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 what to do after your vehicles blow up?

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Squierboy
colinsherlow
Brom
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that 9uy
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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 06:23

Its a 4+ when you are inside the terrain. 5+ if you are being shot by a unit on the other side of it.
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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 15:57

That's not right, that 9uy. Neither are you correct, Brom.Darth,very close. Let me share what I have worked out. Area terrain, as defined on page 91, always confers a 5+ save, regardless of models being obscured. Then on page 105 it states that models in cover behind wreckage or rubble get a 4+. In cover behind refers to a model being obscured by one or more elements of that terrain. The word wreckage is clearly defined on page 105 and it makes no distinction for being inside or outside the area terrain to claim this 4+ save, just that a model must be in cover behind it, which I think we can safely interpret as the same as being 'obscured' by it. This i exactly the same as with a ruin on a base. The base is area terrain, therefore you can claim a 5+, rising to 3+ if you go to ground. Being in cover behind one or more of the walls of the ruin confers a 4+, rising to 3+ if you gtg. This 4+ save is made on the basis of being obscured behind the 'element' of the ruin and is not therefore dependent on being within the area (base) terrain associated with the ruin. So, it's 5+ inside the area terrain, rising to 3+ if you go to ground. It's 4+ if obscured to the tune of 25% of the model in question by parts of the wreckage, regardless of whether the model is inside or outside the area terrain. Remember, you cannot combine cover-saves, so the best save available, without some other special rule, such as stealth, for example, in play, will always be a 3+.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 16:15

But if you are on the ground floor of a ruin (area terrain), and obscured by a wall of the ruin. You would get a 4+ cover save for being behind the ruin, and a +2 to cover saves for going to ground in area terrain. To my knowledge no where does it say the rules for terrain are mutually exclusive.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 18:48

Ok back on my beloved PC with rules in hand mwahahaha.. Anyway:

Quote :
That's not right, that 9uy. Neither are you correct, Brom.Darth,very close.
After a quick brush up I agree. So a brief breakdown of terrain and cover saves:

AREA TERRAIN:
-area terrain confers 5+
-going to ground in area terrain gives +2 rather than the normal +1

RUINS:
-ruins confer 4+ cover (+1 if GtG)
-if ruins have a base the base is instead area terrain (5+, and +2 if GtG)

WRECKAGE:
-wreckage is area terrain (5+) when inside, if intervening instead confers 4+
-GtG inside wreckage confers 3+ (5+, and +2 for GtG)
-GtG behind wreckage confers 3+ (4+, and +1 for GtG)

The maximum natural cover save a model can receive, (outside of an aegis/stealth/shrouded etc) but including going to ground, is 3+.

Cheers to everyone here. Sounds like most of us have been misplaying one aspect or another.

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Oh 40k. What would I do without your lovable rules ambiguity?
Aint this the truth!
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 19:03

Brom wrote:
Cheers to everyone here. Sounds like most of us have been misplaying one aspect or another.

Your post is hardly conclusive. You have failed to cover the situation where a unit is on the ground floor of a ruin (area terrain) but is obscured by one of the ruin walls. Or is in a crater with a a ruin between them and the firer thus obscuring them. In which case they are in a area terrain getting +2 to cover saves when going to ground, and obscured by a ruin for a 4+ cover save.

No where in the rules does it say a unit can't benefit from multiple types of terrain at the same time, only that they must use the best save available to them.

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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 19:06

Ah right you are, when multiple instances/types what-have-you come into play as you have shown it is indeed possible to net a 2+ cover save.
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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 19:16

The best example I found to illustrate it is mysterious terrain.

A unit is in a mysterious river that counts as industrial ooze, granting them a 5+ cover save, when going to ground in industrial ooze each model in the unit must take a toughness test or die. There is a ruin between them and the enemy unit shooting them, obscuring them.

If terrain was mutually exclusive (units can only be affected by one piece of terrain at a time) then the unit could go to ground using the 4+ cover from the ruin and not take the toughness test for going to ground in industrial ooze (as they can only be affected by one piece of terrain). Getting the benefits of going to ground without the drawbacks of the terrain they are in. Which makes no sense, as they are clearly going to ground in industrial ooze.

Thankfully no where in the rules does it say terrain is mutually exclusive, so units can be affected by any number of pieces of terrain they interact with.

Hope that helps. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 20:37

I don't have any actual wreckage models, I use flat pieces of felt currently, but I hope to put together something...soon. So far, I've always played straight 5+ in and 4+ behind without getting into actual cover percentages on the models. I am not a big fan of modelling for advantage so I want to understand what my wreck/crater models will do.

Anyhow, from the sound of the debate so far a WAAC player would model wreckage/craters to always obscure 25% or more; perhaps even going so far as to create high 'walls' to block LOS. I would never claim this or agree to it. It does seems reasonable to me that a vehicle explosion would yield enough remaining pieces to give a model something to hide behind, at least partially.

So ultimately, I guess I am saying that it would be nice if there was a standard answer. I should know better.
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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 20:54

I dont see anything wrong with how you have been approaching it. Your basically following the letter of the rules just without modeling the terrain for true line of sight. As long as thats understood I think its fine.

I really dont see WAAC being an issue in this discussion though since the 4+ is provided to models behind it anyway barring tanks and MCs.
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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 23:01

The save for the area terrain and the save for obscured by ruin are two different saves. You can't mix and match saves. Therefore it does say in the rules that it's area terrain or ruins and you can't get +2 for gtg unless it's the area-terrain save you're using and not the ruin. The two cover-saves are exactly that, two different cover-saves. It's one or the other I'm afraid Mush, it's actually very clearly the case. This is how the Great Britain and European tournaments play it, I know because the guy who co-runs my local club is in the England team.
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PostSubject: Re: what to do after your vehicles blow up?   what to do after your vehicles blow up? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 07:09

+2 to cover saves when going to ground is not a save. Its a benefit for being in the terrain. The same way stealth or shrouded are not saves. If the rules said area terrain provides a 5+ covers save, and a 3+ cover save when going to ground I would agree with you, but that is not the case. So rules as written you are incorrect.

As for rules as intended, the ruin makes it harder for your foe to see you and therefore harder to hit, the roots and ditches in a forest provide a good place to hid from any shrapnel that gets through. So I don't see it as being against the "spirit" of the game either.

From my 5th edition experience. Tournaments make their own rules based on their own judgement, they have nothing to do with the actual rules as written, merely what the tournament organiser thinks is right in his heart (or his own personal bias as is often the case). Therefore they have no weight. Not to mention they have no consistency from scene to scene. So saying "my friend says" and "he's the best 40k player I know" has no relevance here.

That being said, for vehicle explosions, I use whatever the "local custom" is, if people say all vehicles leave craters, then 5+ cover it is, if they say wreckages are 4+ cover, that's fine too, doesn't bother me either way. Smile

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