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 750 points - Deny The Ravager

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XLIMil
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PostSubject: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 19:49

Hello! After playing around at 750 with Tau (fun) and Space Marines (very boring) I am now venturing into the dark side. I think I've come up with a good 50 lists and have eventually thrown out each for one reason or another, but rather than do that again I have come here to get a second opinion!

As the title insinuates never will I ever have a Ravager. I don't like them - it is quite literally a Raider for more $$. I know the internets like them and I know vehicle AT power in dark eldar is the current paradigm (because of pain tokens). Also of note is I am hesitant of suicide wyches. I don't like the idea of fielding something with that narrow a use because the games I play usually include low vehicle counts or MC's so that squad will only rarely get their points back.

Now for the list:
[747/750pts]

HQ
-Archon w/ Combat Drugs, Agonizer, Shadow Field [120]

Elites
-Incubi (4) w/ Klavex (included in the 4), Venom with 2nd SC (Archon goes here) [168]

Troops
-Kabalite Warriors (5) w/ Venom with 2nd SC (110)
-Kabalite Warriors (5) w/ Venom with 2nd SC (110)

Fast Attack
-Scourges (5) w/ 2 Heat Lances (134)

Heavy Support
-Talos w/ TL SC and TL Liquifier (105)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Archon/Incubi unit floors it into combat with the Klavex present to chump challenges - specifically against a necron overlord kitted for close combat that ruins my day every game. Those guys either sweep troops (I know its not ideal) or hunt warlord units and win by sweeping advances. Agonizer is present to fight necrons since I don't want to give my main opponent both saves (armor save and RP roll).

Should I be doing my close combat troupe differently? I have considered grots, but Incubi seem to just be better. No Klavex and just ignore HQ's?

Warriors sit back in the venoms saturating single squads until they fall and zoom to claim objectives on turn 5.

Nightshields? Too few troops for 750?

Scourges are my AT. They DS in and hopefully don't scatter out of melta range.

I am still not sure about this. Knocking off haywyches and ravagers does gimp me on the AT front. Lucky for me the vehicles I face regularly are few in number. Barges for necrons. The fast rhino thing for BA. Possibly Eldar Vypers and a Prisim. Eventually trukks and battlewaggons. Any suggestions on something better? Blasters or haywire blasters rather than the heat lances?

Finally the Talos for HS. It's going to hopefully draw fire away from my incubi venom buying time for both units. It also looks really cool so there is that.

I also like the jet fighter, but I am both not sure it fits with this list or where I would get the 40 points. Also the jet fighter would start an arms race among the people I play with, which could be bad (Dakka Jet, [ne]cro[n]issants, whatever the eldar are getting next month).
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 23:58

Wow and I thought I was skiimping on anti tank but thats just anemic although it is 750 where its hard to fit much. I can tell you that coming over to DE my impressions were similar to yours.. but that will change. Its the beauty of DE, units that look unappealing become great in the right circumstances. Pretty much everything is viable in some form. Anyway heres some input:

HQ:
the archons loadout could be better. Agonizers dont jive well with drugs and if going with the agonizer a succubus would be better. Either way the venom blade tends to outshine it. Most people either go cheap with SF/VB or tool up with the huskblade, or both. I like hb/vb but either way get HWGs on him, trust me you'll like it. Also note that you will likely want ap2 if fighting an O lord. Cant tell you how many ICs and MCs my huskblade has dispatched to date, but its a lot.

Elites:
Look fine, to this point ive run mine much larger but I know 4 is a staple size. I'm gearing up to roll 2x4 shortly. Anyway these guys will lose models from crashing and on the way in often leaving just the archon, but if they get there they can wreck face even with just 2-3. At this level id lose the klaivex.
Some say PGL is mandatory others not, ive used with and without but honestly I prefer not to put my archon with incubi at all. Incubi dont need more killyness they need ablatives and FNP. Haemies do this cheapest, succubus next (ablatives possibly FNP).
On your grots comment, IMO they are hands down the best escort for an archon. Cant speak highly enough of these dudes. Almost always net linebreaker often slay the warlord and always always cause problems where incubi can be hit or miss. Its also worth noting that grots do anti tank pretty well especially with HWGs on the archon. Just something to consider.

Troops:
Looks ok but in this context I would go with wyches with HWGs, and im someone who pretty much swore them off from the get go. Thing is you wont always want to rush out with them, they will get shot down and burn if you do that. However, fleeting gives them a serious threat radius and they can also throw a grenade before they charge which is really good. I usually camp a squad or two and pick their way into a long charge or wait for my opponent to come to me. The other option is if your venom can boost out of LoS and deliver them next turn. They are finesse but almost guarantee a dead tank.

FA:
Havent used scourges tbh. That said your paying 29 pts more than an av11 ravager for anti tank that wont become active until turn 2 at the earliest and has 1 less shot. I would consider these as supplement in larger games. Theres a reason ravagers are seen in every list though. Anything with 18" range is a one shot suicide run. Ravagers with night shields often stick around all game.

HS:
Nothing wrong here since it can double as AT. At 750 I think most people would advise you to make this and your FA into 2 ravagers or at least 2 taloi. The armies you named are all capable of av13 spam without even trying.

In short though every other form of AT is pretty much secondary to the ravager. Nowhere else can we find 3 DL's and not for 15 pts each (their cost on a rav). The next closest thing is 3 trueborn with 2 DL's for 86 pts.. worth a try if your resolute I guess.

Anyway thats what I got.

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XLIMil
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 01:03

Gave me some things to think about!

Re HQ:
Very good point about the HWG - they are now on this and the rest of the lists i will make. As for the agonizer - i have included it as a magnetized soft choice. I see my archon murdering marines, necron warriors and immortals much more than doing anything else. Yeah wounding on 2+ is nice with the VB, but it wont be rerolling on anything but the charge and even then the opponent always gets their armor saves reducing the advantage in wounds to nothing. As for the huskblade - I never, and i do mean never, want to have my archon in a challenge with the overlord because of mind shackle scarabs. The dice gods absolutely hate me for MSS rolls and if I don't kill myself the Warscythe will.

Re Elites:
The more I read here the more I move towards grots instead of incubi. Looks like I will be getting a set of IoB Rat Ogres with my Talos. Should I run 3+Abomination and the Archon in a raider or is that overkill at 750?

Re Troops:
I really just hate the idea of suicide wyches. That said I guess I can consider them as simply a path to fielding venoms with the added bonus of having slightly more utility than kabbies. What on earth am I goning to do with my 20 kabalite warriors Sad .

Re FA:
Anyone with Scourge experience want to chime in? I do truly understand that there is no substitute to Ravagers in the DE dex for AT, but how have these fared when used?

Re HS:
I may consider 2 taloi, but that is serious investment into taloi. Any comments on the jet fighter? Also, I have and still may consider 2xDL truborn (a place to use my kabbie models yay!). And yes this guy will run zero ravagers always and forever.

Again, thanks for the input!

EDIT: on second thought wont the loss of the incubi AP@ in exchange for the grots not be worth it?


Last edited by XLIMil on Sat May 04 2013, 02:53; edited 1 time in total
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kingc1313
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 02:34

when i have used scourge i have always ran them as AI with 2 splinter cannons or DS stock. With the splinter cannons they ten to live all game cause they just add too my fire. That being said i don't play games smaller than 1250. And DS they get a lot of shots without spending any more points but it is AI. As to AT if you do take 2 DL truborn i wouldn't bother putting them in a venom because they have the range. You could also try 4 blaster turborn in a venom. As DE our most reliable AT is the ravager. I have personally found the jet fighter to be hit and miss.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 02:42

The humble venom blade is insane value run the math. The agonizer barely beats it against meq, meanwhile 5-6 VB attacks against anything short of mech and including all xenos it wrecks face. VB is also light years ahead of the agonizer against teq.
The huskblade owns nids and plenty of other juicy targets but its not mandatory. Also in case you missed it like i did initially the agonizer is not poisoned its simply 4+ all time, important because no poison rerolls. On the MSS lord the best course is accept with a champ or just refuse then butcher his unit with yours and run him down. If you refuse the archon can still tank wounds on his SF just fyi.

4 grots is probably overkill at 750. Ive only lost my unit of 4 + archon once iirc even at 1850 and 2k. Between wound allocation with LoS, FNP, cover and the SF they. are. tuff.

Not trying to dissuade you from incubi because I love them to death just if I had to choose only one elites it would be grots. If you do roll grots dont over tool them though. A liquifier is ace but not mandatory and can screw charges. The abom is great with a VB because it nearly doubles his damage output. At higher levels the flesh gauntlet rocks too but beware the MSS lord can make it kill itself.


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XLIMil
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 04:01

Yar be your maths below. Unless I am mistaken and maths'd wrong then the Agonizer wins in every case, but as you said not by much (though check the immortal numbers as they are significant). No contest on VB vs TEQ, but for them I'll just splinter em to death hopefully. As for grots I am weary of losing AP2. Are 2 grots with a VB aberration a fair trade for 3 incubi and a klavex? Also, how is one actually supposed to kill a carnifex or tyrant with the huskblade before it kills you? If the dice gods even look at you wrong and you dont get that 6 to wound then you get squashed. It seems incubi are flat out better and less gimmicky vs MC's.

[tr]
Archon No Drugs VB vs Necron Warriors(3+)(2+)(4+)(5+)
Attacks on Charge (S3 A6)# Hit# Wounds# Wounds after armor# Wounds After RP
643.331.671.11
Attacks after Charge (S3 A5)# Hit# Wounds# Wounds after armor# Wounds After RP
53.332.781.390.93
Archon No Drugs VB vs Necron Immortals(3+)(2+)(3+)(5+)
Attacks on Charge (S3 A6)# Hit# Wounds# Wounds after armor# Wounds After RP
643.331.110.74
Attacks after Charge (S3 A5)# Hit# Wounds# Wounds after armor# Wounds After RP
53.332.780.930.62

Archon No Drugs Agonizer vs Necron Warriors(3+)(4+)(AP3 tfr No Save)(5+)
Attacks on Charge (S3 A6)# Hit# Wounds# Wounds after armor# Wounds After RP
64221.33
Attacks after Charge (S3 A5)# Hit# Wounds# Wounds after armor# Wounds After RP
53.331.671.671.11
Archon No Drugs Agonizer vs Necron Immortals(3+)(4+)(AP3 tfr No Save)(5+)
Attacks on Charge (S3 A6)# Hit# Wounds# Wounds after armor# Wounds After RP
64221.33
Attacks after Charge (S3 A5)# Hit# Wounds# Wounds after armor# Wounds After RP
53.331.671.671.11

@kingc: I may try out blasterborn. also good point about not giving 2xDL trueborn a venom as I have recently been auto-attaching dual SC venoms to units in battlescribe.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 05:23

Try the agonizer and see how it goes, its not poor by any means just 15 pts more for what is often comparable damage. If all you face is meq though it may be the better investment.

On the huskblade drugs helped on some kills with reroll wounds but the majority have been at str 3. I haven't tackled a tyrant yet and wouldn't care to. Got lucky on a trygon though and the others like fexes or tervigons aren't that big a gamble due to the SF save and low attacks lower ws. Big bugs fear the thing. Also up until recently I was running a flesh gauntlet on the aberration who actually claimed a couple kills.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 10:46

If your running a talos, you will want to run grotesques in one form or another as it makes for better target saturation.

Grots

This is the set up if you run an Archon:

Archon, shadow field, haywire, venom blade/agoniser/huskblade
3 Grots, liquifier
1 Aberration, venom blade
Raider

This is the set up if you run a Succubus:

Succubus, haywire, venom blade, power axe
3 Grots, liquifier
1 Aberration, venom blade
Raider

This is the set up if you run a Haemi:

1 Haemi ancient, power axe, liquifier
3 Grots, liquifier
1 Aberration, flesh gauntlet
Raider

Note: you need the gauntlet as it makes the aberration more dangerous in challenges as he will be fighting most of them. The ancient gives the unit I5 for sweeping advance, has W5 and an extra attack making the power axe a lot more effective, and gives the unit LD9.

If you plan on using the above you will need more raiders, park 2-3 empty raiders within embarking distance of them as that way at least one will survive to make the enemy. Then you are good to go.

Mind shackle Scarabs

When things happen simultaneously the player who's turn it is decides the order in which they are resolved. As long as you charge the necron lord (i.e its your turn) you can get him to resolve the scarabs before challenges are issued as they both happen at the start of the fight sub-phase. This means the scarabs will affect a random model in base contact before the challenge happens. This gives you at least one round of not trying to kill yourself.

No Ravagers

If you are not taking Ravagers it means you need to take Raiders to supplement your ranged AT. Filling them with 10 warriors with either a splinter cannon or a darklance depending on your preference.

Scourge

Heat lances are not going to cut it on scourge, they are fragile so getting close just exacerbates the problem, the main reason to take them is for haywire blasters. Otherwise reavers are just better in every way sadly.

How your list might play

Here's a battle report for a game at 1000 points using a similar list, hopefully it will be useful to you.

Hope that helps. Smile

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Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeSun May 05 2013, 19:31

Scourges
The only reason I'd take scourges is for haywire blasters. Even then, wyches with haywire grenades are better.
Ravagers
You could take 4 trueborn with blasters instead of a ravager. Blasterborn are awesome.
Grots vs. Incubi
Grotesques are very durable... T5, W3, FNP. They're good for soaking damage and protecting a haemy or other IC. Incubi (despite their 3+ save) are still T3, and will die pretty easily. If you're taking a lot of meat bags (talos, etc.) grotesques can be ideal for providing multiple targets. If you're going up against terminators/MEQ, however, incubi will eat right through them.
Archon
Huskblade/Shadowfield is extremely effective, but too expensive for 750
VB is great, but will fail against MEQ/TEQ
Agonizer is pretty good, but you might consider getting a Clone Field instead of the Shadow Field, to save on points
Remember that a haemy is pretty much just a pain token for 50 points, in 750 lists I often take him without any additional equipment.
Note on liquifiers
The liquifier is pretty much the best flamer in the game. You have a 50% chance of piercing MEQ, and a 66.6% chance of piercing standard 4+ armor. In spite of this, it can be unreliable, and if you're charging from 7"-9" away, it's not going to do much damage. In my experience, liquifiers are best when you have lots of them, and your enemy is planning on getting close to you.

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XLIMil
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PostSubject: Re: 750 points - Deny The Ravager   750 points - Deny The Ravager I_icon_minitimeSun May 05 2013, 21:45

@Mushkilla:
Thanks for the Grot load outs! Fair enough about Reavers being simply better than scourges. I am starting to sense my supply of Venoms and lack of Raiders is going to be hurting me re not wanting Ravagers. As always the battle reports are a great resource. As for planet bowling ball: I suffer from the opposite problem and always play on a crowded board with ample BLOS ruins and forests (what can I say, terrain creation is fun!).

@kryo:
Point noted about haywyches. RIP Scourges. Blasterborn are now being considered, but i think haywych squads will take priority at 750 & 1000. Interesting point about the Clone Field. Overwatch being what it is currently though can a clone field actually be worth it? Finally, another good point about the liq's. I want them. I need them.

2 new lists!

First is taloi & grots. Essentially Archon w/Grots in a raider, 2x5 Warriors in dual SC Venoms, and then 2 TL Liq Taloi. With wargear finagling it comes to 745. I think the consensus here though will be that it has no to little AT. Warriors could be replaced by haywyches, but then the list would have very little ranged firepower.

I think doubling down on taloi is the right idea, but at 750 it leaves very little room for other things after you add the grot guards for an archon. A more efficient list would probably be all coven and be lead by WWP Haemi's. Not really sure I like where that goes.

Second, which I like better is the following:

Falling Down The Reaver Hole - 750/750
[120] Archon w/Drugs, Agonizer, Shadow Field

[121] Truborn (3) w/ 2 SC in a dual SC Venom - deploy separately to be annoying.

[110] Warriors (5) in dual SC Venom - sit back and cap home objective

[208] Wyches (9) w/ VB Hekatrix, 1 Razorflail, HWG in Raider w/ Nightshields and TGL - I don't like it since it will die from a mean glance, but hopefully the Archon's SF will soak up some wounds before shorting. Without this here I don't know what I will do with the Archon.

[191] Reavers (6) w/ VB Champion, 2 Heat Lance, 1 Caltrops - reserve and use the caltrops when they come in to hopefully snatch a pain token.

AT from Raider, Haywyches (though hopefully they wont be charging a tank), and the Reavers. AI from Warriors and Jerkborn and the wych boat and Reavers. I realize dual purpose Reavers are frowned upon, but I need the AT option as well as some extra AI punch. Thanks everyone for the comments so far! What should be changed now? Smile
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