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 BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 16:48

This is the first in a miniseries geared towards playing smaller games (1000pts) on a small board (4x4) with bad terrain (no Line Of Sight Blocking pieces).

Unfortunately I can imagine most of you have all had experience on planet bowling ball as Dark Eldar Players. Maybe your club just likes it that way? Maybe the tournament scene in your area is scarce on terrain?

I can also imagine most of you have played on 4x4 boards. Maybe it's a busy night at the gaming club? Maybe the tournament venue doesn't have enough space? Maybe the tournament organiser thinks small point games should be played on small boards?

Does the above as Dark Eldar players mean we can't compete? Does it mean we have to give way to potent medium shooting range armies like Grey Knights and Necrons? Or static shooting armies like Guard? All of which benefit massively from clear fire lanes and restricted space?

Well that's what this series plans to find out!

The Armies:

Black Buzzards (DE)

HQ
Archon, venom blade, shadow field, haywire

ELITES
3 Grotesques
Raider

TROOPS
10 Warriors, dark lance
Raider
10 Warriors, dark lance
Raider
10 Warriors, dark lance
Raider

HEAVY SUPPORT
Talos, twinlinked liquifier, twinlinked splinter cannon
Talos, twinlinked liquifier, twinlinked splinter cannon

Grey Knights (GK)

HQ
Coteaz

TROOPS
3 warriors, 2 melta
Razorback, twinlinked heavy bolter, search light, psybolt
3 warriors, 2 melta
Razorback, twinlinked heavy bolter, search light, psybolt
3 warriors, 2 flamers
Razorback, twinlinked heavy bolter, psybolt
3 warriors, 2 flamers
Razorback, twinlinked heavy bolter, psybolt

FAST ATTACK
10 interceptors, 2 incinerators

HEAVY
Dreadnought, 2 twinlinked autocannons, psybolt ammunition
Dreadnought, 2 twinlinked autocannons, psybolt ammunition

Mission: Big Guns never tire
Deployment: Dawn of War
Night Fight on first turn: No
First Turn: GK
Warlord Trait DE: Strategic Genius (re-roll reserves)
Warlord Trait GK: Divide and Conquer(-1 to enemy reserves)
Combat Drugs: n/a

Objectives
There were four objectives, two placed in each deployment zone.

Deployment:BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Depk
The grey knights set up a scoring dreadnought on each objective and deployed the razorbacks centrally so they could threaten the whole board with their heavy bolters. The interceptors deployed behind the razorbacks out of sight, they did not combat squad as it would have meant they could have been easy pain tokens for the talos splinter cannons, it also means prescience could affect more models.

In response I deployed my warriors in cover, deploying a talos on the right and the grotesques on the left to protect the warriors from any early aggression from the interceptors. As the grey knights didn't have any AP3 or lower weaponry other than the meltaguns I deployed a talos in the open to grant cover to two raiders. The other raiders were deployed behind the grotesques so that they could get a cover save. Having two raiders near the grotesques meant that even though the raiders were empty they would still need to be targeted during the first turn in order to prevent the grotesques rushing the grey knight line.

Turn 1 (GK):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Gkturn1
The Grey knight army shuffled so that the razorbacks were in range of all the raiders. The Dreadnought on the right managed to shake and immobilise the raider on the far right. The rezorback on the far right fired into the other raider on the left making it explode. The next razorback along fired into the raider directly behind the talos, causing two glances (a pen was saved by the 5+ cover save granted by the talos). The next razorback along fired into the same razorback but failed to do any damage. The last razorback fired into the same raider wrecking it. The dreadnought on the far right couldn't see the raider behind the wrecked raider so fire into one of the talos but failed to hurt it.

Turn 1 (DE):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Deturn1
The warriors on the far left fired at the razorback (containing meltas and coteaz) one from the right but missed. The next warriors along fired at the same razorback missing as well! The warriors on the right fired at the same razorback stunning it. The immobilised raider on the right snap shot but missed. The raider that was undamaged moved and fired at the razorback (containing meltas) on the far right, stunning it as well. With nothing to shoot the talos just ran forward.

Turn 2 (GK):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Gkturn2
The stunned razorbacks both snapshot into the nearest talos but failed to hurt it. The other two razorbacks reversed and fired into the same talos inflicting one wound which the talos saved. The interceptor squad jumped to the left away from the talos and fired, however the two wounds were deflected harmlessly off the talos' carapace. The dreadnought on the right fired into the same talos inflicting a wound. The Dreadnought on the left also fired into the same talos but to no avail.

Turn 2 (DE):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Deturn2
The Archon and groteques jumped into the surviving raider which moved flat out towards the grey knights. The immobilised raider fired into the razorback on the right, but missed. The warriors on the right fired into the same razorback making it explode! The explosion killed two of the acolytes inside. The survivor was mopped up by the splinter cannon of the talos on the left, earning him a pain token. Both warriors on the left fired into the Coteaz's razorback but failed to damage it. The Talos on the right moved forward and charge the oteaz's razorback on the destroying it. Coteaz saved all the wounds form the explosion with his artificer armour.c

Turn 3 (GK):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Gkturn3
Coteaz cast Prescience on the interceptor squad. He then embarked on the razorback behind him. The melta acolytes in the crater fired at the talos in front of them, inflicting two wounds and killing it. The remaining razorbacks reversed and fired into the Archon's raider but only managed to glance it thanks to it's 4+ cover save. The dreadnought on the right fired into the raider making it explode. No one was hurt in the explosion (Go T5, low model count and FNP). The dreadnought on the right manage to wound a single grotesque. The interceptors fired into the Archon and his squad, the Archon tanked three wounds with his shadow field the grotesque saved the other three thanks to cover and FNP. They then charged the Archon and the grotesques. The justicar challenged the Archon, but the Archon refused. The grey knights successfully activated their force weapons, they manage to inflict three wounds, which the Archon saves with his shadow-field. The grotesque fought back killing three grey knights. The grey knights hold.

Turn 3 (DE):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Deturn3
All four warrior squads fired at the two dreadnoughts but fail to do anything. The Talos surged forward and charged the interceptors, rolling a 6 for his number of attack! The justicar challenged the Archon again, this time the Archon accepted, cutting him down before he could strike. The grey knights activate their force weapons and attacked the grots, killing one. The talos unleashes his seven attacks, but only hits with two, and wounds with ones (despite needing to hit on 3+ and wounding on a 2+), killing a single grey knight. The combat was drawn (as the grotesque that was killed only had two wounds).

Turn 4 (GK):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Gkturn4
Not being able to shoot the Archon or the talos in combat the razorbacks moved flat out towards the warriors in the bottom left corner in an attempt to flame them off their objective and capture it themselves. The dreadnoughts fired at the warriors in the right corner in an attempt to make them fall back off the board, they went to ground and took two casualties. In assault the Archon failed to kill any knights. The knights activated their force weapons but failed to inflict any wounds. The grotesques kill three knights. The talos rolled another six for his number of attacks, this time inflicting six wounds (TALOS SMASH!), killing the two remaining Grey Knights. The paintoken was randomised onto the Talos. The Talos consolidated 3" towards the razorbacks, the Archon and his grotesque bodyguard consolidated 4" towards the metla acolytes.

Turn 4 (DE):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Deturn4
The two warrior squads on the left fired their dark lances into the lead razorback destroying it. The explosion killed two of the acolytes, however the surviving acolyte passed both his pinning test and leadership test! The immobilised raider on the right fails to damage the dreadnought on the right, as do the warriors who had gone to ground. The talos moved up to the razorback containing Coteaz and charged, the impact hit failed to penetrate, however he rolled a 5 for his number of attacks, despite three penetrating hits and a glance the razorback was only wrecked. Coteaz and his acolytes disembarked into the terrain on the left. The Archon and his bodyguard charged the melta acolytes killing them all and consolidating 4" towards the dreadnought.

Turn 5 (GK):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Gkturn5
Night didn't fall. Coteaz cast prescience on his squad. Him and his unit then moved away from the talos, running in the shooting phase to get as far away as possible. The dreadnought on the right moved away from the grotesques and fired into them inflicting two wounds, which the Archon used look out sir to shift the wound onto the grotesque to his right. The other dreadnought moved back and fired into the grotesques inflicting two wounds. This left both grotesques on a single wound. The lone acolyte used his run move to get into the piece of terrain on the corner.

Turn 5 (DE):
BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts Deturn5
The warriors on the far left shuffled so that eight of them were in range of the lone acolyte, their splinter fire finishing him off. The lances from the warriors on the right and the immobilised raider managed to glance the dreadnought on the right. The lance on the left failed to damage the dreadnought on the left. The Talos charged the dreadnought on the left overwatch was deflected by it's armour, the S7 impact hit penetrated, and exploded the dreadnought! The Archon threw a haywire grenade at the dreadnought removing a hull point. The two wounds inflicted by overwatch were ignored by FNP. In combat Archon threw another haywire grenade glancing the dreadnought and wrecking it. The game ended, Dark Eldar Victory!

DE VPs: 9 (2 objectives, 2 heavy supports destroyed, line breaker) GK VPs: 1(first blood, 1 heavy support destroyed)

Overview

No reavers! I felt reavers though usable on a small board requires an unconventional list to work at a low points level, and that wouldn't be helpful to the audience these reports are aimed at!

Deployment was really important in this game. Talos and Grotesques are great for providing cover to raiders and venoms (who don't benefit from area terrain) and both units are great deterrents against early aggression.

Target saturation was another important element (something I discussed with Shadow's Revenge before the game, he was spot on the money as usual, thanks Shadow!) and is one of the keys to taking on armies which can outshoot us. The Talos were not an immediate threat, nor were the grotesques so a competent player would ignore them unless he had nothing better to shoot at. To reinforce this the empty raiders, despite being empty, were my main source of mobile AT and mobility. By placing two of the raiders within embarking range of the grotesques I was forcing my opponent to target them or risk the grotesques moving flat out towards his line on my turn.

By grey knight turn two the talos were really exerting a lot of board control. They were close enough that they could not be ignored, on the other hand they were still in a position to protect the warriors from an aggressive interceptor shunt if need be. This is their where talos really come into their own, they let you control space unlike anything else in our codex.

Dark Lances, warriors with dark lances are terrible. That being said they effectively gave me a ravager that couldn't be taken out easily. The list really needed some durable ranged AT, even if it was only to stun or shake a few vehicles before the talos closed in.

Splinter cannons on talos. Even if they only fired once (because of the amount of Mech), it let the talos snap up that invaluable first pain token. It also encouraged my opponent to hide his interceptors on his first turn.

Speaking of my opponent, he made a few mistakes, that we discussed at the end of the game.

The first was not using his interceptors to shoot something on his first turn (even if it exposed them to splinter fire).

The second was not destroying the last mobile raider, even if it meant less shots at the talos.

The third was arguably charging the grotesques. To be fair on this one it look like the right thing to do. He could challenge my Archon meaning he wouldn't be able to use his shadow field to protect the grotesques and he could win combat by a considerable amount thanks to the force weapons causing instant death and each grotesque having three wounds. What he didn't account for was my Archon refusing the challenge. Refusing a challenge doesn't prevent you allocating wounds to the Archon, sure it was risky for me to do that, but it was do or die, a fleeing Archon was no use to me.

Hope you enjoyed the report! Smile

_________________
Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Pragmatic Realspace Raider Series


“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell


Last edited by Mushkilla on Thu May 23 2013, 18:16; edited 2 times in total
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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 17:14

Great report again, Mush. Your best move was really to refuse that challenge. When I read that I thought "what the he... oh... wait... well played, sir, well played!". I think dumb as I am I'd have accepted the challenge for the extra carnage only to realize how dumb that is shortly after the first die was rolled.

Great job and certainly something learned from this game. That and I suddenly feel an urge to get more coven stuff.

Cheers
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 17:33

Dogmar wrote:
Great report again, Mush. Your best move was really to refuse that challenge. When I read that I thought "what the he... oh... wait... well played, sir, well played!". I think dumb as I am I'd have accepted the challenge for the extra carnage only to realize how dumb that is shortly after the first die was rolled.

Thanks! I was lucky I took time to think, I never would have thought of refusing the challenge otherwise, which really saved my bacon. I have to admit the thought of refusing a challenge with an Archon seemed quite odd at first. Smile

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Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Pragmatic Realspace Raider Series


“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 17:57

Mushkilla wrote:
Target saturation was another important element (something I discussed with Shadow's Revenge before the game, he was spot on the money as usual, thanks Shadow!)

I take my thanks in souls or credit card, whichever is easier for you Wink

glad to see it helped you. Yeah we mentioned that he had nothing AP3 or lower other than melta, and it seems your luck with your taloi hasnt changed. They really provided your muscle this game, as well as saving your last raider (which would of changed the game drasticly).

Also its sad to me that he didnt shunt move the interceptors to hit your warriors. He could of gotten away with it, as well as either made you pull back one of your taloi to save your other squads, or stop shooting his dreads with your dark lances... oh well, I guess he will live and learn to be more aggressive.

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Shrike423
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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 18:01

No reavers?

What sorcery is this?! Very Happy

All in all, you played extremely well. Even using tactics that would never occur to me, such as refusing that challenge.

Hmmm... your archon does extremely well in almost every game I have seen him in. Mine isn't like that at all.
He always loses his shadowfield to the first hit every time...

Maybe one day I'll dispose of him and obtain a better general Neutral
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 10:59

First off, thanks for doing these batreps ofcourse. It's awesome that you want to help me (and others) like this.

But by reading this batrep I got the feeling that my matches don't go like this at all. There are a number of things why ofcourse. So let's start with the beginning.

- Your armylist

I don't have any coven stuff yet, because I want to take my time painting it. Plus these 1000 pts practice matches were also intended for me to scale up to 1750 pts which is the standard for our tournamentscene here. I'm having difficulty how I can scale up your current army to 1750 pts. I was using a dakke style list with 2 or 3 Ravagers, lots of Warriors with blasters in Raiders/Venoms and 1 or 2 squads of Wyches in Venoms with haywires.
--> So my 1st question is, do you think the taloi and grotesques were key for you to win this battle?

- Deployment

I have deployed a couple of times like you did, with my troops disembarked from the transports. My opponent manages to destroy 50% on average of all the transports in turn 1 and ussually destroys/shakens/stuns the Ravagers aswell. The 5+s from the flickerfield do not help. The ocassional 4+ from a ruine helps but is never enough. The following turns he mops up the rest.
--> So 2nd question, could you explain in more detail how the deployment helped you surviving the 1st 2 turns?

Then on to the turns...

- Turn 1

Where do I begin with the GK player? Ok, before I begin it's all my humble opinion. And I don't intend to upset ayone, but he should really talk with my regular GK player. Lol. That's not how it goes with me at all... 2 Raiders still on the table??? A miracle. He did have BS4 on everything right? And almost everything is twink linked right?
--> Why did he deploy like this? I want to know his thoughts before diving in...
--> Why didn't he move the dreadnaught as far forward as possible and the left 1 to the left and the right 1 to the right, creating a crossfire lane. Then he could definatly see that 2nd Raider behind the wrecked one.
--> Why didn't he use the shunt move to the piece of terrain in the middle? Who cares if the Talos is close? The whole DE army would be so occupied a turn trying to remove the interceptors. This could' ve bought the GK player time to manouvre to spread out a bit (creating a difficult setting for the diminished army of the DE player) instead of bunched up in the center (easier for such a mobile army to encircle and pounce). Heck, laugh off most of the shots with your 3+ armoursaves and when the Talos assaults I think you strike first!

As for the DE player 1st turn, yeah that's how it ussually goes for me. The surviving stuff doesn't destroy anything (or not enough), which leaves me vunerable turn 2 for a 2nd punishment.

Turn 2

I almost stopped reading.... I swear! Lol. WTF?! How much shots did that single Talos tank? Stuff like this just doesn't happen to me. It would tank a fair share of firepower, sure... But not more than average. And die. GK player can focus the rest on the 2nd Talos and probably kill it too! This is seriously not how my games go man!
--> Why, again, did the GK player move backwards? You bundled up in a nice little package for the DE player to digest. If the dreads would've been more forward in turn 1, they could've charged the Talos this turn. Keeping him occupied... Or, ignore the Talos, move forward and start heading for the Warriors. They have 1 DL to hurt the dreadnaught. Imagine what would happen if u get in assault!

As for the DE player... Sure, you can fire a single DL and blow up a razorback. Lol. Stuff like this just doesn't happen to me man. I must be unlucky or something.

Turns 3 to ....

Yeah and then it goes on and on. 6 attacks on your Talos, sure. 7 attacks on your Talos, why not. Lol. Lucky bastard. Nah... I'm not bitter. Razz

Brilliant move on refusing the challenge though. Didn't know you can tank the wounds on the Archon in that case though. Are you sure about that? I' ll read the part about Challenges when I get home from work this evening...

The mistakes you already mentioned about the GK player should be adressed next game. You really need a good challenge. Wink

Thanks for writing it. And i'm awaiting the next installment. Smile


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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 12:09

tlronin wrote:
I don't have any coven stuff yet, because I want to take my time painting it. Plus these 1000 pts practice matches were also intended for me to scale up to 1750 pts which is the standard for our tournamentscene here.

There must have been a misunderstanding on my part here. I thought you were practising for 1000 point tournaments that are played on a 4x4 board. I didn't realise you are practising at 1000pts on a 4x4 board with no terrain to help you train for 1750pt games on a 6x4 board. How does playing 1000pts on a 4x4 board help you for 1750pt games on a 6x4 board? They are two completely different games.

Personally I think you're wasting your time practising for bigger games on such a small board as Dark Eldar play completely differently on a larger board, as do grey knights. All this will do is get you comfortable on a small board, and then have to relearn the game and/or change your play style for the larger boards.

tlronin wrote:
So 2nd question, could you explain in more detail how the deployment helped you surviving the 1st 2 turns?

Giving my raiders cover saves, preventing casualties from exploding transports, and forcing target saturation.

tlronin wrote:
That's not how it goes with me at all... 2 Raiders still on the table??? A miracle. He did have BS4 on everything right? And almost everything is twink linked right?

Whether the raiders die or not, is irrelevant the idea behind the list is that you want your opponent to target the raiders instead of the talos.

tlronin wrote:
Why didn't he use the shunt move to the piece of terrain in the middle? Who cares if the Talos is close? The whole DE army would be so occupied a turn trying to remove the interceptors.

I think your are seriously underestimating the Talos here. The talos have twinlinked liquifiers you are taking a serious risk closing on them. Worse you are giving them free movement by letting them charge you. Force weapons or not 5-7 (assuming a few casualties from splinter fire and liquifiers) S4 force weapon attacks have little chance of doing anything to a talos. Not to mention chances are your giving the talos the ideal two phase combat. You would also be within range of the warriors.

All in all I think that would have been a bad move on the Grey Knights part, but then again that's just my opinion.

tlronin wrote:
If the dreads would've been more forward in turn 1, they could've charged the Talos this turn. Keeping him occupied... Or, ignore the Talos, move forward and start heading for the Warriors. They have 1 DL to hurt the dreadnaught. Imagine what would happen if u get in assault!

How would the dreadnought hold the talos up by charging it? The dreadnought has two S6 AP- attacks, three on the charge. The talos is WS5 hitting on 3s and can smash attack. Chances are the dreadnought won't last two turns. Not to mention you are handing the Dark Eldar player victory points, and sacrificing your most resilient scoring units (big guns never tire).

tlronin wrote:
Yeah and then it goes on and on. 6 attacks on your Talos, sure. 7 attacks on your Talos, why not. Lol. Lucky bastard. Nah... I'm not bitter. Razz

Your focusing too much on the dice rolls, sure my talos had 7 attacks, but he only killed one grey knight with them. The second time he rolled a 6, it wasn't needed as there were only two grey knights to kill anyway.

tlronin wrote:
As for the DE player... Sure, you can fire a single DL and blow up a razorback. Lol. Stuff like this just doesn't happen to me man. I must be unlucky or something.

Again you are focusing on a specific dice roll. Over the course of a game 20 dark lance shots did a total of: two penetrating hits that were stuns, two penetrating hit that were explosions, one glancing hit against AV11. On average I should have got 6.66 penetrating hits and 2.22 glancing hits. If anything my lances were under performing!

In summary

Yes my opponent wasn't the best. I'll try and find better next time.

Does your opponents list have the melta guns in it? The grey knight player added those as it made sense (otherwise his list would have no way to deal with AV14) and seeing as it's supposed to be a tournament list it should be able to take on a variety of opponents. If not then he is just tailoring for Dark Eldar.

Again this seems like a waste of time if you are practising for 1750 point games. Seriously grey knights have a lot less range on a 6x4 board and Dark Eldar have a lot more space to manoeuvre.

If you wanted to practice with a smaller points then at least use a 6x4 board, so what if the standard 1000 point tournament game is on a 4x4 board, you are not practising for 1000 point tournament. You are practising for a 1750 point tournament on a 6x4 board so the fact that 1000 point tournament games are on a 4x4 board is irrelevant.

No offence but it really sounds like your opponent is just messing with you. Especially considering he told you if you can't deal with it you should play another army.

Anyway sorry this report was not what you expected/wanted. That's my fault. I'll try and fix it for the next game. Embarassed

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Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 12:23

Mushkilla wrote:
No offence but it really sounds like your opponent is just messing with you. Especially considering he told you if you can't deal with it you should play another army.

I have to agree. Tlronin, everything you have said about your opponent just makes me think he is taking advantage and slanting everything in his favour. He's using a tailored list on a tailored table with tailored terrain - no wonder he's kicking your butt! Do you have the opportunity to play against anyone else?

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 12:32

Mushkilla wrote:
Anyway sorry this report was not what you expected/wanted. That's my fault. I'll try and fix it for the next game. Embarassed

Quick response, ' cause I feel really bad now. Reading your response quickly I get the feeling I've offended you a little. I didn't mean to at all. Very Happy I think it's great that you wanted to do this series in the 1st place. I mean, why bother for someone you just know through a forum on the i-net right? Wink But you bothered and I'm gratefull.
So if anything, I think it's my fault because obviously some things weren't clear from the offset.

Guess you're right about the whole 4x4 and 4x6 thing, I've never looked at it that way. I thought I should be able to win nomatter the size of the table or the points.

Let's just see what your opponent can do next time and we' ll take it from there.

@Count Adhemar:

Luckily I have. And I ussually win from these opponents. So losing to him all the time sucks. Very Happy

I agree though that I hate his terrain (I like mine better) and I hate his lists (chuckfull of cheese).

I didn't think that he was really slanting everything in his favor (because he keeps mentioning that tournaments have even less and worse terrain), but I hated his terrainpieces from day 1 I must say.

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 13:05

tlronin wrote:
Reading your response quickly I get the feeling I've offended you a little. I didn't mean to at all. Very Happy

Not at all. Smile

tlronin wrote:
Guess you're right about the whole 4x4 and 4x6 thing, I've never looked at it that way. I thought I should be able to win nomatter the size of the table or the points.

You can but the game wouldn't be balanced if your chances were more than 50% against a skilled opponent. On a small table, with no terrain, against an army that can outshout you, it will come down to the who goes first dice roll though. If you don't want that you have to field more resilient units. You can't expect glass cannon units like blasterborn, ravagers and venoms to be able to recover from an alpha strike without adequate terrain or space to manoeuvre, especially if said alpha strike is made all the more potent by the lack of terrain and the small board.

This is where talos (and coven units in general) come into their own, so what if they are not ravagers? All your ravagers will be dead before they can shoot. a triple talos list has a good chance of beating most things under these conditions, the main reason I only used two was so that the list was more scalable (no point getting used to three talos at 1000pts when they have to survive a lot more fire at 1500pts).

But yeah different game "settings" require different "approaches" there's no one size fits all in 40k, at least in my experience.

tlronin wrote:
Let's just see what your opponent can do next time and we' ll take it from there.

Do you want me to use the same list? Do you want me to play on the same style of board? What do you think will benefit you the most?


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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 13:32

Mushkilla wrote:


Do you want me to use the same list? Do you want me to play on the same style of board? What do you think will benefit you the most?


At this moment what I would love to see I think is how you would indeed do with a list with nothing but Warriors, Wyches, Raiders, Venoms, Ravagers and an Archon as HQ. On a 4x4 table, so same. Against the same GK opponent (or a more experienced one). Same terrain kinda (does not have to be the exact same configuration ofcourse). Blasters/Dark Lances, Huskblade/Venom Blade, Haywire grenades/or not... Are all choices I leave to you. It's important you make these choices with an all commers mentality in mind.

I hope this way I can gain some insight in the inner workings of my own lists and choices. Hopefully I see the errors I make/made and improve accordingly. I notice I see it better with other people's games then in my own games...

Thank you in advance for sticking with this.

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 14:20

tlronin wrote:
At this moment what I would love to see I think is how you would indeed do with a list with nothing but Warriors, Wyches, Raiders, Venoms, Ravagers and an Archon as HQ. On a 4x4 table, so same.

I'll tell you the result now. I'll go second, I'll lose. I'll go first, I'll win.

That's a shooting list with no solid anchor or resilient elements, it depends on going first and doesn't even have the baron to make it more likely. You can't out shoot that grey knight list if you go second, let alone when you have no space to manoeuvre and no terrain to hide behind. You need something to shake things up a bit, whether it's beasts, harlies, grotesques, talos, incubi or reavers.

That being said 1000 point games don't take too long so no harm in trying. I just don't fancy my chances.

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 18:20

Mushkilla wrote:
I'll tell you the result now. I'll go second, I'll lose. I'll go first, I'll win.
I agree, you'll be falling on your sword with a game like that. A straight up bland shooty DE list with none of the support units you mention (talos, reavers etc) will really struggle under such conditions vs a GK (or IG) list that will always be able to out-shoot it.

On the game, yes the decision to refuse the challenge was a cracking move (when I read it, I too thought- huh?). But the best points spent has to go to the HWG on the Archon - for when your boss leaves his trusty blaster in the weapons locker. Also good to remind people that you can effectively use them twice in your turn, by chucking one in the shooting phase before the assault.

Also a smart move giving your archon a choice of raiders to embark on. Have to remember that one!

Regarding your issue with the overpriced and (frankly) rubbish single DL in the warrior squads, you could try some small trueborn or scourge squads with multiple DLs (<100pts each usually). You'll have to strip down the troops a bit, but then they're really only there as objective holders anyway - going to ground if someone looks at them funny. You could mix in some mini wracks units.
Although I did laugh when one of the warrior squads woke up at the end, remembering that there was a battle (or whatever) going on, and moved out of cover to murder the lone henchman. Yeah, we earned this pain token, lads!

I will say that your Talos always seem to suck up an amazing amount of damage; talk about scary for your opponent! You don't need 'It will not die', as they already won't Cool

You should definitely try the same vs a horrible IG or SW list

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 18:53

@Mushkilla + Squierboy:

Well maybe that has been my problem all along then. Been fielding a list as if I'm playing a 4x6 table with enough space and terrain.
Just to be clear, didn't try to outshoot the IG or GK list per se. That's what I had 2 to 3 squads of Wyches for in Venoms. But seeing you two post it seems that is not enough.

Last but not least, agreed on the horrible IG and SW lists. The more horrible the better. Makes you prepared for nasty battles to come. Maybe in the nearby future a battle against that winning Cron list at Adepticon 2013.

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 19:21

Shadows Revenge wrote:
as well as either made you pull back one of your taloi to save your other squads

I missed this in my last post, but it's a really good point. This might have made a big difference. Not sure whether I would have retreated a Talos or just let the warriors burn. Tough one.

Squierboy wrote:
Also a smart move giving your archon a choice of raiders to embark on. Have to remember that one!

It's something I have only just started experimenting with, but it seems like it's got some potential. The Archon driveway: which ride will it be today?

Squierboy wrote:
You should definitely try the same vs a horrible IG or SW list

Space wolves will be a challenge for sure, talos have a serious allergy to missile launchers.

tlronin wrote:
Been fielding a list as if I'm playing a 4x6 table with enough space and terrain

It's surprising how much of a difference it makes.

tlronin wrote:
That's what I had 2 to 3 squads of Wyches for in Venoms. But seeing you two post it seems that is not enough.

That's the thing, sadly wyches don't quite cut it, they have always been a mediocre assault unit (a decent tarpit though). Add flamer acolytes (or chimera's with heavy flamers) and the wyches are no threat at all. Those acolytes sole job is to sit in their razorbacks and jump out when your wyches get close. Effectively 64 points of acolyte countering all your wyches as they make it very risky for you to close in for the assault. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 25 2013, 00:23

Nice report as always mushkilla.

I gotta say I feel the GK player made good/common choices, with a few things anyone might nitpick in hindsight but im sure he had his reasons. Right and wrong is often determined by who has a "W" at the end of the battle.

Your list was obviously tailored to the board and [lack of] terrain, which is exactly as it should be. Building a list to take on marines isnt "list tailoring" if your entire meta is meq. Same goes when considering board size and terrain.

If anything this batrep illustrates how terrain or lack of can impact every aspect of the game. Personally I do not enjoy playing with or against armies that are as static as the GK list is designed to function and in such a barren landscape.
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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 25 2013, 07:44

@Mushkilla

Concerning the Wyches, yeah tell me 'bout it. Lol. Deploying disembarked with them for cover was not an option. Letting them embarked in an exploding Raider or Venom was also disastrous. But they were the cheapest option for 1000 pts I could find. So I left the Incubi at home.
But don't worry, I've already learned a lot by talking to you and some others and your batrep. It's clear I've been going at it the wrong way... I' ll explain later in the post what I think went wrong.

@Brom

To be honest I always built my lists with marines in mind, 'cause you'll encounter them half of the time.

Quote :
Personally I do not enjoy playing with or against armies that are as static as the GK list is designed to function and in such a barren landscape.

I don't enjoy it either. In fact, I hate it. But it's my understanding that the Dutch tournament scene lacks good terrain and so the tables are always a bit barren. I was practiscing for these conditions.

@Brom & Mush (and whom it may concern)

Quote :
Your list was obviously tailored to the board and [lack of] terrain, which is exactly as it should be.

I was thinking about that. Is thi in your opinion a fact for Dark Eldar (so certain types of armies) or is this for all armies in 40k? I ask this because I believe IG players and GK players simply scale down their armies with the same nasty stuff in it. Wether you play 1750 pts or 1000 pts. Lots of big ruines akin to city fight, or a barren dessert. Am I mistaking in this?

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 25 2013, 09:44

tlronin wrote:
I was thinking about that. Is thi in your opinion a fact for Dark Eldar (so certain types of armies) or is this for all armies in 40k? I ask this because I believe IG players and GK players simply scale down their armies with the same nasty stuff in it. Wether you play 1750 pts or 1000 pts. Lots of big ruines akin to city fight, or a barren dessert. Am I mistaking in this?

Well I would have thought the GK player would not use acolytes seeing as razorpsam has issues against a few armies out there, and in bigger games you need those troops, but someone with tournament experience should probably confirm that for me as it's just a hunch.

The common theme of those two armies are they are Mech spam armies, that spam AV12/AV11, they are also shooting armies, so they don't want LoS blocking terrain and have some mobility naturally. The big thing is because they are all in metal boxes they don't give a rat's ass about the state of the board as long as it doesn't have "too much good terrain on it", so in that sense they are already tailored to planet bowling ball (the less terrain the better they perform). Neither GK or IG need space to manoeuvre or dance around their opponent, so the fact that the board is small doesn't bother them.

The same can be said for power armour armies, lack of terrain doesn't bother them (unless they run into a lot of AP2-3 weaponry) as they are running around with 3+ saves and are T4. So again they don't need to change their armies much for small boards or bad terrain.

Contrary to the above, Dark Eldar are a mechanised army that has AV10 open topped vehicles, these don't offer much inherent protection, in fact it's more dangerous to be in them than outside them. The whole army is T3 5+ across the book. The army is designed to win using manoeuvre warfare. They rely on dancing around their opponents at range, or a positional advantage on a single flank against a spread out force. Smaller games means the enemy force is less likely to be spread out, smaller boards means there is no space to dance or get out of range and again the enemy force is less likely to be spread out. Finally lack of terrain means the mobility that is supposed to grant us survivability (skimmers) is irrelevant as theirs no terrain to "jump over" and/or hide behind.

At the end of the day the Dark Eldar army is built to get the most out of terrain with their massive freedom of movement, whilst the same terrain hinders their opponents, by blocking firing lanes and obstructing movement.

At least that's my view, but I'm sure others will chip in with theirs.

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 26 2013, 20:43

tlronin wrote:
I don't enjoy it either. In fact, I hate it. But it's my understanding that the Dutch tournament scene lacks good terrain and so the tables are always a bit barren. I was practiscing for these conditions.

Every TO I've met so far has been appreciative of people who bring an extra table or two worth of terrain, so long as there's communication about it and you don't slow down their set-up time.

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 27 2013, 11:32

Nice batrep Very Happy. I know how you feel about the small boards. I did another conflict practice tournament last night on 4x4 boards (report going up soon!), and really feel that the 4x4 nature gives DE a disadvantage as it neutralises our biggest edge, since we can't use our speed. That, and range against a GK army, as they're primarily a 24" range force. Pop the few things with longer range, and then outdistance them

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 27 2013, 11:51

Panic_Puppet wrote:
Nice batrep Very Happy. I know how you feel about the small boards...

The 4x4 board really makes mid range armies like GK/NEC/SW more potent, whilst hindering us. If I was taking DE to a 4x4 tournament I would run three talos, monstrous creatures really shine at low points and on small boards. People will be taking Riptides, Tervigons, Greater Daeomns, Dread Knights and Flyrants. Talos with splinter cannons are brutal at shooting down MC and shooting stuff up, and most armies will be hard pressed to take them down as long as you're careful with them.

What's the point value for conflict 1250?

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 27 2013, 17:03

1250, yeah. There were two of us undefeated last night (my DE, and one of the staff's Tau) and I edged it with painting scores, so we're going to have a throwdown on Monday on a 6x4 board to see how we do, as the small board negated our biggest strengths (his range, and my mobility). GK henchman spam (5 x 10) is brutal on a 4x4, especially when they're bunkered behind a defence line...

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 28 2013, 13:45

Good to hear you did well. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 16:53

Great battle report!...But I think wyches in venoms would have done better for you then the warriors.

But, that could just be my play style.

What I was very impressed with was the Taloi. Those things were monsters!

Also, the grots didn't do bad themselves, however, why did you take them over incubi, might I ask?

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PostSubject: Re: BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts   BR24: The Black Buzzards VS Grey Knights - 1000pts I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 17:34

Korazell wrote:
Great battle report!...But I think wyches in venoms would have done better for you then the warriors.

Thanks, though the list would not work with venoms and wyches. I needed the four raiders to ensure that the grots had a transport in order to get to the enemy. Grots won't fit in a venom. This also meant the units that came with the raiders would be on foot and need to have ranged weapons in order to contribute to the battle (as the raiders would start empty and would be shot at first turn).

Korazell wrote:
What I was very impressed with was the Taloi. Those things were monsters!

They are a fantastic but sadly underused unit. Probably the most reliable anti tank in our codex once they get there.

Korazell wrote:
Also, the grots didn't do bad themselves, however, why did you take them over incubi, might I ask?

Grots are T5 against shooting, and have FNP. Making them a lot more survivable than incubi.

Hope that helps. Smile

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