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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 27 2013, 23:39

how does this work. As we have the rule that states we discard the highest of 3, shadow in the warp states we role on 3 and suffer perils as normal. do we discard the highest still?

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 28 2013, 00:04

Yes,

Runes of Witnessing would take precedence I belief.

As Shadows causes you to take it on 3 dice and RoW already forces you to do this then I would consider the removing the highest dice as an extension to that and you would follow the wording of RoW as normal.

A bit confusing yes but I say that runes would take precedence.
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SebastionSynn
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 28 2013, 01:16

that's only partially correct. shadows makes you roll 3 dice and you suffer perils on a double 1 or double 6, RoW makes you roll 3 dice and remove the highest. so you roll a 4, 6, 6. take a perils test for rolling double 6's and then remove the highest die roll, succeeding in your psychic test.
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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 28 2013, 01:50

I had a long debate with a friend of mine who plays (or used to) play nids.

Here is what we determined:

Runes of witnessing says you roll an extra die and discard the highest (doesn't say you roll 3, says you roll an extra die).

Shadows in the warp says you role an extra die.

So RoW would say you roll 4 dice and discard the highest.

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 28 2013, 13:02

@Silverglade wrote:
I had a long debate with a friend of mine who plays (or used to) play nids.

Here is what we determined:

Runes of witnessing says you roll an extra die and discard the highest (doesn't say you roll 3, says you roll an extra die).

Shadows in the warp says you role an extra die.

So RoW would say you roll 4 dice and discard the highest.


I agree. The FAQ for both Tyranids and Eldar was changed some time ago to alter it from "Roll 3d6" to "Roll an extra dice". So you roll 4 dice, remove the highest and then apply any results, such as perils etc.

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 29 2013, 16:30

FAQ for interaction of RoWi and RoW

Quote :
Q: What happens when a Farseer with Runes of Witnessing rolls for his
Psychic test when there is an enemy Farseer with Runes of Warding on
the battlefield? (p26)
A: The two pieces of wargear cancel each other out; neither
takes effect..

Now look at the FAQ for RoW and SotW:

FAQ for RoW

Quote :
Page 26 – Runes of Warding.
Change the last sentence to: “All enemy Psykers must roll an
extra dice when taking Psychic tests, suffering Perils of the
Warp on any roll of 12 or above.”

FAQ for SotW

Quote :
Page 33 – Shadow in the Warp, second paragraph.
Change to “Any enemy psyker within 12” of a Tyranid with the
Shadow in the Warp special rule must roll an extra dice when
taking Psychic tests, and will suffer a Perils of the Warp attack
on the roll of any double 1 or double 6.

so it seems to me RoWi and SotW would cancel each out. Both RoW and SotW almost identical FAQs (except for what you perils on), and the FAQ for interaction of RoWi and RoW is just you roll a normal psychic test.

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 29 2013, 16:45

Quote :
so it seems to me RoWi and SotW would cancel each out. Both RoW and SotW almost identical FAQs (except for what you perils on), and the FAQ for interaction of RoWi and RoW is just you roll a normal psychic test.

I think I will agree with this statement, as both RoWa and SoTW are so similar. I'll play it as this for now.

Well, guess we'll have to just wait for the new eldar codex. Doubt GW will FAQ so close to the new release.
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 29 2013, 17:59

Quote :

so it seems to me RoWi and SotW would cancel each out. Both RoW and SotW almost identical FAQs (except for what you perils on), and the FAQ for interaction of RoWi and RoW is just you roll a normal psychic test.

conceptually totally agree with you on your logic. Tried to make that arguement. However, for RaW, there is nothing to explicitly state that they cancel each other out (i.e. it explicitly states RoWi and RoW cancel each other out, so as written, it is just that those two pieces of wargear cancel), so i lost that debate.

At the end of the day you'll need to chat with your opponent on that one ahead of time to make sure they agree.
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 29 2013, 19:54

thanks for the quick answers guys. so am I to understand that whilst being 12 inches from each other, they pretty much just cancel each other out and we roll off as normal? If i keep 12 inches away from them, they still use 3D6 suffering perils of the warp on a 12 or higher (runes of warding)? Thanks again gentleman

also, one more eldar question. i dont see the night spinner profile anywhere, where is it? im sure this is a really elementary question. Thanks guys

I merged this post with your next; try not to doublepost in the future.
/Your friendly mod SS

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 29 2013, 21:55

Its on Gw's website.

Search nightspinner rules into Google and it should be the first or second result.
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 04:13

Just how exactly do they cancel each other out? Neither rule states you roll one less die, so I am having a hard time understanding exactly how they cancel each other out. The purpose of each rule is to increase the probability of failure for your opponent. I feel allowing them to cancel each other out is robbing eldar players simple because their chance for harm is mitigated by the fact RoWi allows you to discard the highest. No way should they cancel each other out, modifiers should be applied and results worked out as normal. FAQ's say roll an extra die, that's what should take place.
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 09:12

@leapfrog wrote:
Just how exactly do they cancel each other out? Neither rule states you roll one less die, so I am having a hard time understanding exactly how they cancel each other out. The purpose of each rule is to increase the probability of failure for your opponent. I feel allowing them to cancel each other out is robbing eldar players simple because their chance for harm is mitigated by the fact RoWi allows you to discard the highest. No way should they cancel each other out, modifiers should be applied and results worked out as normal. FAQ's say roll an extra die, that's what should take place.

I agree. I don't see that there is really any conflict. You can follow the rules for each without any contradictions.

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 16:46

So we roll 4 dice when within 12 inches?

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 16:55

@doomseer11b wrote:
So we roll 4 dice when within 12 inches?

Yup!

Quote :
Shadow in the Warp
Any enemy psyker within 12” of a Tyranid with the Shadow in the Warp special rule must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, and will suffer a Perils of the Warp attack on the roll of any double 1 or double 6

Quote :
Runes of Warding
All enemy Psykers must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, suffering Perils of the Warp on any roll of 12 or above.

Quote :
Runes of Witnessing
“A Farseer with runes of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests and discards the highest result.

So a Farseer within 12" of a SitW 'Nid rolls 4 dice, discards the highest and suffers perils on any double 1 or double 6 from the remaining dice.


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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 17:15

I'm with Count Adhemar with this one.

I did send a query to GW to clarify whether they should cancel out like RoW and RoWi since the rules are similar. But absent documented changes in the FAQ, there's nothing to say that they should cancel each other.
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 20:56

I dont know, as a previous eldar player and was an avid user of Eldrad. It is slightly offensive that a stupid bug could rival the greatness of Eldrad. As i said before, never played nids prior to this.

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 30 2013, 22:04

Your arrogance will be your downfall. These "stupid bugs" are more than just a mindless rabble of creatures bent on destruction, they are more, much more. Stretching across a vastness of space not yet understood by any race, the hive mind is a collection of untold millenia of battles fought, races destroyed, and worlds consumed. Honor, glory, greatness mean nothing to them. Eldrad is nothing more than a spec in the warp to them. Underestimate them if you dare........
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeWed May 01 2013, 07:28

With Eldrads legendary precognitive abilities, and unsurpassed psychic powers, that spec would be a hard one to swallow. However, i do agree. I have underestimated them twice now and still have no clue how to deal with that dang FMC. Also, his outflanking MC's are quite a nuisance as well. However, I have learned to keep heavy's in the background in case they do decide to pop up unannounced. AND I have found that a webway portal is quite useful against tyrandis in general. If you fancy the Talos, as I do, they are quite useful for stopping the overwhelming spawning of those bugs before they get out of hand. I have been trying to justify bringing a webway, and i think against tyranids they are actually a viable commodity. My most recent game, i had brought 4 venoms, 2 of which had trueborn armed with 3 shardcarbines, and 2 splintercannons each. I wouldve brought more kabalite warriors but since i dont have that many models built i couldnt try it out. The only OTHER problem is im not sure how this would fare against a SM army. I would assume it would still do fairly well, but i will admit that i custom tailored this list to fight them. We considered the game a draw since we couldnt finish and discussed probable outcomes. I had only brought one squad of wyches that i used as a QRF (quick reaction force) but in retrospect wouldve been more useful as an escort for my trueborns. Also, this was my first game using Eldrad with DE. I havent used the new psychic powers and got a little too focused on trying them out then i did paying attention to what was going on. A mistake i wont be making again. My next game i think i will bring a few squads of trueborn out of the webway, and few warriors on venoms. The trueborn will be escorted by wyches in raiders that i will put in front of wherever his bugs will be coming from to block them from assaulting my trueborn, for at least a turn to get some more shooting off. The only problem i have is the genestealers. As they can pop up from anywhere pretty much, they and the FMC are the only two units i havent figured out how to deal with yet.... efficiently. Any thoughts or critiques?

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeWed May 01 2013, 11:25

Genestealers can't assault any more the turn they come into play, and they have a weak armor save, pour fire into them and their threat differential drops off considerably. the only defense against the tervigon is to curse your friends dice before the game, so that he rolls doubles on the first turn, thereby stopping it from spawning more bugs for the rest of the game, after that the next solution is pour high str, low AP into the thing and get rid of it's wounds. it doesn't have an invul save and so must benefit from cover against ap 2/1 weapons.

not sure your going to like running stuff out of a webway against nids, as the nids will just pile in around this potential smorgasbord, and wait for dinner to pop out. letting nids get into hand to hand or shooty range is a mistake. pour fire into them from a distance, the more shots the better. then when the squads are almost all dead, then jump into them for CC.
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeWed May 01 2013, 14:05

I believe he is refering to the ymgarl genestealers. They are an elite version of the genestealer and their special rule allows them to pop up in a piece of predetermined terrain and then assault. To my knowledge they are one of the only units who can still assualt out of reserve. He has to get lucky with his terrain choice to be really effective with these.
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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeWed May 01 2013, 18:30

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@leapfrog wrote:
Just how exactly do they cancel each other out? Neither rule states you roll one less die, so I am having a hard time understanding exactly how they cancel each other out. The purpose of each rule is to increase the probability of failure for your opponent. I feel allowing them to cancel each other out is robbing eldar players simple because their chance for harm is mitigated by the fact RoWi allows you to discard the highest. No way should they cancel each other out, modifiers should be applied and results worked out as normal. FAQ's say roll an extra die, that's what should take place.

I agree. I don't see that there is really any conflict. You can follow the rules for each without any contradictions.

just like there is no conflict between RoW and RoWi??? Yet there exists a stupid FAQ that explains that these two rules cancel each other out.

I agree with you Adhemar, until they came out with that. Its GW being half-assed again with rules and FAQ rulings. Just like how HoW is unmodified strength... except for baron. And no attacks that auto-hit can hit flyers... except for the stormlord (even though Najal who has almost the SAME ability cant)

but it really wouldnt matter to me which way you play, I have played both. Im just putting it out there as an option.

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 04:48

Indeed, the Ymgarl Genestealers. They have rending claws, and have to cycle through some bonuses like +1 strength, +1 toughness or +1 attack.

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PostSubject: Re: runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp   runes of witnessing and shadow of the warp I_icon_minitimeThu May 02 2013, 10:31

@leapfrog wrote:
I believe he is refering to the ymgarl genestealers. They are an elite version of the genestealer and their special rule allows them to pop up in a piece of predetermined terrain and then assault. To my knowledge they are one of the only units who can still assualt out of reserve. He has to get lucky with his terrain choice to be really effective with these.

yeah sorry about that, i meant to mention the Ymgarl's in my posting, but then in the process of typing forgot all about it. the only solution to Ymgarls is to either keep your stuff away from terrain, which does not help us at all since we need the cover saves as well, or keep everything in transports. that way they have to destroy the transport before being able to assault the unit in it, giving you a turn to deal with them, hopefully for the better. however, it's a trade off for your opponent, by taking Ymgarls he's limiting his elite slot and thereby reducing the amount of Zoanthropes and Warriors you'll be facing. i play Nids myself and have about 2K of them and don't use Ymgarls, again low armor save, and i have to get lucky in choosing the terrain they are in before the game, otherwise i have to slog them across the board to where ever, and watch them get shot to death on the way. no thanks. i'll take Hormagants and Zoanthropes anyday.
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