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 Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?

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Flickerfield
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PostSubject: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 29 2013, 22:49

I'm really not fan of five man squads anymore and was wondering if I could get a Venom as a dedicated transport to a ten man unit of warriors but not start them in it. I wanted to use it as a gun boat, and I have found no rules stating I can't do this.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 29 2013, 23:23

Venom has a max. capacity of 5, so no.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 29 2013, 23:30

I would not be loading them in it to start. I would start them outside of it and thus avoid the transport capacity rule.

I do not see anything that states "A unit cannot not have a dedicated transport if the unit size exceeds its transport capacity" only rule I see is the one stating you cannot put more people inside a dedicated transport then its maximum capacity. If I do not start them in it, it avoids the whole transport capacity altogether.
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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 01:28

Look on page 91 of the codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 07:06

Quote :
"A unit cannot not have a dedicated transport if the unit size exceeds its transport capacity"
There is that exact rule

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 17:35

@DominicJ wrote:
Quote :
"A unit cannot not have a dedicated transport if the unit size exceeds its transport capacity"
There is that exact rule

actually it isnt. a squad of 10 marines can buy a razorback although they have unit of 10 and the razorback transport capacity is only 6. The problem comes with how the wording in the DE codex sets for our options to buy transports for our squads. It states it clearly there in our codex (I dont know the page number, but someone posted 91 above me so might want to look at that one)

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 18:59

Yep, Page 91, no ambiguity there - can't be done.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 19:11

We arent space marines....
Page 91
Last sentence of the dedicated transport text....

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 22:31

As above stated, we are not allowed to buy Venoms for troops larger than five men. Yes, it is against the normal rule and afaik we are the only Codex with that rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 07:52

with the risk of being accused of backmodding, but... Should this not be in the rulessection? What a Face

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 13:54

'Twas just about to move this. Smile

The guy who came in the top 16 of Adepticon with CWE/DE did this, I guess people didn't realise as most other armies can do so.

If you could, would you take bigger squads and more dedicated squadrons?

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 14:23

@Sky Serpent wrote:
'If you could, would you take bigger squads and more dedicated squadrons?

It would seem to be against the spirit of the thing.

I never could stand the "but the rule book doesn't say I CAN'T do it arguement" anyway.

So that's a no then Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 19:05

@Sky Serpent wrote:
'Twas just about to move this. Smile

The guy who came in the top 16 of Adepticon with CWE/DE did this,
Yeah, i was happy to see some DE (even as allies) make it that far, but then got bummed when i noticed his list was illegal.

And pretty blatantly too. at arguably the biggest tournament for this hobby there is. Do they even check these lists?

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 20:18

@Skulnbonz wrote:
And pretty blatantly too. at arguably the biggest tournament for this hobby there is. Do they even check these lists?

as I know some of the people that run adepticon... no Razz

but seriously we are an obscure army with an obscure rule that no other army has... it was most likely not looked at closely enough.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 09:05

@Sky Serpent wrote:
'Twas just about to move this. Smile

The guy who came in the top 16 of Adepticon with CWE/DE did this, I guess people didn't realise as most other armies can do so.

If you could, would you take bigger squads and more dedicated squadrons?

Is the somewere? Even with its flaw it would be interesting to see.

To the conversation: The rule is simple to understand and it is stupid. But it is still there.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 10:06

Out of curiosity, do the other other codicies/codexes specifically allow units to take a transport they can't fit in or is it just not explicitly banned? - apologies, I have only read the DE codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 10:24

@Skyboard surfer wrote:
Out of curiosity, do the other other codicies/codexes specifically allow units to take a transport they can't fit in or is it just not explicitly banned? - apologies, I have only read the DE codex.

All the Marine Codexes specifically allow units to buy transports that they cannot fit in. For other codexes they don't seem to mention either way. Codex Eldar says "units of up to 12 models my purchase a Wave Serpent" (or words to that effect) but Codex CSM allows, for example, a 20-man Plague Marine unit to purchase a dedicated transport even though they can't possibly fit in it. It only seems to be our codex that specifically disallows it.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 10:27

Yeah, that's why I was bummed out by the eldar codex. My plan is to start a small Eldar contingent with Wraithguard as troops (stick a Spiritseer with them). But it says units of 10 models are allowed to do this. So they won't fit in a Waveserpent. Bummer...

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 10:39

Well, new Eldar Codex soon (allegedly) so maybe they'll change it.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeFri May 03 2013, 10:40

Keeping my fingers crossed.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 09:34

i don't know many codex's so cant comment too much, but i was under the impression that a 10 man squad of space marines could get a razoreback because they can split into attack squads of 5? and it was FAQ for SW so they could get a razor too even tho they don't have the same split up into attack squads. i just assumed then that that rule was in each codex lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeSat May 04 2013, 17:47

@baster wrote:
i don't know many codex's so cant comment too much, but i was under the impression that a 10 man squad of space marines could get a razoreback because they can split into attack squads of 5? .

Maybe thats a relict from the 5th edition. I play Sisters of Battle and I have to take a minimum squad size of ten girls (and I don't have options like splitting into attack squads) and have the option for a an Immolator (can carry six sisters) as a dedicated transport. So I can buy dedicated transport which can't carry my troops.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 11:05

I noticed the other day that, RAW, it seems that a squad of 6 Grots can take a Raider, even if they can't fit in it. This probably isn't RAI (after all, they're not allowed a Venom, presumably because they can never fit in it). The limit on p. 91, however, refers to the number of models in the unit, not whether they can fit in the vehicle.

A unit of 6 Grots is still only 6 models, which is less than the transport capacity of the Raider (10), even though they would take up 12 spaces in a transport. So if you really want to run useless transports, there's one you can argue - but, aside from the fact that it's arguably abusing the RAW, it seems pretty pointless to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 11:57

@Ben_S wrote:
I noticed the other day that, RAW, it seems that a squad of 6 Grots can take a Raider, even if they can't fit in it. This probably isn't RAI (after all, they're not allowed a Venom, presumably because they can never fit in it). The limit on p. 91, however, refers to the number of models in the unit, not whether they can fit in the vehicle.

A unit of 6 Grots is still only 6 models, which is less than the transport capacity of the Raider (10), even though they would take up 12 spaces in a transport. So if you really want to run useless transports, there's one you can argue - but, aside from the fact that it's arguably abusing the RAW, it seems pretty pointless to me.

Grots 'count as' 2 models for the purposes of transport capacity (Bulky, pg 35) so no, you can't take a Raider for 6 of them. RAW or RAI.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad?   Can you get a venom with a 10 man squad? I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 12:35

I suppose it depends how you interpret 'for the purposes of transport capacity'.

It's quite clear that, if you have four Grots in a Raider, there are only two places left. But it's not clear (RAW at least) that it affects this particular comparison, since the p. 91 rule is not 'a unit may only take a transport if they fit within its transport capacity'. Rather, the rule refers to the transport capacity of the vehicle, which in this case is ten, and the number of models in the unit, which on the face of it is six (the unit size).

So, the question is whether Bulky models also count for two for this purpose. I assume that's the intention (RAI), but it doesn't seem cut-and-dried to me from the way that the rules are written. Anyway, my claim was only that one could have this argument, if one wanted to; I don't have any real interest in actually having the argument, since it's not something I'd try personally.
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