a cover save in and of themselves. If the squad being fired upon was standing in ruins at 35 inches from the barrage weapon firing unit they would only benefit from the protection of the darkness-not the 4+ save granted from the ruins. It is a little abstract I know but represents the difficulty of hitting a target in the dark from long range as opposed to a target hiding behind rocks, buildings or debris.

Barrage weapons lob shells high into the air and land on top of the target unit, think present day artillery, so they calculate cover saves from the centre of the template and ignore direction and intervening cover like trees, buildings, other units and so on. In fact most barrage weapons can fire indirectly-meaning no line of sight to the target-which really can confuse things regarding night fighting.

I see what you are trying to say Rabbitmaster; but by your interpretation of the rule it seems to me you are saying ( at least as far as night fighting and stealth/shrouded are concerned) that barrage weapons ignore cover-they do not. If they ignored cover they would have the Ignores Cover special rule (and some of them do!)


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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 22:32

@RabbitMaster wrote:
It's not only a matter of direction, measuring range is mandatory for wound allocation purposes (as we allocate closest to farthest)

The wound allocation rules on page 15 make no mention of range. I think you are getting confused between the range of an attack and the distance of the closest model for wound allocation. They are not the same thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 08:25

Guys,

I've reread the rules about Barrage on page 34. Reread Stealth and Shrouded on pages 41 and 42. Plus the Night Fighting rules on 124.

I agree that the Stealth and Shrouded special rules can be conferred as per the Night Fighting rules. The Barrage special rules are irrelevant. The Barrage special rules ARE relevant though as to exactly what cover save the unit actually gets. If the unit is in area terrain it's in luck and it can improve it's 5+ coversave by 1 or 2. If the unit was behind a ruine (so not area terrain) it does not benefit from being behind cover (as per the Barrage special rules) and we treat the unit as being out in the open (which means at best a 5+ coversave).

Interesting discussion, never read the barrage rules in such detail. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 12:19

The wound allocation rules on page 15 make no mention of range. I think you are getting confused between the range of an attack and the distance of the closest model for wound allocation. They are not the same thing.
Yeah, I misused the word "range" when I was meaning "distance" (see below).

Quote :
I see what you are trying to say Rabbitmaster; but by your interpretation of the rule it seems to me you are saying ( at least as far as night fighting and stealth/shrouded are concerned) that barrage weapons ignore cover-they do not. If they ignored cover they would have the Ignores Cover special rule (and some of them do!)
Explaining myself in english is harder than in french for me Very Happy But no, I don't pretend that barrage weapons ignore cover. If you're in a forest (for example) you have the corresponding cover save barrage weapon or not (well, unless the weapon does have the ignore cover rule of course).

What I'm trying to say is : Night fight gives you stealth/shrouded depending on the distance between the firing unit and the target. So if this distance change (whatever the reason), the effect of NF change.

And typically, the barrage rule does change this distance. Because when (and only when) checking for cover or allocating wound, the rule force us to consider that the shot is coming from the template and not the firing unit. At this particular moment, a shot fired 27" from here is in reality considered coming from a couple inches away only. So when we allocate & check for cover save, you don't have the stealth/shrouded rules confered by NF because you're not far enough from the origin of the shot.

To put it in simple example :
Alice target Bob with her mortar (barrage weapon) during the night. Bob is 13" away and in an endless plain with no cover. We check for range, line of sight, etc... everything's good.
The shot deviates only 1", so Bob is hit and Alice successfully wound him.
When I'll be checking for a cover save I will ask myself :
- Ok the barrage rule tells me to consider the shot comes from 1" on the left of Bob and not from alice.
- Is a part of Bob hidden from the point of view of the shot ? No, he's on an endless plain with nothing to hide him.
- Is he in area terrain ? No.
- Does he have another source of cover save (like ork kustom field generator, jink save or whatsoever) ? Well no, but as it is night fight, the distance between the firer and the target might give him stealth or shrouded. Unfortunately, he's 1" away from the origin of the shot (as we consider the shot is coming from the template), which is not sufficient to get stealth/shrouded.

In the end, nothing gives him a cover save (which is different to saying that barrage weapon ignore cover saves Wink If bob was in a forest, he would have the corresponding cover save).


This is how I understand all of this. However, I agree it's not valid if the night fight is checked only once and for all when picking a target. Hence the previous question : when do we check for night fight ? Is it only when picking a target, or whenever you need to know if the target has stealth/shrouded from NF (ie when you need to calculate cover save) ?
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 12:37

@RabbitMaster

Page 124 "Night Fighting" --> "Pick a target"

When do you pick a target?

In the shooting phase, page 21, step 2 of "The Shooting Sequence": "Choose a target. The unit..."

Once the target is aqcuired you can resolve wether the target gains Stealth or Shrouded as per the Night Fighting rules.

That is why we said the Barrage rules are irrelevant. They play a role later in the sequence, at step 5.

Hope you see now what we mean? Or do you still see problems with this?

.
.
.

p.s.: 1 tiny little thing... Barrage shots never deviate 1", but a minimum of 2" as per the Barrage special rules. Always 2D6 without substracting BS. clown

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 13:38

When you check for night fight is irrelevant. The simple fact is determining cover saves and resolving night fight are two different things. Barrage weapons make no mention of using the centre of the blast for the purpose of resolving night fight.

Barrage weapons use the centre of the blast to determine cover saves and allocate wounds. Night fight is neither of those, it is a special rule. When you resolve the night fight special rule you measure from the firing unit as you are neither determining cover saves nor allocating wounds but resolving the night fight special rule.

You are assuming that determining cover saves is the same as resolving night fight. This is incorrect.

Let me put it in my bad French:

Les armes de barrage utilisent le centre de l'explosions pour déterminer la couverture et allouer les blessures. Mais le combat de nuit n'a rien à avoir avec la couverture, c'est une règle spéciale. Lors de la résolution de la règle spéciale: combat de nuit. On mesure à partir de l'unité qui est on train de tirer car on n'est pas en train de déterminez la couverture ou allouer des blessures.

Hope that helps. Wink



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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 13:50

@Mushkilla wrote:
When you check for night fight is irrelevant. The simple fact is determining cover saves and resolving night fight are two different things. Barrage weapons make no mention of using the centre of the blast for the purpose of resolving night fight.

Barrage weapons use the centre of the blast to determine cover saves and allocate wounds. Night fight is neither of those, it is a special rule. When you resolve the night fight special rule you measure from the firing unit as you are neither determining cover saves nor allocating wounds but resolving the night fight special rule.

You are assuming that determining cover saves is the same as resolving night fight. This is incorrect.

Let me put it in my bad French:

Les armes de barrage utilisent le centre de l'explosions pour déterminer la couverture et allouer les blessures. Mais le combat de nuit n'a rien à avoir avec la couverture, c'est une règle spéciale. Lors de la résolution de la règle spéciale: combat de nuit. On mesure à partir de l'unité qui est on train de tirer car on n'est pas en train de déterminez la couverture ou allouer des blessures.

Hope that helps. Wink



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Talk about helpful and dedicated! I hope you'll translate for me if I ever have a question I don't get in english Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 13:53

@facelessabsalom wrote:
Talk about helpful and dedicated! I hope you'll translate for me if I ever have a question I don't get in english Wink

Can you read Danish? Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 14:14

The direct effect of NF is to give special rules improving cover saves, or giving one. How can this not be involved in cover save determination ?

And the "when" is pretty important :
a) I have stealth/shrouded because there is NF and I was X" away from the firer when he targeted me.
b) I have stealth/shrouded because there is NF and I am X" away from the firer right now.
Those are not the same thing.

It seems that the NF rules goes for the a) solution, because of the title of the paragraph (picking a target & NF) and because the sentence just before talks about not being able to pick up a target more than 36" away.

Quote :
p.s.: 1 tiny little thing... Barrage shots never deviate 1", but a minimum of 2" as per the Barrage special rules. Always 2D6 without substracting BS. clown
2D6 without substracting BS is only for indirect fire (= when you don't have line of sight and/or the target is within minimum range). But in "direct" fire, you do substract BS to the deviation of a barrage weapon shot.
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 14:24

@RabbitMaster:

"2D6 without substracting BS is only for indirect fire (= when you don't have line of sight and/or the target is within minimum range). But in "direct" fire, you do substract BS to the deviation of a barrage weapon shot."

True. You're right. But that was just a silly lil sidenote I added later.

What about my whole main message? You don't write a single word about that.

I gave answer to your "when". It's option a.

For your new question:

"The direct effect of NF is to give special rules improving cover saves, or giving one. How can this not be involved in cover save determination ?"

This is what is being explained for a few posts now. NF does not grant coversaves. It grants special rules. Stop here. That's all you need to know about NF really. This is mainly why mushkilla finds the Barrage rules irrelevant. Which they are, but to help you understand I didn't say that and explained the shooting phase sequence...

Ok, now we look up what those special rules are... Aahh... Stealth or Shrouded, awesome. What do they do? Aahh... Improve coversave by 1 or 2.

So I've shot with a Barrage weapon, now let's work out what coversave you get...

If you and mushkilla want to duke it out, I' ll step out of the equation. But IMHO my answers are quite clear.

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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 14:59

@RabbitMaster wrote:
The direct effect of NF is to give special rules improving cover saves, or giving one. How can this not be involved in cover save determination ?

Night fight determines whether a unit can be shot, get's stealth or get's shrouded. It has nothing to do with determining cover, it is a special rule and it's listed under the mission special rules section. Stealth and Shrouded are two separate special rules that affect cover. Cover saves are determined using the rules on page 18.



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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 15:26

Well, I surrender... Jinx save and barrage weapons Smiley-white-flag

My messages are getting longer and longer, I can't answer to everyone at the same time and I am not speaking well enough in English to express my (complex) thoughts. In the end I'm probably wrong (I know that), but being told that Night Fight and determining cover saves are irrelevant each other is not something I can conceive.

Night fight can give 2 special rules, those special rules are involved in determining the cover save, so Night fight is involved in determining cover saves. If A => B => C, then A => C. Ok it's an indirect link, but it is a link nonetheless.


Quote :
What about my whole main message? You don't write a single word about that.

I gave answer to your "when". It's option a.

Don't worry, your message was why I wrote :
Quote :
It seems that the NF rules goes for the a) solution, because of the title of the paragraph (picking a target & NF) and because the sentence just before talks about not being able to pick up a target more than 36" away.

Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 15:33

Now I feel much better, less ignored. Wink

Please don't see it as surrendering. I'm doing my best to explain the situation. But I really can't say it more clear or simple as:

"Night fight can give 2 special rules, those special rules are involved in determining the cover save, so Night fight is involved in determining cover saves. If A => B => C, then A => C."

No! Bad, naughty RabbitMaster! Razz

See it as coincidance that those 2 special rules are involved with cover saves. You should really see night fighting and determining cover saves as 2 complete different things. I tried to make this clear to you by placing night fighting in step 2 of the shooting sequence. And determining coversaves at step 5 of the shooting sequence. Don't know how else to explain it really.

Little afterthought... I really don't think it's a language barriere thing, because I'm Dutch and judging your messages you speak perfect English. It's more a get-out-of-the-box kind of situation. Know what I mean.

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Jinx save and barrage weapons Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 15:41

Good thing this got cleared up! I've certainly learned something from this thread and from the thread.

So just to sum it up and see if I've got it correct:

1. Shooting unit pick target within 36.
2. Give the targeted unit Shroud if 24 or more away. Otherwise if the targeted unit is 12 away, give it Stealth.
3. Place blast marker over the unit, roll scatter, move blast marker.
4. Roll to wound
5. Allocate wound. Treat the shots as if they were from the center. At this stage, we're not making any new shots and we're not actually picking targets. So no need for NF check here. So, simply measure which model is nearest to determine closest model, put a wound on that model.
6a. Check if the model is allowed cover save. If there is terrain that gives cover save, give it the save. If not, don't give any cover save.
6b. Now, check if the model has any special rules or gears that grant or affect cover save. The model has stealth/shroud, give it improved cover save OR grant it a cover save.
7. Roll saves
8. Remove any unfortunate Mon-Keigh.

At 6a, I believe we simply check for the entire unti, not model wise?

@rabbitmaster - nothing wrong with your english, many good points you have!

Sorry if I hi-jack this thread...
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PostSubject: Re: Jinx save and barrage weapons   Jinx save and barrage weapons I_icon_minitime

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