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tlronin
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Brom
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PostSubject: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeWed May 01 2013, 23:15

So this is the latest incarnation ive brewed, its all comers but considers the new tau threat in my neighborhood.

Basic idea is to dump 3 durable threats in their face that double as AT/AI but are also meant to attract opposing AT fire. Meanwhile night shields allow me to engage their army at range with 'limited' retaliation for the first turn or so and deal damage while they address the combat units bearing down. Scoring units usually hide until the killings done situation dependent. nuff said. Id like 2 wych units instead but not sure where to squeeze em. Thoughts?

HQ
archon, shadow field, huskblade, vb, drugs, hwg 145

ELITES
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberration- vb, raider- sails 230

TROOPS
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc, night shields 120
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc, night shields 120
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc, night shields 120
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc, night shields 120
5 warriors 45

FA
9 beast pack ,3 bm, 6 razorwing 126
9 beast pack, 3 bm, 6 razorwing 126

HS
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115

TOTAL- 1497
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 05:35

Tau have plenty of 6+ Strength weapons that will obliterate your beast packs. Maybe go for 1 large unit of beasts. 5 masters, 6 flocks and 8 hounds.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 07:55

Your AT consists solemnly out of the 3 Ravagers?

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 13:57

Your Venoms dont need night shields, they need a blaster in their kabalites, or their kabalites to be wyches with haywire grenades.

Night shields let you keep a few things out of range, not everything.
Keep them on the ravagers, get rid of thje foot warriors, swap to hay wire wyches, buy the other two Blasters.

Your aberation is the strongest thing in your army, doesnt need a poisioned weapon.

What do the sails offer?
You can already move 30" without them. Add a 6" move, 6" disembark and you are at 42" plus charge for threat radius.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 14:35

@DominicJ wrote:
Your aberation is the strongest thing in your army, doesnt need a poisioned weapon.

I disagree. The venom blade is a great choice on the aberration, it gives him an additional attack, means he always wounds on 2s (Grotesques are S5 so will still only wound marines on 3s if they don't have furious charge) and more importantly he gets to re-roll to wound against anything T5 or less. For five points the aberration goes from inflicting 1.6 wounds on the charge against T4 models to 2.9 wounds, that's an 81% increase in damage output!

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 15:17

Quote :
Tau have plenty of 6+ Strength weapons that will obliterate your beast packs. Maybe go for 1 large unit of beasts. 5 masters, 6 flocks and 8 hounds.
This I have been rather torn on and ive math hammered it every which way. I need to get some extensive playtime with them I guess.
Against nearlyl every other opponent I face except tau I figured cover saves on flocks would be better than paying for the 4++ (then even against str 6+ its losing a 12 pt model vs a 15 pt model) but I can see it has flaws. Theres just so much to consider here. Mixed units have more resilience against ID at higher cost but the khymera can be removed by a round of anti infantry first so is it really worth the trouble??

Straight flocks otoh are far better against non ID moreso considering cover, but evaporate against cover ignoring ID fire, i.e. tau. (I also face flavors of meq, gk, nids, orks, crons, tau are a new addition round here).

Another couple builds I am considering is 3 bm 10 khymera 2 flocks or simply 5 bm 10 flocks and all weapons be damned its still 15 wounds even without cover 4 bm's up front. These are far more expensive though. idk.. ive read every topic I can find still not completely decided.

Quote :
Your AT consists solemnly out of the 3 Ravagers?

Yes, although I count grots and the beasts in this role as well and 1 lance from the raider although it almost always dies. Grots are great here not so sure on the beastpacks yet though.
The list wont stand up to parking lots but the average list I see of 4-8 mech, at least 1-2 are flyers and some are transports it can handle, struggling at the higher end.
My problem in this department is where to get efficient AT after ravagers? Ive tried blasters and I just dont like em. 18" AT on fragile troops or even trueborn usually ended in suicide runs for me plus I dont like exposing a unit for a single shot weapon. I feel its an all or nothing type of build.

Quote :
Your Venoms dont need night shields, they need a blaster in their kabalites, or their kabalites to be wyches with haywire grenades.

Night shields let you keep a few things out of range, not everything.
Keep them on the ravagers, get rid of thje foot warriors, swap to hay wire wyches, buy the other two Blasters.
This I will try. Ive run wyches on and off, in small doses, but ive always gone with all or nothing on night shields. The sheer horror certain armies feel when having to absorb firepower when nothing of theirs can shoot back is amazing. Especially crons where I feel I kinda need the 'free turn' or two..nids and orks its also pretty broken against. That said I can see how NS only on ravagers would forward this lists gameplan and I do want 2 wych units.

Quote :
Your aberation is the strongest thing in your army, doesnt need a poisioned weapon.
Mushkilla is dead on. That extra 5 pts makes the aberations damage output slightly less than the other 3 grots combined! Its worth it.

Quote :
What do the sails offer?
You can already move 30" without them. Add a 6" move, 6" disembark and you are at 42" plus charge for threat radius.
Threat radius is sufficient. What sails bring is positioning. Theyre like night shields lite, allowing me to deploy further back if warranted and keep that same threat radius and also allow me to get out of LoS far easier making it a bitch to take out my raider. Love em.

So an updated version would be:

HQ
archon, shadow field, huskblade, vb, drugs, hwg 145

ELITES
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberration- vb, raider- sails 230

TROOPS
5 wyches, hwg, venom- 2 sc 125
5 wyches, hwg, venom- 2 sc 125
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 110
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc 110
5 warriors 45

FA
9 beast pack ,3 bm, 6 razorwing 126
9 beast pack, 3 bm, 6 razorwing 126

HS
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115

TOTAL- 1487

Basically encourages people not to shoot my ravagers which is always a goal of ours. Beastpacks I want 2 of just not sure on the build but I want multiple resources directed at my combat units.
Scoring troops almost never embark early prefering to camp in ruins and such although dual wyches gives me the option of rushing 5 units that can damage anything short of a land raider in CQC.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 15:35

Hmmm heres a thought, I could lose the bare warriors to make more traditional beastpacks, not sure thats a good idea or not.

I can exert some serious pressure with similar lists but if someone dedicates attention to my scoring units ive found they can often wipe them out even with 5 seperate units in cover. Not that Im overly concerned about multiple objectives anyway but ive lost games because of it before. Usually im looking for FB/LB/StW and a single objective at most. Thoughts?
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Drev
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 16:08

Another thought on bringing some additional AT at a reasonable point cost. I am really liking the 3x trueborn with 2x dark lance unit. Plop it in cover, shoot all game, and it generally gets ignored. Anything that fires at it is not firing at your scoring troops; go to ground and continue to plink away. It does get away from our mobility theme but you already have a unit of footsloggers.

Having three mini-stars is a new concept for me so I will just throw out an idea or two but take it with the appropriate grains of salt. You would have to shuffle something to have the points. I'm not a big fan of having less troop choices but four isn't bad and you can't have everything. If you lose the bare warriors, add in the extra points you are currently floating, and convert one of the HWG wych squads back to warriors you are still short. Going back to warriors with the other wych squad will get you there (no book with me so working off memory). You would be left with four basic warrior squads with venoms.

If you go this route you might need to hide the warriors until your ravagers, venoms, beasts, and grots have thinned things out. Not easy to do with Tau but with enough saturation something will survive. And if they ignore your grots or beasts for a turn or two they will be sorry.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 16:45

Drev- cant say ive really delved into lanceborn although I did try foot splinterborn and they were good. I like it although cover ignoring is still an issue. They seem good against everyone else though just for cheap darklight.

Also you've basically described exactly what I do every game with my troops. Your description of thinning things out first with other units is entirely accurate as well. Warriors usually only become active late in the game for me.
Anyway its been working very well but now enter tau which can snipe all my troops regardless of LoS/cover. Time to adjust. Thing is I really dont think more troops matters in this match because how easy they can be removed. Durable threats are what counts I would say.

With that in mind, if I put enough killy stuff in his face then priorities change! This approach is similar to all my lists but taken to the extreme with DE and its probably the only reason I get away with so few troops.

Certain things cause me problems, deep striking FW tomb stalkers being one of them, very heavy mech, and now tau.

Anyway thanks for the input.
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kryo
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 04:53

I find night shields to be extremely useful against tau. You can completely deny markerlights by staying 31" away from them (since they are heavy weapons).
In addition, night shields let you deny their infantry the chance to shoot at your transports (at least until you get real close), so the shields help for bigger maps.

Edit: My friend plays Tau a lot, and I play DE a lot... he sure loves those big maps No
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 05:17

Thanks for the input kryo have you been springing for them on everything or just select units?
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 05:22

Honestly, I usually just take nightshields on everything.
Playing against space marines, I can usually get away with putting night shields on transports only, but they really help playing tau, because of those smart missile systems and markerlights.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 15:11

Cool thats what I figured. I have yet to play with selective NS, its been all or nothing to this point, but ill be testing them just on ravagers shortly and im sure they will work out.
NS on everything gets expensive quick but everytime I cut the 90 ish pts they end up going to something pretty small and (IMO) less significant then protecting every skimmer in my fleet.

Also ive reached the conclusion that all flock packs are the way forward for me, not just against tau but all my opponents (not counting baron lists with uber packs though).
Reason is khymera discourage anti tank fire which is contra to one of the reasons for the packs inclusion in my list. I want AT directed their way. If tau want to expend marker lights followed by fire from an iontide, hymp etc then fine thats minimum 4 units dedicated to 2 packs and it still doesnt guarantee they can remove 9 wounds since AT is rarely that high volume. Against everyone else 33 wounds is superior at 3.81 pts/wound especially if factoring in cover and going to ground for 3++.
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 19:33

EDIT- List edited since I realized I got sidetracked from my primary gameplan, mostly due to my love of incubi (and the models)..heh. Ive since visited a sweat lodge, prayed and made some animal sacrifices and finally gained control of the urge.. for now. Anyway see below:

HQ
archon, shadow field, huskblade, vb, hwg 135
haemonculus, vb 55

ELITES
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberration- vb, raider- sails 230 (ICs here)

TROOPS
5 wyches, hwg, venom- 2 sc, night shields 135
5 wyches, hwg, venom- 2 sc, night shields 135
3 wracks, venom- 2 sc, night shields 105
3 wracks, venom- 2 sc, night shields 105

FA
9 beast pack, 3 bm, 6 razorwing 126
9 beast pack, 3 bm, 6 razorwing 126

HS
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115

TOTAL- 1497

This list will likely face crons with multiple scythes anni barges MSS etc, mechanized orks multiple BWs and manz large boyz units, nids with double flyrants hordes of gants doom hive guard, BAs with multiple podded fragiosos heavy on tacs DC some mech, and of course tau maybe others.. pretty much everyone has flyers except me.

Gameplan is send the combat elements forward while my 7 gunships soften the enemy up. My one lament is still the incubi. The only other alternative I can see though is to drop to 3 troops with which I can squeeze 5 incubi in the 4th venom and let them operate as countercharge/secondary wave although fully capable of joining the rush if situation deems favorable. Thoughts? Im not concerned with troops here honestly since the plan is to win through secondary objectives and push people off theirs. If I have a troop model alive at the end to score a single objective cool. Thats it.


Last edited by Brom on Tue May 07 2013, 18:42; edited 2 times in total
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kryo
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeSun May 05 2013, 23:42

Looks fantastic, love the triple ravagers.

You'll likely find that the Huskblade is overkill when paired with incubi (they have AP2 weapons too), but it's nice to have an invul save in the squad.

Also, note that none of your elite assault units have grenades. (except the archon)
This means that they'll strike at initiative 1 when charging through cover, and that sucks balls for DE. Consider a phantasm grenade launcher, although it's a very expensive upgrade.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 04:20

Thanks kryo although I've been second guessing the double incubi now. I down sized my 1850 list to get here. Maybe I should lose one unit to flesh out everything else?

The incubi run solo, the archon rolls with the grots and haemie. I dropped the aberration with vb i usually run for a haemie (figured same pts, majority toughness 5, chumps challenges, one less wound but adds FC meaning I don't need drugs for the archon and get cheaper more resilient camping troops).

My main issue atm is whether i want to be sending half to all of my venoms up close or not. To this point I've usually kept all but 2-3 assault raiders at arms length and I like how that works. I'm starting to think I may not like feeling obligated to send venoms forward with just 4 in the army. Anyone else run into this and am I just over thinking things?
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeMon May 06 2013, 04:44

A full troop squad in a raider certainly wouldn't hurt this list. If you put the archon with the grots, the haemy with a squad of incubi, and drop the second squad of incubi, it would free up some points. You could get a raider for some of those wracks and deploy them turn 1, and otherwise flesh out your army.

I find that if you tell your opponent about reaver bladevanes, and brag about their 36" move distance, they tend to waste time shooting them. Essentially, for 66 points you get a pretty good suicide unit (with a 3+ jink save) that will draw fire off your important crap.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: DE 1.5k    DE 1.5k  I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 18:47

Ok Ive updated the last list 4 posts back and since posted a new list on which I would like some final input please. Also keep in mind the focus on non objective based wins. Its something ive been developing since picking up dark eldar and ive really been enjoying the challenge and change in strategy it presents.
In fact any suggestions to take this to the extreme would be most appreciated along with any insight from players that also approach DE in this manner. Thanks, Brom.

Had a sudden moment of clarity with what ive been trying to accomplish so this is what ill be fielding tonight:

HQ
archon, shadow field, huskblade, vb, hwg 135

ELITES
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberration- vb, raider- sails, night shields 240 (archon)
5 incubi, venom- 2 sc, night shields 185

TROOPS
5 wyches, hwg, venom- 2 sc, night shields 135
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc, night shields 135
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc, night shields 135

FA
15 beast pack, 3 bm, 10 khymera, 2 razorwing 186

HS
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115

TOTAL- 1496

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